Civil War #7

[pv_2]

Well we've been promised a major death - that sounds morbid, doesn't it? - at the end of Civil War #7. Hell, there's a whole 5-issue mini already solicited to deal with the aftermath. We've ruled out Cap (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3568) as a possibility, and can do the same for anyone on either of the already revealed Avengers (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3606) rosters (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3395). And now there's evidence that it won't be MJ or Aunt May (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3950) either.

So if it's not any of these characters, who will it be? And maybe more interestingly, who should it be?

[iSteve]

Can we truly rule out Cap? Just because his title series will continue doesn't necessarily mean that he will. I'm wondering if Cap dies, then the Winter Soldier/Bucky takes over.

[fred]

should be: Reed Richards
why: cause I don't like him

will be: someone on the level of Arachne or Dagger
why: cowardly desire not to change anything too much

proof: last major death was Black Goliath
who the hell is he: I have no idea

[kwok_talk]

Possibles: I agree with Fred that Reed could be on that list. I think Sue is a viable option. There’s been no sight of either post-CW, so the death of one could force the other to take some time off. I’ll toss Falcon as another potential?

Probables: One of the Young Avengers. (One a side note, have any issues been put out since the Runaways crossover?)

Dark Horse: Captain Marvel. Quickest comeback ever. (granted saying that didn’t do Black Goliath any good)

I can't get enough of this speculation.

[fred]

Probables: One of the Young Avengers. (One a side note, have any issues been put out since the Runaways crossover?)


I think that I heard that it wasn't coming back until after CW and whenever Heinberg had time to work on it

[luthor]

Just a couple of guesses:

Franklin Richards - I know it's a long shot, but it would have a profound effect in the "hero" community on both sides.

Tony Stark - makes the most sense. Would be considered a martyr for the pro reg side if he died in battle.

Peter Parker - Yes, there's a Spider-man after CW, but do we know it's Peter?

[iSteve]

What about Tony Stark? There can still be an Iron Man even if Stark dies. Also, death (and future resurrection) will go a long way to redeem Tony.

[fred]

marvel would get the shitheads of the year award if they killed franklin richards

[kwok_talk]

Just a couple of guesses:

Franklin Richards - I know it's a long shot, but it would have a profound effect in the "hero" community on both sides.



Would his death scene be in the Calvin & Hobbes - esque art style that they have going on for the Franklin comic strips?

[luthor]

Just had another idea...

J. Jonah Jameson - Fits the bill of a major death and could possibly be the "horrible thing" that happens to Peter Parker.

[iSteve]

Just had another idea...

J. Jonah Jameson - Fits the bill of a major death and could possibly be the "horrible thing" that happens to Peter Parker.

How would Jameson's death be horrible for Peter?

[fred]

Just had another idea...

J. Jonah Jameson - Fits the bill of a major death and could possibly be the "horrible thing" that happens to Peter Parker.

that would push Reign out of continuity, not that it is now but it would make it never possible

[luthor]

How would Jameson's death be horrible for Peter?

If Peter somehow accidentally killed JJ at the peak of the battle, it could easily be spun to show that everything that Jonah has every said about Spider-man is true.

[kwok_talk]

that would push Reign out of continuity, not that it is now but it would make it never possible

Not to go off tangent, but I just read the last issue of Reign. I had no idea what was going on (I haven’t read any of the other issues), but I got to the end thinking it was awesome.

[fred]

you should read the first 2. It's great

[kwok_talk]

If Peter somehow accidentally killed JJ at the peak of the battle, it could easily be spun to show that everything that Jonah has every said about Spider-man is true.

What about Ben Ulrich? We know he would be close to the scene of the battle.

[iSteve]

I still think that it has to be a major character, not the B-listers like Ulrich.

[fred]

I still think that it has to be a major character, not the B-listers like Ulrich.

urich is way less b list than goliath

[k33k3r]

Well if anyone does die they probably won't be dead for long as always in the marvel universe.

I'm thinking it might be the reporters getting caught in the crossfire. But who knows...

[fred]

also though urich, jameson - people like that have less opportunites to believably be resurrected

what do they do? bring urich back as an evil mutant?

well it did work with madelyn prior

work is a strong word

[JAFlanagan]

Civil War 7:

1. Medium Shot: A door opens

2. Closer: A hand appears on the handle.

3. The door opens.

4. Hawkeye enters, waving.

HAWKEYE

Hey everyone, I'm ba-

SFX: ZZZAAAPPPP!!!!

5. Medium Shot: Iron Man holds his smoking gauntlet in front of him.

IRON MAN

Aw crap! Sorry, sorry. My bad! Thought it was Kang. Whoops!

[kwok_talk]

Civil War 7:

1. Medium Shot: A door opens

2. Closer: A hand appears on the handle.

3. The door opens.

4. Hawkeye enters, waving.

HAWKEYE

Hey everyone, I'm ba-

SFX: ZZZAAAPPPP!!!!

5. Medium Shot: Iron Man holds his smoking gauntlet in front of him.

IRON MAN

Aw crap! Sorry, sorry. My bad! Thought it was Kang. Whoops!

Ha! Don't worry, he'll be back in Avengers (again) before the year is over.

[iSteve]

urich is way less b list than goliath

Make Urich a C or D-lister then.

[humphrey-lee]

Jesus will come back, and scold the supes for their actions, but in the middle of his holy diatribe, Clor will shoot him through the chest and down him. After rounds "Oh shit! They killed Jesus! You Bastards!!" And then the real Thor comes down and lays the smackdown on Clor and gives everyone the same scolding but in Thor speak and everyone's like "oooh Snap! Thor's right everyone. Let's all go down to the pub."


......... god I'm an idiot.

[iSteve]

Jesus will come back, and scold the supes for their actions, but in the middle of his holy diatribe, Clor will shoot him through the chest and down him. After rounds "Oh shit! They killed Jesus! You Bastards!!" And then the real Thor comes down and lays the smackdown on Clor and gives everyone the same scolding but in Thor speak and everyone's like "oooh Snap! Thor's right everyone. Let's all go down to the pub."


......... god I'm an idiot.

Not bad, not bad at all. As plausible as any of our @#$%^&* theories.

[jimski]

HAWKEYE

Hey everyone, I'm ba-

SFX: ZZZAAAPPPP!!!!

5. Medium Shot: Iron Man holds his smoking gauntlet in front of him.
[/CENTER]

Not like that. Not like that!

I hope it's Ronin.

Seriously, though: say what you want about Marvel's Mad Marketers, but the hype machine works to the extent that... well, let me put it this way:

In Ye Olden Dayes, you'd get a comic, and the last panel would be of MJ and Aunt May in the crosshairs of a high-powered sniper rifle. You'd eagerly buy the next issue, but never for a second would you actually think either woman was about to die. "How will Spidey get 'em outta this one?" you'd say, at best. Now you're all, "They might do it. The crazy f****ers might do it! They're capable of anything, the bloodthirsty ghouls!"

So, they've got that going for them.

Now, at the same time, you've got Joey Cheese* saying "dead means dead," but not a ton of people taking that seriously anymore either. I guess that acts as a counterbalance.

If I spent as much time reading comics as I spent reading about them in advance, I would have a rich, full life.

*isn't there some kind of etymological similarity between "Quesada" and the Spanish word for cheese? What? I never took Spanish, and should go back to my Russian books? Very well.

[kwok_talk]

Is it for certain that a hero dies? What about a baddy?

[fred]

queso vs Quesada

close

think quesada could mean melted cheese or something

anyone?

[fred]

Is it for certain that a hero dies? What about a baddy?

I say it's danny bonaduce
I've been predicting his death for years

[jurassicalien]

Well over at IGN Jeph Loeb does an interview and explains Fallen Son, and gives each character a diffrent cycle

Wolverine: Denial
New and Mighty Avengers: Anger
Captain America: Bargaining
Spider-Man: Depression

And though Loeb doesn't say Solicis says it's
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::PO SSIBLESPOILER::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::






Iron Man: Acceptances








So who could die that would make these five characters feel this way? Let's say everyone stays the same (Steve Rogers is Cap and Tony Starke is Iron Man)

[fred]

it's gotta be bonaduce then

[conorkilpatrick]

Ha! Don't worry, he'll be back in Avengers (again) before the year is over.

Some might say he's already in the Avengers this month....

[fred]

that question will be answered at some point in the next 12 issues if echo is used as a guide

[conorkilpatrick]

Who dies in Civil War #7?

Another small piece of my soul*.


* Which, according to Ron and Josh is as black as my non-Strangers in Paradise loving heart.

[humphrey-lee]

Who dies in Civil War #7?

Another small piece of my soul*.


* Which, according to Ron and Josh is as black as my non-Strangers in Paradise loving heart.

The key is to sell your soul for something redeemable, like candy! That way, whenever something like Civil War comes out, you can down your spiritual tootsie roll or whatever have you, and bask in the joy of said candy and having to worry about the effects of the horrid writing quality on your essence... which is probably being ass raped in hell by a demon with two penises..... best not to think about that part...

[fred]

there's a hell of a lot of ass-raping going on here today

[six-gun]

Can we truly rule out Cap? Just because his title series will continue doesn't necessarily mean that he will. I'm wondering if Cap dies, then the Winter Soldier/Bucky takes over.

Dude, that was my theory on iFanboy a while back!:)

[k-dizzle]

spoiler warning
so is stilt man dead an gone forever? I think not, guess what suckers, hes Ronin! read it again, his legs were huge in that splash page!

[fred]

it's bonaduce

[k-dizzle]

it's bonaduce uh Danny? Im lost.

[fred]

and danny bonaduce as the Ronin

good one bendis

[orlov]

Me, if I am not blown away by this issue.

[mister-s]

Who's going to die? Um, my pride, my dignity - all for sticking this book out for the whole run.

But in reality - my vote is Captain Marvel. He just got back anyways...

[conorkilpatrick]

But in reality - my vote is Captain Marvel. He just got back anyways...

That would be awesome. Bring him back one month, kill him (again) the next. Comic stores would be littered with the bodies of people whose brains exploded from rage.

[fred]

I would start a slow clap

[jurassicalien]

Well if that were to happen, I'd feel like I had to go buy the Return, which I'm avoiding...but that would be a gutsy move, and awesome.

And it'd have to be like bad, not cancer or anything like Marvel's saying...but he gets killed by...Galactus.

[conorkilpatrick]

Well if that were to happen, I'd feel like I had to go buy the Return, which I'm avoiding...but that would be a gutsy move, and awesome.

And it'd have to be like bad, not cancer or anything like Marvel's saying...but he gets killed by...Galactus.

Or he slips in the shower and hits his head on the adamantium tub and dies. Something really mundane like that.

[k33k3r]

Wouldn't shock me at all with the way Marvel is finishing off this event. I would probably just laugh and petition to be refunded for the entire event...

[kwok_talk]

Or he slips in the shower and hits his head on the adamantium tub and dies. Something really mundane like that.

He sneezes and has an aneurysm.

[jurassicalien]

Bee Sting, we find out, he's totally allergic, like Macaulay Culkin in My Girl.

[fred]

Here it is:

Beast goes feral, bites Marvel in the ass, he dies of an infection.

(Cats have very filthy mouths. You can lose a leg to a cat bite. No bullshit)

[baxter]

I think the Marvel Universe Paul Jenkins will die.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/epfender/na720spoiler.jpg

[jurassicalien]

Totally, Jenkins dying will be what drives Spidey into his black costume, he'll be crushed.

[fred]

he''l be hit with the Organic webshooters as they fly from PP's body

[jo-relrollins]

He sneezes and has an aneurysm.

That would rock. And we wouldn't have to watch Marvel figure out where the hell he fits in.



Well over at IGN Jeph Loeb does an interview and explains Fallen Son, and gives each character a diffrent cycle

Wolverine: Denial
New and Mighty Avengers: Anger
Captain America: Bargaining
Spider-Man: Depression

And though Loeb doesn't say Solicis says it's
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::PO SSIBLESPOILER::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::






Iron Man: Acceptances








So who could die that would make these five characters feel this way? Let's say everyone stays the same (Steve Rogers is Cap and Tony Starke is Iron Man)

Who in the hell would make Wolverine go into denial? Now they're really making me curious about whose going to kick the can. U know i'm glad noone thinks that when u turn to the last page of CW 7 and on the last panel, on the bottom, all the way to the right, that ur gonna see Jean Grey. I thought i'd say it and say its NOT GONNNA HAPPEN before someone else does. :D :p

[jimski]

Who in the hell would make Wolverine go into denial?

It could be Norah Jones. That chanteuse's tender song stylings could melt even the hardest heart.

[conorkilpatrick]

It could be Norah Jones. That chanteuse's tender song stylings could melt even the hardest heart.

Okay, now I don't want to fight you anymore.

Wait, did I want to fight you before? I don't think I did. That was all Josh's instigating...

I'm so tired and confused.

[cammyknoxville]

Aunt May should die.

Why?

CAUSE SHE'S SO GODDAMN OLD!!!!

[fred]

Aunt May should die.

Why?

CAUSE SHE'S SO GODDAMN OLD!!!!

she was like 60 in 1963 so that makes her ....

approx. 104

you might be right

(and yes I know that time doesn't move the same in comics)

[k33k3r]

Wow I never did the math but that is crazy.

But as you said the timeline in comics is always screwed up.

[conorkilpatrick]

Wow I never did the math but that is crazy.

She's a Doombot.

[fred]

She's a Doombot.

I think you mean 'Sexy Doombot'

[k33k3r]

She's a Doombot.

Ahhhh I see, it all makes sense now......

[cammyknoxville]

I think you mean 'Sexy Doombot'

total GILF

[fred]

I so hate that I know what you mean by that

[don-c-]

I think either Reed or Sue Richards is the likely candidate. I would go with Sue, because, well, that could lead to a lot of great storylines.

[k33k3r]

Reed goes depressive and goes on a bindge and goes at it with Torch.

Could be kinda funny.

[watsonglenn]

I would like to see the Sentry die. He just does not fit in the MU and his death could be done in such a way as to have a major impact.

[paper]

Paul Jenkins (the character) should go nuclear in the closing pages of Civil War 7, endangering an entire town in Connecticut. Sentry should then scoop him up and fly him to outer space in one final act of sacrifice. They would explode somewhere in the ionosphere, taking all memory of the Sentry with them.

[jimmyp]

Could you read Civil War without reading many (or any) or the tie-ins? Or should I start with House of M (could you read that without any of the tie-ins?), or Avengers Disassembled? Argh! Way way too much.

[fred]

I think either Reed or Sue Richards is the likely candidate. I would go with Sue, because, well, that could lead to a lot of great storylines.

according to tonight's Joe Friday's she's a player in the summer X-Event

[fred]

Could you read Civil War without reading many (or any) or the tie-ins? Or should I start with House of M (could you read that without any of the tie-ins?), or Avengers Disassembled? Argh! Way way too much.


You can read it without House of M and Avengers Disassembled. They just say that to get you to buy more books.

[jimski]

I categorically declare, no matter what anyone else tells you, that you can absolutely read Civil War all by itself. In addition, there are several tie-ins that you could read and enjoy without reading Civil War. People will give you advice contrary to this; they are agitators, and do not have your best interests at heart. Trust only in me.

[jo-relrollins]

Could you read Civil War without reading many (or any) or the tie-ins? Or should I start with House of M (could you read that without any of the tie-ins?), or Avengers Disassembled? Argh! Way way too much.

To be truthful with you, they said that M Day and the House of M helped cause this,but i don't see it. I mean, noone except a select few even know that the House of M happened, and only XFactor knows the cause of M Day and Decimation. So who knows. Oh and to answer ur question, if u read Avengers Disassembled and House of M, then ur jumping into the 198 thing. Which leads to this summers XMen event. The Civil War thing stems from the Illumanati one shot and last summers Spider Man began the whole thing (if i'm correct, i don't remember which issue i have it somewhere). Also check out the New Warriors mini, those idiots started this whole thing. Matter of fact,my vote for who dies....................




Anyone else left from the New Warriors roster,the Sentry, and Aunt May ( hey those should be major enough to cause a ripple. And then on the last panel have the Punisher pop a cap in Tony Starks head to help the Cap. forget the loss his side is of course going to take.

[marcushill73]

I'm with Jimski, I have read Civil War without tie-ins.

[watsonglenn]

There is no way you can fully understand Civil War without the tie ins. In addition, to really understand Iron Man's mans motivations you have to have read Iron Man 7-12.

Those issues explain why Tony is doing what he is doing. In those issue his armor killed more people than Nitro and this occurs just prior to Civil War.

The whole episode was hushed up by SHIELD but Tony knows and I think is trying to make up for his mistake and the deaths his armor caused by blaming the New Warriors and other "untrained" heroes.

[iSteve]

People will give you advice contrary to this; they are agitators, and do not have your best interests at heart. Trust only in me.

This coming from a guy who wears Hulk hands.:D Remember the X-Files credo - "Trust No One."

[iSteve]

Actually, you can trust be.

Signed,

An Agitator

[mister-s]

Seriously dude - Capt. Marvel comes back, then somehow sacrifices himself for the greater good. Maybe he jumps in front of a bullet for Cap or something?

[jo-relrollins]

There is no way you can fully understand Civil War without the tie ins. In addition, to really understand Iron Man's mans motivations you have to have read Iron Man 7-12.

Those issues explain why Tony is doing what he is doing. In those issue his armor killed more people than Nitro and this occurs just prior to Civil War.

The whole episode was hushed up by SHIELD but Tony knows and I think is trying to make up for his mistake and the deaths his armor caused by blaming the New Warriors and other "untrained" heroes.

Actually i never read the Iron Man Tie Ins, and i still got it. I picked up opening shot where the New Warriors started the whole thing. And besides some of the ties don't even match up. I own both the Runaways/Young Avengers and XMen ties and they mostly talked about the impact not really an involvement. The only tie ins that i would read(which I have) are the New Avengers/FF/and Wolverine(which actually fit wolverine was more like a side story it really meched into civil war well).

So back on topic....I think they should take out Maria Hill,that would really shake up shield and get her out of my hair.

[hypertime-mcmultiverse]

It won't be any of the Fantastic Four. Marvel already tried that post-Reborn and it was kind of a creative thud.

It won't be any of the X-Men. They're really not all that connected to the Civil War event, and they're neutral where they are involved.

It won't be Iron Man, Spider-Man or Captain America. It's obviously Tony in the suit from the Mighty Avengers preview. Spider-Man has already been seen post-CW. Captain America has been solicited post-CW and he has a successful new solo series to maintain.

As for Spider-Man support characters, Peter doesn't seem nearly as distraught as we'd expect him to be if May or Mary Jane bit the big one. A post-CW separation I could understand, but revealing that one of them died and having his post-CW demeanor being what it is stretches credibility to its breaking point.

So, who could it be? My bets are on a Young Avenger or a small-time Avenger back-up character. Patriot would be an interesting symbolic death as a stand-in for Captain America. It would give shades of Bucky's 'death' and have an emotional impact on Cap and the pro-registration side. Stature is a long shot for the big death - they've already killed a giant with Black Goliath. Wiccan and Hulkling have way too much story potential left in their relationship, but Marvel might pull a Cassie/Connor kind of storyline from knocking one of them off. As for the back-up Avengers, there's just way too many choices of who to kill and none of them would be satisfactory.

Maybe they'll just bring Hawkeye back for a few panels and knock him off again.

There is no way you can fully understand Civil War without the tie ins.

I totally disagree. Most of the tie-ins were completely redundant, covering ground that the main series already stomped on. The main series covered all the major points. Tony's motivations were made explicitly clear. Cap's reluctance was made explicitly clear. SHIELD's manipulation of registered heroes was made explicitly clear.

The most successful tie-ins cleared up some of the more onerous mistakes of the main series. Reed Richard's batshit insane justifications were clarified/retconned. Spider-Man provided the real personal fall-out from the reveal. Stuff like Frontline and the solo series for Captain America and Iron Man were just so pointless. That scene where Iron Man just quotes literature for, like, 15 panels was absurd. I mean, the dividing line here isn't all that subtle, so having characters repeat the same justifications in the main series and again and again in the tie-ins just added nothing to the overall vibe or scope of the event.

Oh, and just to defuse the expected scent of fanboyism coming from some of my complaints (and my DC-ish name), I've been collecting Civil War and I really do love it. Millar is one of my favorite writers, McNiven's artwork has been worth the delays and this event has really made the MU feel like a cohesive universe again. It's just that I view Civil War and Infinite Crisis as flawed masterpieces. The scope of the former has felt too narrow to me, with lots of repetition and too little variety. However, the scope of the latter had just the opposite problem - it was too broad, with a ton of plot threads left untied and an unwieldy amount of content just crushing some of the more important themes of the main story.

[jadedhalo]

My guess is Jessica Jones.

[jo-relrollins]

hey i never thought about jessica jones thats a good guess. and cage is sort of badass in the new "new avengers".

[pv_2]

Well if we're to take the Fallen Son solicits at face value, the first issue deals with the stage of Denial, and it's the Wolverine issue - so then I would have to think it's someone Wolvie knows well to care enough to be in denial.

Yet as Hypertime's post very nicely details, seemingly everyone that would fit this criteria has been ruled out.

So who knows? But if they try to pass off a second-rater's death as significant, it'll be disappointing. Thankfully, only three more days 'til we find out. And this thing is finally over.

[fred]

Well if we're to take the Fallen Son solicits at face value, the first issue deals with the stage of Denial, and it's the Wolverine issue - so then I would have to think it's someone Wolvie knows well to care enough to be in denial.

Yet as Hypertime's post very nicely details, seemingly everyone that would fit this criteria has been ruled out.

So who knows? But if they try to pass off a second-rater's death as significant, it'll be disappointing. Thankfully, only three more days 'til we find out. And this thing is finally over.

it's been hinted at that the solicits may be fake or intentionally misleading

[iSteve]

I know I'm now in the distinct minority, but I still believe that Steve Rogers, aka Captain America, will be the one who dies in Civil War. Why? you ask.

1) Brubaker brought Bucky Barnes, aka Winter Soldier, back from the dead for a reason. Who better to be the new Captain America and continue the title comic?

2) If Civil War still has a chance to live up to its hype, then this death has to be a major death - that means only a first tier character will do.

3) The follow-up is named afterall Fallen SON - so chances are it has to be a guy. Besides, Steve Rogers could still die - BUT the hero, Captain America, will still live on!

4) Yeah, yeah, Quesada said Cap won't die, but who says this can't be a choice bit of disinformation.

[watsonglenn]

Tony's motivations were made explicitly clear.


No they were'nt. Tony motivation for going after unregistered untrained heroes who might be a danger to the public was made clear in one place and it was not even a Civil War tie in. See issues 7 through 12 of Iron Man. In those issue severel of his suits killed hundreds of people. He is embarrased and looking to fix a problem that he is the major cause of. He knows his own weaknesses and thinks other heroes have them too.

[watsonglenn]

I know I'm now in the distinct minority, but I still believe that Steve Rogers, aka Captain America, will be the one who dies in Civil War.

Ok come on. They are not going to kill Steve Rogers he is too commercial. I still think its Sentry.

[watsonglenn]

Actually i never read the Iron Man Tie Ins, and i still got it. I picked up opening shot where the New Warriors started the whole thing.

My belief is that this would have happened even without the New Warriors screw up. Iron Man's screw up in his own comic was much worse than the New Warriors screw up and he knows it. And he has a history of screwing up and getting people killed. This is not mentioned in Civil War and only hinted at in one tie in.

[paper]

I still think its Sentry.


This isn't Heaven...

[jo-relrollins]

My belief is that this would have happened even without the New Warriors screw up. Iron Man's screw up in his own comic was much worse than the New Warriors screw up and he knows it. And he has a history of screwing up and getting people killed. This is not mentioned in Civil War and only hinted at in one tie in.


I understand that, but i think the way they made the New Warriors thing happen on TV is why it came to this and the whole Cap being forced to either capture his friends or get locked up in the beginning was a deciding factor for him. But now having this look at it from ur view i think i might read those issues of Iron Man which says alot,since i'm not an Iron Man fan.

On another note,they said Captain America wouldn't die not Steve Rogers. Also in most interviews they have also said that not all the heroes will be inside their costumes. We could have a major role reversal.

[hypertime-mcmultiverse]

My guess is Jessica Jones.

I think that's unlikely given the new baby and the distance that Luke purposefully put between them and the conflict on the ground. Also, because she's a favorite of Bendis and he has quite a bit of editorial pull. Still, it'd be interesting to see Luke Cage's character from a widower/single-father angle.

No they were'nt. Tony motivation for going after unregistered untrained heroes who might be a danger to the public was made clear in one place and it was not even a Civil War tie in. See issues 7 through 12 of Iron Man.

I've read those issues (though I stopped collecting the series after the Extremis arc) and while they reinforce his reasons, I don't find that they're a source of any significant or new information or insight.

In those issue severel of his suits killed hundreds of people. He is embarrased and looking to fix a problem that he is the major cause of. He knows his own weaknesses and thinks other heroes have them too.

Indeed. And those same issues of responsibility and reaffirming the reliability and respect of the public in superheroes was made explicitly clear (to the point of overemphasis) in the main series. From the first hints of conflict in Illuminati to the most recent issue of Civil War, Tony's feelings on the registration act have been clear and bluntly stated. I didn't feel that the issues of his own series added nuance, but merely hammered an already clear point home.

In fairness, however, the idea of using Tony's oft-problematic suits as a source of guilt was inspired. It's not that I don't feel his reasoning was well-stated or developed well, it's just that I find the incessant reference and justification to be unnecessary filler. It'd be more satisfying to see an internal conflict that ranges beyond a fist-fight with Cap than an entire issue of Iron Man devoted to pro-registration sloganeering and justifications of a point we already know he's a true believer in.

Iron Man's screw up in his own comic was much worse than the New Warriors screw up and he knows it.

Ah, okay. I can see where you're coming from with the moral calculus angle. You're right, that hasn't been covered in the main series. And, really, it's an interesting note. Tony's wonky suits are such mainstays in the MU, Marvel dedicated a whole mini to it with Iron Man: Hypervelocity.

[watsonglenn]

I guess my main piont is that there are important justifications and sub plots outside Civil War proper that make the story richer and more understandable.

Iron Man is one

Seeing Aunt Mat and MJ in the crosshairs is another.

The whole Speedball Penance thing is a third.

[fred]

Preview of CW 7 at newsarama
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/07/preview/CW07Pre.html

[kwok_talk]

Preview of CW 7 at newsarama
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/07/preview/CW07Pre.html

Cloak on MGH?

[fred]

are MGH and Kick the same thing?

[k33k3r]

Thanks Fred and interesting.... What the duece is going on with Cloak....?

[kwok_talk]

are MGH and Kick the same thing?

Not for sure. I think it might be something like cocaine:crack is to mgh:kick.

I hope it’s not Cloak that dies. Not b/c I like him, but b/c that’d be a lame major character death.

[conorkilpatrick]

I've made this into the general Civl War thread. Since the finale is out tomorrow, we'll say that this thread will be SPOILERIFIC so read on at your own peril.

[pv_2]

Since the finale is out tomorrow, we'll say that this thread will be SPOILERIFIC so read on at your own peril.

Speaking of which, Augie has a review (http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=6) of CW#7 - no real detailed spoilers, but it does give a sense of how it plays out. Usually, I avoid anything with even a hint of spoil, but I found myself so damn eager to finally finish the series I went ahead anyway.

[jimski]

Not for sure. I think it might be something like cocaine:crack is to mgh:kick.

I was under the impression that Kick was a designer drug to enhance a mutant's powers, while MGH was a drug to briefly give humans mutants' powers. Whether they're actually the same... I guess Bendis and Morrison will have to wrestle for it.

[fred]

Marvel unclassifies post cw solicits
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102174

[conorkilpatrick]

Marvel unclassifies post cw solicits
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102174

Couldn't wait one more day, could you? :)

I'm going to have to impose a media blackout of my own forum...

[fred]

look who you're asking here

[pv_2]

I guess Bendis and Morrison will have to wrestle for it.

It wouldn't be fair - Morrison would just cast some magic spell (http://www.arthurmag.com/magpie/?p=1644) and twist Bendis all up like a pretzel.

[pv_2]

Marvel unclassifies post cw solicits
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102174

So. Tempted. To. Click. Link.

[iSteve]

So. Tempted. To. Click. Link.

Don't give in. Just 16 or so more hours. Hold on!

[fred]

click it

there's nothing crazy in there
there are some spoilers but it's not like books tomorrow will be ruined

[fred]

You definitely don't want to read the Captain America section of LITG
http://comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13

[k-dizzle]

You definitely don't want to read the Captain America section of LITG
http://comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13
yeah! ! ! ! !

[iSteve]

Eeeaaaayyyyhhhhh! My eyes! My eyes! I clicked through and looked!

[fred]

yeah! ! ! ! !

how unpatriotic of you

I just read the real spoilers, not that that wasn't real, for cw7 and I think there isn't going to be any movement. If you like it you'll like it. If you've hated it, this won't change that.

[darron]

So. Tempted. To. Click. Link.

It's funny, I opened the link in a new window.....thought about it for a sec, then closed the window. If I can't wait a single effing day to read CW spoilers, how am I ever gonna quit smoking? :rolleyes:

[fred]

the real spoilers for CW 7 are here

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102041

I AM THE DEVIL

[iSteve]

the real spoilers for CW 7 are here

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102041

I AM THE DEVIL

Yes, you are.

[fred]

click on my links from the hoary depths of hell

if they exist and are hoary

no not whorey. I beat you to it dizzle

[iSteve]

click on my links from the hoary depths of hell

if they exist and are hoary

no not whorey. I beat you to it dizzle

Fred's hoary, hellish links of temptation and damnation - whoops, the religion discussion is over at http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4163.

[k-dizzle]

click on my links from the hoary depths of hell

if they exist and are hoary

no not whorey. I beat you to it dizzle damn, dang, darn.

[kwok_talk]

so yeah, i caved in and read the spoilers. but im confused b/c did anyone die in that?

who's going to be the first to get comics tomorrow? I just want to know what happens.

[jadedhalo]

I'm boycotting this thread for the next 24 hours

[fred]

so yeah, i caved in and read the spoilers. but im confused b/c did anyone die in that?

who's going to be the first to get comics tomorrow? I just want to know what happens.

the spoilers were intentionally vague on detail but conveyed the thrust of the story. The poster says something to this effect on pae 2 I think of the comments.

[conorkilpatrick]

Well we've been promised a major death - that sounds morbid, doesn't it? - at the end of Civil War #7. Hell, there's a whole 5-issue mini already solicited to deal with the aftermath.

Question - have we been promised that? Where exactly? I'm trying to find the article and I can't. Someone point me to the light.

[fred]

Question - have we been promised that? Where exactly? I'm trying to find the article and I can't. Someone point me to the light.

I think that it comes out of the name of the Fallen Son mini. There are other ways that title could be interpreted though

[conorkilpatrick]

I think that it comes out of the name of the Fallen Son mini. There are other ways that title could be interpreted though

That's what I was starting to suspect. As I read this thread I thought, "I don't remember reading anywhere that someone is going to die..."

[fred]

in a loose sense of the word - someone dies

[conorkilpatrick]

So it's about 12:30pm on the East Coast and I know I'll be going to get my comics soon as I suspect other will, if they haven't already.

I assume there will be story-specific discussion soon, so if you haven't read the book don't read any further if you care about being spoiled.

[fred]

only 5 more hours until I get my books and this is my last day of work before the nycc. this is the longest day of my effin life or so it seems

[alexg]

So I just finished Civil War 7--it's over! The War is over! And now we can retur- oh, wait, in true marvel style Civil war has led to...MORE CROSSOVER EVENTS! More banners on covers-All Event, All the time. Eh.

[kwok_talk]

So I just finished Civil War 7--it's over! The War is over! And now we can retur- oh, wait, in true marvel style Civil war has led to...MORE CROSSOVER EVENTS! More banners on covers-All Event, All the time. Eh.

Can you post the highlights?

[fred]

I haven't read it but here's what I know:

SPOILERS




Clor dies
Taskmaster injuries Reed Richards and he and Sue get back together(Redd that is)
Cap surrenders after seeing how much damage they've done to NY and he's arrested
IM takes over SHIELD
42 is named after the 42nd item on Tony and Reed's to-do list
They're fighting in NY rather than 42 because Cloak teleported them there
Punisher takes cap's mask after he's arrested

[kwok_talk]

I haven't read it but here's what I know:

SPOILERS




Clor dies
Taskmaster injuries Reed Richards and he and Sue get back together(Redd that is)
Cap surrenders after seeing how much damage they've done to NY and he's arrested
IM takes over SHIELD
42 is named after the 42nd item on Tony and Reed's to-do list
They're fighting in NY rather than 42 because Cloak teleported them there
Punisher takes cap's mask after he's arrested

Nothing groundbreaking, but at least I have closure.

Who kills Clor? (Wasn't he supposed to show up in Black Panther?)
THe Punisher - Cap mask thing is interesting but I wonder what they'll do with it.

[fred]

the important thing is that this will take them to where they wanted to go

the story quality is arguable but I think the goal achievement isn't

[jimski]

What happens to Clor will, I think, be extremely cathartic for a lot of people.

I wish I would have posted my thoughts on "the big death" instead of just thinking them, so that I would have another chance to use my Colbert "I CALLED IT" banner.

I have read the book now, and my ambivalence is almost a physical thing. I am... satisfied? Relieved? I can't find the word. At the same time, the ending sets up a status quo for tons of stories that I'm not sure I want to read. And if the characters who pissed me off so much during the series don't pay for what they did somehow... hmmm.

[alexg]

Yeah, I feel as Jimski above. There is no closure because there isn't supposed to be, this is just supposed to roll on into the next series of "SHOCKING" events. I'm realizing that we'll never go back to just single story arcs in each title. They'll all constantly crossover and they'll continue to do stupid crap like in frontline. "the REAL reason for the civil war!". Annoying. Make Mine Ultimate Marvel, I don't think I'll have the patience for all this upcomming nonsense.

[jimski]

I'm realizing that we'll never go back to just single story arcs in each title. They'll all constantly crossover and they'll continue to do stupid crap like in frontline.

Oh God, I completely forgot about Frontline. That one, I'll pile on right along with everyone else.

Billy Joel, you understand.

[labor_days]

::POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING::



The end of Civil War was kinda bullshit, no? Civil War seemed to end too conveniently. Cap just gave up the fight and for what? All that build up and mind-numbing crossovers were for naught. Oh wait, The Initiative is coming out. Yay?

"When the world is allied against you and tells you to move. You have to be willing to say, 'No, you move.'."- was Cap just talking out of his ass in Amazing #537? I suspect Cap isn't really going to go quietly into the night, of course.

Not that I was ever sympathetic to Cap's arguments in the first place. Preserving civil liberties is one thing but when someone is literally a nuclear bomb, at least take down the guy's address.

(I still enjoyed reading Civil War though. Mostly.)

[alexg]

Yeah, I was enjoying Civil war too until this issue and I realized what it was setting us up for. Now I know Marvel is in business to sell books and that all business is ultimately about maximizing profits, etc. BUT, I find their methods for doing so, (constant crossovers), tiresome. I also don't believe that Civil was was "Late" at all. Looking at the way the "Initiative" is set to roll out, the schedule fits perfectly. I think the "Lateness" is marketing gimmick like so many of the other "mistakes" (The Return) marvel makes that they know will generate a lot of net chatter (irony of contributing to that net chatter myself acknowledged).

[alexg]

Apologies for double post but I've finally synthesized by feelings on Civil War. I feel like an idiot for caring about and following this story. This could have been done in 3 issues, or hell, ONE for that matter and we could have jumped ahead to "Initiative" since the "War" had no real purpose or outcome except that one B list hero died. Is that how comics are supposed to make me feel? LIke I'm a sucker for reading them every week?

[jimski]

I was reading the "Countdown" thread the other day, and someone said, "Marvel needs to get on this and put out a weekly book," and I thought, "Marvel has a weekly book; it just has six different titles."

That's pretty much what heavy continuity gets you, if you think about it. A book with one overarching storyline being experienced in various facets by different characters with different writers writing the various bits? 52, yes, but how different is that description, really, from the Civil War Experience?

[alexg]

Yep, ultimately the same. The only difference is that 52 comes in one package and is cheaper than having to buy those six different titles.

[labor_days]

I was reading the "Countdown" thread the other day, and someone said, "Marvel needs to get on this and put out a weekly book," and I thought, "Marvel has a weekly book; it just has six different titles."

That's pretty much what heavy continuity gets you, if you think about it. A book with one overarching storyline being experienced in various facets by different characters with different writers writing the various bits? 52, yes, but how different is that description, really, from the Civil War Experience?The irony is that 52 is kinda good. Even though I have no idea what is going on.

The majority of the Civil War crossover titles have been terrible. Not much perspective was gained from the monthly Wolverine, Spider-man, New Avengers, Moon Knight, Fantastic Four, Punisher War Journal, Iron Man, Ms. Marvel...what am I forgetting here? Hell, not even Captain America was very insightful. Thunderbolts maybe was interesting for two issues?

If anything the monthlies just confused the events in Civil War or rehashed events already covered. Thinking specially of Spider-man vs. Iron Man. Damn you for taking my money, Marvel.

[alexg]

The irony is that 52 is kinda good. Even though I have no idea what is going on.

The majority of the Civil War crossover titles have been terrible. Not much perspective was gained from the monthly Wolverine, Spider-man, New Avengers, Moon Knight, Fantastic Four, Punisher War Journal, Iron Man, Ms. Marvel...what am I forgetting here? Hell, not even Captain America was very insightful. Thunderbolts maybe was interesting for two issues?

If anything the monthlies just confused the events in Civil War or rehashed events already covered. Thinking specially of Spider-man vs. Iron Man. Damn you for taking my money, Marvel.

Totally, one of the more ridiculous examples of this is in Amazing SPider Man 538- "for the events they are watching on the screen see Civil War #7" should say "for this ridiculous collection of panels that do not compromise a story, please see every other marvel title, except the one you are currently reading of course"

[conorkilpatrick]

I also don't believe that Civil was was "Late" at all. Looking at the way the "Initiative" is set to roll out, the schedule fits perfectly. I think the "Lateness" is marketing gimmick like so many of the other "mistakes" (The Return) marvel makes that they know will generate a lot of net chatter (irony of contributing to that net chatter myself acknowledged).

I think you are reaching.

[rice-a-roni]

SPOILERS


















Well, I loooooooooooooooooooooved the end of Civil War. It makes perfect sense, and the payoff that was promised for pro-reg was there in full force. The New Yorkers pouncing on Cap was a complete surprise, and absolutely perfect. The war had become about emotional stake and honor for them rather than about principle. They destroyed a whole section of New York. Cap realizes this and surrenders, and just as Tony predicted in Casualites of War, everything ends at that moment. When they were closing things out and they mentioned the New Avengers, I actually felt a bit of anger at them for continuing to work against the government. It was like, what the heck? After all this shouldn't you want peace?

There were tons of other great moments too. Namor. The Thing. Clor getting absolutely owned by Hercules was awesome. I loved how Milar had the letter Reed wrote to Sue parallel issue 4. I think it's the best decision for them to give up heroing for a while to concentrate on their family. That's what needs to happen. And I think Tony cleaning up S.H.I.E.L.D. is a fantastic move.

I loved Civil #7. Hands down it deserves pick of the week.

[don-c-]

I just finished this and must say I'm pretty disappointed. It's not that the last issue was terribly done, it just felt a little rushed and uneventful. I think every great story should have some sort of twist near the climax that is like a lightbulb going off. That didn't happen. The climax, I suppose, was when Cap turned himself in. That's just boring.

There was a time early in the issue when I thought the SHIELD agents were planning to shut down all the portals to the negative zone and lock in all the heroes and villains. I thought, "wow, this is really genius. They've created a system where they know all/most of the heroes and villains would be in one place at one time in a different dimension. If you're trying to elminate the threat, this would be a perfect way to do it. Then Maria Hill would come out of the shadows, smiling, and say 'no more supers.'"

Instead, Namor appeared for one panel, Capt. Marvel appeared in the corner of one panel, everyone fought for about 2 minutes and all is good in the Marvel world. LAME!

After writing this, I change my mind. It was done terribly.

[alexg]

yeah, after all this time, it was gonna be hard for this thing to be truly satisfying, and let's face it, were any of the issues really all that "amazing". The whole series felt like a bullet points or talking points for the larger story. Whatever, it's over...the 'whole marvel universe changes now!" (zzzzz)

[mastap]

Actually i feel that this is the first issue that was mostly a real story and not talking points, I liked it, not as an event, or series but as a single issue
Also, i may just be blind, but who besides Clor died? I read the issue twice and didnt see any other deaths, again i may be blind though.

[conorkilpatrick]

Also, i may just be blind, but who besides Clor died? I read the issue twice and didnt see any other deaths, again i may be blind though.

No one else died.

[labor_days]

Least we not forget the tragic loss of the New Warriors and Goliath. Clor too.

[kwok_talk]

Least we not forget the tragic loss of the New Warriors and Goliath. Clor too.

And the bad guys that I’ve never heard of until Punisher shot them.

[cammyknoxville]

CGS easter eggs on pages 3 and 5!

And sure enough, those easter eggs were the only things I enjoyed in this final issue. It was such a let down in my opinion.

BUT WAIT MARVEL FANS! THE CROSS-OVERS DON'T STOP HERE! GIVE US MORE MONEY FOR THE UPCOMING CIVIL WAR: INITIATIVE TITLES!!!!*

*Editors note: these issues are delayed.


Now we wait for the weekly Marvel series to happen.

[watsonglenn]

According to my count Civil War 7 is the 97th comic in the entire Civil War crossover. There are still a few missing so the final number will be well over 100 comics.

Thats around $300 worth of comics.

[paulsharkey]

Ok, so it's time I had a ***** about Civil War 7.... well for a start it, oh to hell with it I loved the god damn thing. It was a realy good comic and the last two pages gave me an ending that I could understand and accept, but then I was always on Tony's side.

[pv_2]

Well we've been promised a major death - that sounds morbid, doesn't it? - at the end of Civil War #7. Hell, there's a whole 5-issue mini already solicited to deal with the aftermath.

Question - have we been promised that? Where exactly? I'm trying to find the article and I can't. Someone point me to the light.

Funny thing is even though I made that original post to start the thread, I had the same thought as I was reading it - that I made an incorrect leap based on that Fallen Son solicit. So if this were law they'd invoke that "fruit of the rotten tree" idea and the whole thread would be thrown out. I read in LITG that Cap #25 is what's supposed to set up Fallen Son. Blah blah blah at this point.

[six-gun]

I'm not one to get all fanboy. But jailing Cap! Oh my freaking gosh I'm pissed. I'm so freaking freaking pissed AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[pv_2]

I have to say Jimski summed it up pretty well, the ending sets up a status quo for tons of stories that I'm not sure I want to read. Despsite the fine iFanboy interview with Slott, I'm not really interested in this initiative idea.

The best thing I can say about CW#7 is that it was mostly very pretty to look at. Otherwise it served more to launch titles than resolve the story in a satisfying way. I know I shouldn't be surprised by this - I think I'm more disappointed in myself for actually believing this time it'd be different.

[pv_2]

I'm not one to get all fanboy. But jailing Cap! Oh my freaking gosh I'm pissed. I'm so freaking freaking pissed AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Right there with ya, Six Gun. No Cap issues for three months, and now he's in jail.

And now Brubaker has to write another of his characters of that predicament.

[k-dizzle]

I have always liked capbecause he is always doing the right thing but turning himself in is totally a pusssy move and I dont think he would do that even if new yark was leveled, as long as no civilans were hurt.

[paper]

Yuck. Just...

[conorkilpatrick]

I read in LITG that Cap #25 is what's supposed to set up Fallen Son. Blah blah blah at this point.

Did someone say Captain America #25?

http://www.ifanboy.com/images/Cap 25.jpg

Doesn't look like a beaten man to me.

[fred]

He Looks Like The Mother****in Punisher

[fred]

holy crap.

[pv_2]

Did someone say Captain America #25?

Doesn't look like a beaten man to me.

How awesome is that cover?!? Love McGuinness' style.

[pv_2]

He Looks Like The Mother****in Punisher

Punisher busts him outta the joint and dons the mask he picked up?

[horatio616]

I wish they would give us a break between mega-crossovers. I applaud them for trying something different, but I'm not really interested in the stories that this mini has set up.

As for Civil War itself, it just doesn't ring true with me. Cap goes through all that, then gives up because he all-of-a-sudden realizes that he's wrecking the city? Didn't work for me at all. The Punisher man-crush is creepy too. I half expected him to wring Cap's sweat out of the mask and into his mouth. There was just too much story for 7 issues, and I refuse to buy all of those tie-ins to get the whole story.

Meh.

[kwok_talk]

VERY INTERESTING!

(Punisher then kills Crossbones for copying his skull-face costume)

[six-gun]

Did someone say Captain America #25?

http://www.ifanboy.com/images/Cap 25.jpg

Doesn't look like a beaten man to me.

Look again.

[six-gun]

Okay, that was a bit harsh, but mandid Cap's surrender get me rilled up.

[watsonglenn]

I liked seeing Herc smash Clor.
I liked seeing Sue smash the Taskmaster.
I liked seeing Spider man kicking every one's face.
I liked seeing Cap take down Iron Man.
I liked seeing the Thing show up and be the only one there with any sense.

I do not like seeing Beta Ray Bill join Alpha Flight?????

[the-screw-on-aaron]

Well, what to say?…….

Today I went to my comic stores in Paris picked my favorite and got my books. Immediately afterwards I went to a park near Notre Dame, found the place with the best light and read civil war number seven.

I could talk about every single panel and every single person in this book. But nobody wants that particularly me :) I will touch upon a few certain things that I thought were interesting.

It amazed me and depressed me, it made me laugh it made me cry, it made me want to live it made me want to die (well that's a bit extreme but true in a sense).

Thought 1 positive point:

Things happened in this book that I have always imagined in a way that I never thought would happen. Things like Captain America kicking in the crap out of Bishop while talking useless banter, I mean how many times have there been where they're fighting in one pose for three panels saying the same dialog in a long monologue? And you just wonder why the hell they don't kick them in the face in mid-speech? Also things like Spiderman beating the crap out of Reed Richards, who ever thought that would happen, and honestly how long has it been since Hercules had a great full-page moment, awesome!

Thought 2 negative point:

Ok, after several issues in all kinds of different comics saying exactly why Captain America is against this war and how he'll never backed down and he refuses to see the light, only in the end does he see the error of his ways. Come on! I really can't believe after that amazing speech in Spiderman that he would just turn around and say “they're right.” It seriously doesn't fit in my mind it feels that if it should have been done a should have been done a long time ago and has been drawn out now purely for plot. It does make a very compelling ending and in the panel before the people grab him (which was awesome! And really shocked me) the way he's looking down on Ironman with his shield about the strike him was drawn beautifully, it might be my favorite panel in the whole series Mcniven really did it excellently. He really got a sense that he could go either way, he could strike Tony and end it all but at the same time you can see him slightly hesitating at the thought of killing one of his best friends.

Well that turned out to be more of a positive comment then a negative one in the end but hey much like this event there is two signs to everything.

Thought 3 positive point:

I love the idea of the registration act!
it's going to bring such good conflicts and stories that it is almost worth the pains waiting for this book to come out gave me.

Thought 4 negative point:

I hate the idea of the registration act! :)

The Marvel U if you count Annihilation and Civil War together has quite drastically in many respects changed everything. This for me in a way is very exciting but at the same time I feel like it's the end of an era, and we are really heading into the modern age and saying goodbye to the bronze age. Which I am all for but at the same time am still sad to say goodbye to my comfortable little era, I'll miss you.

Well I hope that wasn't too long, I just had to share those thoughts with people and discuss them :D .

A few little things too, I noticed that if you line up all the Civil War issues one after another you will see that every other issue has the Civil War letters on the front ether in blue representing anti- registration and Captain America, while the red letters represented Ironman and Pro registration. So if I had noticed this before I might've guessed that the last issue would be red letters from the pattern and would've guessed maybe the Pro registration would win.

Also as I was reading the cup of Joe at the end of the book I noticed that he said and what is punisher going to do with caps mask? And it hit me! And this is very much a theory, maybe the punisher as they pointed out earlier in issues five and six that the punisher is the modern Captain America in a way that it got me thinking maybe he's going to try to be Captain America for a while! Just like in Daredevil in a way.

Well my opinion splits down the middle just like this series and that's what I think makes it very unique and in that sense excellent.

[k-dizzle]

I liked seeing Herc smash Clor.
I liked seeing Sue smash the Taskmaster.
I liked seeing Spider man kicking every one's face.
I liked seeing Cap take down Iron Man.
I liked seeing the Thing show up and be the only one there with any sense.

I do not like seeing Beta Ray Bill join Alpha Flight?????

Dude ......Cap was ONE SWING away from ending Iron Man for ever. I knew hes wasent gonna do it, but damn it would have been sweet to turn the page and see cap throw everyone off of him ,bring down the shield and slice tonys fukkin head off......Omega flight wont last .

[jadedhalo]

I'm surprised no one had mentioned Amazing Spider-Man #538 yet.

Then again, who didn't see that coming.

[watsonglenn]

Today I went to my comic stores in Paris picked my favorite and got my books. Immediately afterwards I went to a park near Notre Dame, found the place with the best light and read Civil War number seven.

Ok this is hands down the best opening statement I have ever seen in a post anywhere.

I read #7 in my room eating a peanut butter sandwich so of course I hate you now.

[watsonglenn]

I'm surprised no one had mentioned Amazing Spider-Man #538 yet.

Then again, who didn't see that coming.

I have not read it yet so I have to say I have no idea what is going to happen. I do think it should have come out last week instead of this week.

This was of course the main problem with Civil War, the timing of the issues.

Why was it so hard for Marvel to put them out in the correct order.

[jadedhalo]

I have not read it yet so I have to say I have no idea what is going to happen. I do think it should have come out last week instead of this week.

This was of course the main problem with Civil War, the timing of the issues.

Why was it so hard for Marvel to put them out in the correct order.

Actually ASM happens at the same time Civil War #7 is going on.

[jimski]

Actually ASM happens at the same time Civil War #7 is going on.

Okay, that is one element of Civil War I will not miss: JMS rewriting each issue in his books. Listen to Ed Brubaker talk about writing Cap during Civil War in this week's iFanboy video, and wish he had said it to JMS six months ago.

[iSteve]

I've finished both CW #7 and ASM #538 and all I can say is that I'm glad CW is over. Nothing good to say about either. Let's move on.

[six-gun]

Does the new Marvel U remind anyone of the Wildstorm Coup de ta event?

[big-doze]

Ok, after several issues in all kinds of different comics saying exactly why Captain America is against this war and how he'll never backed down and he refuses to see the light, only in the end does he see the error of his ways. Come on! I really can't believe after that amazing speech in Spiderman that he would just turn around and say “they're right.”

I havn't read the issue yet (hard to get in Japan, and my controversial downloading system is on the fritz), but it doesn't seem out of character for Cap to give himself up.

All this time Cap's been going on and on about how he knows he's right and he's willing to do anything to stop these people who are trampling their rights. He believes in his cause with everything he has, but it's still only his second priority. His first priority, as has ever been his first priority, is to help people. To defend those who cannot defend themselves. And when he realizes that he himself has become a danger to the people he's fighting for, he makes the heroic sacrifice that only Cap could make. He gives up what he treasures most to save lives.

Sounds like a character defining moment to me, and I can't see the character doing anything else. Brilliant, in my opinion.

Of course, we'll see once I read it...

[davegraham]

I thought it was a decent ending for how the series ended up unfolding. I don't really have anything else to say than that. So who was the big death? Clor? Hmmm, lame. Are we supposed to believe the Punisher is going to take over for Cap? That might be fun for an arc. Bring on the New New Avengers and the Mighty Avengers. Did I see a New New Warriors book being solicited for June? Sweet! Civil War was an interesting premise. Nicely drawn. There were some fun cliffhangers. Too bad we didn't get a lot character development or plot development. I usually like those parts of a story the most. It's over. I am not going to dwell on CW any more.

On Amazing Spider-man... this was the first time I felt the need to drop it from my pull list, but I hear JMS is leaving it before the end of the year. I'll stick around and see who takes over. Leaving at this point would be like trying to escape the sinking of the Titanic after I already drowned.

[watsonglenn]

Its not out of character for Cap to surrender in order to save lives and property in New York what is out of character is him letting this fight spill out into New York in the first place.

He clearly knew the fight was going to be in NY since he had Namor showing up to in the nick of time to help him.

How could he not know such a fight would cause damage. Why didnt he stay and fight in the Negative Zone? He had freed the prisoners he meant to free and if he could not win in the Negative Zone even with their help why did he plan to fight there in the first place?

In any case the Avengers have been involved in fights that created more damage. No civilians were getting killed that I could see.

To my mind after 97 issues there should be some sort of resolution.

The first Kree Skrull war lasted less than twenty issues and it had a resolution that was not anti-climactic and Marvel continued to sell comcis afterwards.

This was poorly finished IMO.

[k-dizzle]

Yeah Civil war is over. Now everyone can donate the cost of an issue (2.99) to ifanboy.

[jimski]

I look forward to reading Civil War again as a unit now that it's all out, to see how it reads without interruption.

I thought it rang true, and there were a few really nice moments in the last chapter, in particular the Playing of the New York Fire Fighter Card.

I do wonder: I've been hearing for months that "we were trying to come up with the ending, and Joss came in with the perfect genius magnificent end moment." What, I wonder, was that moment?

I dropped FF because of JMS; will I drop Amazing Spider-Man because of him? Again? I really like the first few chapters of "The War at Home," but today's issue reminded me... well, it reminded me of the FF issue that made me drop the book.

[pv_2]

I do wonder: I've been hearing for months that "we were trying to come up with the ending, and Joss came in with the perfect genius magnificent end moment." What, I wonder, was that moment?

I take the moment to be when Cap realizes they're not fighting for the right reason and tells his side to stand down, thus ending the war.

[pv_2]

And ASM was almost as bad as the last Frontline, 21 pages of obvious filler before the Big Moment on the last page. The book could have been one page.

[watsonglenn]

today's issue reminded me... well, it reminded me of the FF issue that made me drop the book.

FF got bad when Johnny Storm became an accountant.

It actually got better during Civil War.

[jimski]

FF got bad when Johnny Storm became an accountant.

It actually got better during Civil War.

Egad, the Waid run? Sacrilege! I would bite Johnny's flaming ear off to get Waid and Wieringo back on that book, and spit it at the Thing.

[unnamedfrenchguy]

I've almost quit the 616 universe but I took a couple minutes to read Civial War #7. I have a quick question: Where are the mutants? I know that the X-Men are off in space but the X-Men aren't the only mutants... What's X-Factor doing for example?

[big-doze]

Egad, the Waid run? Sacrilege! I would bite Johnny's flaming ear off to get Waid and Wieringo back on that book, and spit it at the Thing.

AMEN! Preach on, preach on!

[horatio616]

So basically the whole point of Civil War is that the Punisher is going to let the world know that he's fallen truly, madly, deeply in love with Captain America.

It's kinda got that Travolta/Newton-John thing going for it, except it's like Travolta showing up in a varsity sweater at the end.

[rice-a-roni]

I'm willing to bet the New Yorkers jumping Cap was Whedon's idea.

[jurassicalien]

Yeah, a character "Seeing the light" feels like a Whedon thing.

I did enjoy the issue, but it did lack a "Final" feeling to it. But if it's going into "The Initiative".

I have to think that if the point of the book was to change the status of the universe, then it did its job, and left us with tings to read later on.

As for the Punisher being cap...that could be interesting, with Bru on Cap still I trust it'll be good. So Civil War is having me see want to know where Marvel is going to go from here, so for that, I suppose it served its purpose.

[fred]

I've almost quit the 616 universe but I took a couple minutes to read Civial War #7. I have a quick question: Where are the mutants? I know that the X-Men are off in space but the X-Men aren't the only mutants... What's X-Factor doing for example?

That was Bishop under Cap's boot. Other than that they've largely remained neutral(storm excluded of course)

[fred]

And ASM was almost as bad as the last Frontline, 21 pages of obvious filler before the Big Moment on the last page. The book could have been one page.

537 was the same way. I actually came up with a good analogy for ASM in the Fred's This Week In Comics (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?p=66081) thread

[iSteve]

Is it just me or did anyone else notice that when Hercules killed Clor, he looked more like a Thor-bot rather than a clone? I mean where was the abundance of brain matter?

[k33k3r]

I wondered that as well.

Did we know he was a robot?

[billy-parker]

Conservatives believe war and fighting solve problems, like the anti-regs.

Liberals think war does not solve problems and that fighting should be stopped, like the pro-regs.

In the end of Civil War #7 *spoiler* Captain America sees the war is hurting people, and gives in. Fighting/war is not the answer.

Does this mean that Civil War has a liberal slant to it? Because war is definitely seen as bad in this story. What do you think?

[jerome]

Conservatives believe war and fighting solve problems, like the anti-regs.

Liberals think war does not solve problems and that fighting should be stopped, like the pro-regs.

??????????

[conorkilpatrick]

Conservatives believe war and fighting solve problems, like the anti-regs.

Liberals think war does not solve problems and that fighting should be stopped, like the pro-regs.

In the end of Civil War #7 *spoiler* Captain America sees the war is hurting people, and gives in. Fighting/war is not the answer.

Does this mean that Civil War has a liberal slant to it? Because war is definitely seen as bad in this story. What do you think?

I think we're all mature and smart enough to discuss this like adults, should we chose to. But I'll be monitoring closely and I'll shut it down if it gets out of hand...

[k33k3r]

This requires too much thought for tonight. I'll get back to that one tomorrow once I get my thoughts straight for it.

[darron]

I wondered that as well.

Did we know he was a robot?

Did we know he was a clone?

I don't think it was ever really stated. I always assumed it was a "cyborg" after CW issue 4, when Reed drilled into the suckers head.

[conorkilpatrick]

??????????

Yeah... I know. I don't know what to make of that either.

[k33k3r]

Well we knew it wasn't Thor. I figured it was a clone but now that you mention the drilling yeah that makes a good point about him being a cyborg

[fred]

Yeah... I know. I don't know what to make of that either.

I've written half a response twice. The third will hopefully be a charm

[paper]

Don't they talk about Reed saving a strand of Thor's hair? That means it has to be partly biological. And there's definitely some nuts in bolts in there.

Cyborg.

Or...Cybjorg?

[fred]

Don't they talk about Reed saving a strand of Thor's hair? That means it has to be partly biological. And there's definitely some nuts in bolts in there.

Cyborg.

Or...Cybjorg?

that's why I was confused

[iSteve]

that's why I was confused

It's a Thor-borg!

[fred]

It's a Thor-borg!

didn't he play tennis?

[iSteve]

didn't he play tennis?

No, guest star in Star Trek: NG.

[billy-parker]

What I'm saying is I think Civil War has a liberal slant as seen by it's ending. Anyone else see that?

When Captain America loses, I feel like it's saying "Conservatives lose."

Because the whole book reminds me of pro war and anti war arguments. Like "Should we fight in Iraq? Yes or no?" Soldiers are the heroes, referred to as "baby killers" in the book, like soldiers in real life were referred to as "baby killers" in Vietnam. So telling heroes they can't fight reminds me of liberal minded looking down on conservatives for being pro war. You know, because conservatives believe war will solve our problems while liberals believe the opposite, opposing different wars throughout our nations history.

So when Captain sees that war is not the answer, and gives in, it makes me feel that Civil War has a liberal message.

Yes a liberal message that says "War is not the answer to our futures problems."

And I will say that I personally, am a conservative, and do belive that war is the answer to some conflicts. Call me crazy, but I believe we have a moral responsibility to put a stop to certain horrible evils in this world when we have the ability and oppurtunity.

But Civil War with it's ending made me feel like it was anti-war/liberal. You know, I wanted Cap to win. Or at least not give in, but go down fighting or just get captured and go to jail, but not give in.

And with Marvel making him give in, I felt they took a political stance with this book.

What do you think?

[jerome]

I'm not sure I agree with a lot of the assumptions you're making about the two vantage points. Conservatives believe war will solve all our problems and liberals believe the exact opposite? That's a very broad statement that I don't know what to make of. Also, if Civil War is indeed making a significant political statement, and i don't necessarily agree with that either, It's not so much war/antiwar, but really the importance of one's civil liberties vs. the public safety. Its not as if one side was against the war while the other was pro; both the anti-regs and pro-regs were ambivalent towards the idea, only to eventually succumb when supposedly no other options were left.

But really, if you're looking for any real strong political ties to the the real world, you shouldn't: any political arguments Civil War makes are extremely superficial in nature. Mark Millar (or Marvel?) had in mind first and foremost the intention to shock and entertain, and any real world applications came second if they could fit it in with whatever twist they thought up. Captain America didn't lose because Marvel was trying to make a liberal argument, he lost because Marvel thinks more interesting stories will come out of it. and thats how it should be. But what started out as a possible thoughtful allegory to our post 9/11 world changed into a big popcorn action movie by the end of the seven issues. There's nothing wrong with that, but thats what Civil War is.

[mikegraham6]

its funny, i always thought that cap's side was more liberal, just due to the fact that the reg side seemed like an allegory for the patriot act, something liberals opposed.
but i agree with jerome. civil was just a popcorn action book. it seemed in the beginning that they were trying to stir up some political feelings with the readers (Quesada on the colbert report) and draw on these comparisons to the errosions of civil liberties but it seemed to me that it was kinda dropped early on to avoid alienating anyone.

All in all, i really enjoyed Civil war, even though it turned out to be something completly different from what i expected. After reading the 1st issue i was prepared to give this to friends and family as something new and different. but in the end it was a run of the mill, above average action story that i will probably keep to myself.
I was satisfied with the ending as well. i think caps actions made sense with the story and the character. i read all the issues before reading 7 and you could see cap losing sight of the true goal of any hero, helping the innocent. we all rooted for cap even though we knew that reg side was right (i dont want untrained superheroes fighting in my city either!) and the regular citizens in the marvel u supported registration. cap WAS the bad guy, the only people he was defending were other heroes, not regular people. he made good points (not becoming a government lackey ect..) but in the end the people supported iron man and he forgot that, thats why the ending made sense and im glad they tied it together with a proper ending (not some supervillain controlling things from behind the scenes).

my major complaint is that some of the lengths tony went to were a little extreme and it seems that they got a bit sugercoated and forgotten near the end.

[billy-parker]

Conservatives believe war will solve all our problems and liberals believe the exact opposite? That's a very broad statement

Bush vs. Kerry 2004 presidential election. The "hot button issue" was the Iraq war, and we all know where the politcal parties fell on that issue. Liberals decidedly against it, conservatives in support. We're talking broadly indeed. We're not here to talk about the exceptions to the rule as in "Well I'm a liberal, but I don't believe what other liberals believe on this issue..." Enough of that exception talk.

But really, if you're looking for any real strong political ties to the the real world, you shouldn't

Come on. There are similarities a plenty! For example:

Hundreds of kids dead in Civil War #1 used to move the US people politically = Thousands of New Yorkers dead in 9/11 used to move the US people politically.

This is one similarity that I find particularly interesting.

When the New Warriors fought Nitro, they were doing their job and protecting the people of the US. What happened was Nitro blew himself up, knowing that people could possibly die from what he did. The consequences were terrible, matching an act of US terrorism.

Now people blamed the heroes and New Warriors, but they were still doing the right thing. It reminds me of the crap our soldiers put up with when they fight for our country, yet extreme peace-nics can still bad mouth them like with the label "baby killers." My friend's dad who served in Vietnam was called a "baby killer" during the time of Vietnam and some woman spit on his shoe while he was in uniform arriving home. Yet these are the people that our soldiers, or in this case heroes, protect.

Now despite these hundreds of people dying, Captain America fought for what he believed in. And the truth is, in war, lots of people die. It's going to happen. But that's the price we pay in fighting for a free country and what we know is morally right.

So I see Cap as fighting for our freedom as a country to fight for what's right. And when he gave in at the end, seeing how war is "bad," I feel the spin leans to the liberal side. In that war is not the answer.

i always thought that cap's side was more liberal, just due to the fact that the reg side seemed like an allegory for the patriot act, something liberals opposed.


This is one issue that I am surprised that people don't analyze further.

The "Patriot Act" is meant to monitor terrorist.

The "Superhuman Registration Act" is meant to monitor heroes.

There is a huge difference at the core of these acts. That's why the Patriot Act just does not make sense here.

Monitoring heroes is closer to demoralizng US soldiers. It's taking away their right to fight for our country.


Moreover,

We all know that Mark Millar is a proud liberal, and in this epic story, he ended with the message that "War is not the answer." Cap gives in when he sees the war's destruction and hurt.

What I'm getting at here, is that Iron Man's side is the liberal side, and the liberal side won.

Please people, tell me you see the liberal slant here when the pro regs won.

[mikegraham6]

Now people blamed the heroes and New Warriors, but they were still doing the right thing. It reminds me of the crap our soldiers put up with when they fight for our country, yet extreme peace-nics can still bad mouth them like with the label "baby killers." My friend's dad who served in Vietnam was called a "baby killer" during the time of Vietnam and some woman spit on his shoe while he was in uniform arriving home. Yet these are the people that our soldiers, or in this case heroes, protect.

i think your just trying to turn this into a conservative vs liberal debate.
honestly i can see how some parallels can be drawn with some stuff that was presented in the 1st issue, but like i said in my previous post, most of the political parallels seemed to be dropped in favour of an action packed superhero vs superhero story. had the political threads your mentioning been drawn out further than i think you'd have a stronger arguement but in all honesty i think by the end of this series, all comparisons between a liberal side and conservative side became moot. that last issue lacked the kinda of depth that would back up the point your making (ie liberal "peaceniks" won out over "war mongering" conservatives)

[k33k3r]

And now everyones afraid to touch this thread...

[fred]

You might be right
I've been suspiciously quiet in this one

[iSteve]

New direction for discussion - does it make sense to you (story-wise) that Cap gave up the way that he did in #7? Did it invalidate his position regarding registration, and thus Civil War itself?

[paper]

I agree with the sentiment of his decision, but I don't think it was executed well. I feel like the civillian attack would cause him to exit the battle, not retreat exactly, but move to the sidelines, to observe. That way he could have had more of a chance to think about what he was going to do. There needed to be more of an internal conflict. Maybe a few wordless panels with Cap looking at all the destruction, a good point for the comic to show how terrible this is instead of how cool it looks.

[iSteve]

I agree with the sentiment of his decision, but I don't think it was executed well. I feel like the civillian attack would cause him to exit the battle, not retreat exactly, but move to the sidelines, to observe. That way he could have had more of a chance to think about what he was going to do. There needed to be more of an internal conflict. Maybe a few wordless panels with Cap looking at all the destruction, a good point for the comic to show how terrible this is instead of how cool it looks.

I guess I still don't buy it. It seems that Cap gave up too easily. If he really believed that registration was truly wrong, I think he would have found a way to continue his protest. I feel that Marvel just needed to wrap the story up in #7 and Cap's capitulation was a means to do that. But they didn't explore why he changed his mind. That brings up another issue - did Cap actually change his mind regarding registration - or did he give in just to stop the violence? Why were he and the New Avengers not given amnesty?

[labor_days]

Iron Man & Reed Richards were the liberals? Huh, I thought detaining people without trail, monitoring American citizens, special interest backing, patriot jingoism and good old fashioned pandering to American's sense of fear; were the domain of the political right. What was #43 on the list, "Invade Iran"?

Come now, Billy Parker. Don't you think you are reaching just a bit with some of these assumptions? CW drew some allegories to real world events but they were hardly explored with any depth. And your reductive arguments don't even match up with the events in CW. Are we forgetting Reed's speech to Peter Parker re: Reed's uncle? Reed would have had his uncle proclaim; "Yes, I am a communist. And these friends of mine are also communist!". Anti-regs say, "To hell with that.".

It sounds like you want to draw an parallel between the current sentiments of the (unjust) "war" in Iraq and Civil War. Marvel called it Civil War but it's not really about war, per se -we all understand this, yes? Cap was fighting to protect Civil Liberties. Y'know because not everyone thinks the "Patriot Act" overrides the Constitution. Illusion of security and all that.

I'm not saying you are wrong or attacking your political views, Billy. But that's an awful lot to put on the shoulders of a comic book series that was essentially about costumed people punching each other in the face.

New direction for discussion - does it make sense to you (story-wise) that Cap gave up the way that he did in #7? Did it invalidate his position regarding registration, and thus Civil War itself? Yes and no. It is completey in character for Cap to realize the larger point of the Anti-Reg movement was being eroded by wanton destruction. It wasn't simply a matter of danger either. The people were going to have to pick up the tab for that destruction as well. It's no wonder popular opinion was against the heroes. Presumably one of the "geniuses" on the Anti-reg side would have figured this out before Clor started murdering people.

I just wish Cap would have stuck to his guns a bit more. One could argue Tony and the Pro-Regs left Cap no choice but to fight. Non-violent protest would not have made for a very exciting action comic. "THOU ART NOT THOR!!", and all.

[k33k3r]

No it doesn't make that much sense to me. But I was on the anti side from the get go. I just don't liek Stark.

The other thing I coudln't get was I don't care who you are and what is going on I don't see how civilians are just going to run in an try and tackle Cap...

[iSteve]

No it doesn't make that much sense to me. But I was on the anti side from the get go. I just don't liek Stark.

The other thing I coudln't get was I don't care who you are and what is going on I don't see how civilians are just going to run in an try and tackle Cap...

From a story point of view, I still don't think that the public would have seen Captain America - of all people - as one of the bad guys who needs to be imprisoned. Talk about a stretch.

[k33k3r]

It's Captain American I mean come on... I would fear for my life if I went towards him in an aggressive manner.

[xyzzy]

I guess I still don't buy it. It seems that Cap gave up too easily. If he really believed that registration was truly wrong, I think he would have found a way to continue his protest. I feel that Marvel just needed to wrap the story up in #7 and Cap's capitulation was a means to do that. But they didn't explore why he changed his mind. That brings up another issue - did Cap actually change his mind regarding registration - or did he give in just to stop the violence? Why were he and the New Avengers not given amnesty?

I don't think Cap thought he was wrong. He simply realized that fighting wasn't going to change anything. Punching Iron Man in the face wasn't going to undo the Registration Act.

There are two ways to fight a bad law. One is in the courts, which is what's going to happen when he's tried. The second is with public opinion, which Cap realized he was losing by continuing this fight in the streets. Really, surrendering was a good move on both of those fronts.

Frankly, he should have realized this earlier, but you can forgive him for getting caught up in the fight, considering that it all started when a bunch of Shield agents drew weapons on him for no reason.

[labor_days]

Nite Owl: "Who are we protecting them from?"
The Comedian: "From themselves."
--The Watchmen

Alan Moore knows the score.

[iSteve]

I don't think Cap thought he was wrong. He simply realized that fighting wasn't going to change anything. Punching Iron Man in the face wasn't going to undo the Registration Act.

There are two ways to fight a bad law. One is in the courts, which is what's going to happen when he's tried. The second is with public opinion, which Cap realized he was losing by continuing this fight in the streets. Really, surrendering was a good move on both of those fronts.

Frankly, he should have realized this earlier, but you can forgive him for getting caught up in the fight, considering that it all started when a bunch of Shield agents drew weapons on him for no reason.

You laid out the case in far better way than Marvel did! I'd love to see Cap take it to the courts. Who would defend him? Matt Murdock? Gotta be.

[k33k3r]

Well i doubt it would be She-Hulk...

[iSteve]

Well i doubt it would be She-Hulk...

I wonder if this was why Daredevil wasn't made a member of the New Avengers, so he could represent them as clients.

[xyzzy]

I thought Matt Murdock was in jail?

I have to say that lawyers in the Marvel U (and DC) really seem to be jacks of all trades. One day they'll be practicing criminal law, then the next, they'll be doing civil litigation and the day after that, drawing up contracts. They're super-lawyers! So it wouldn't surpirse me to see Matt Murdock or Jennifer Walter/She-Hulk taking up constitutional law real soon now.

[iSteve]

I thought Matt Murdock was in jail?

I have to say that lawyers in the Marvel U (and DC) really seem to be jacks of all trades. One day they'll be practicing criminal law, then the next, they'll be doing civil litigation and the day after that, drawing up contracts. They're super-lawyers! So it wouldn't surpirse me to see Matt Murdock or Jennifer Walter/She-Hulk taking up constitutional law real soon now.

Matt's out of jail and it's all good. I don't think She-Hulk will be helping much. She's pro-reg.

[xyzzy]

Matt's out of jail and it's all good. I don't think She-Hulk will be helping much. She's pro-reg.

A good lawyer doesn't let their personal feelings about a subject get in the way of representing their client.

[iSteve]

A good lawyer doesn't let their personal feelings about a subject get in the way of representing their client.

True. Or should be.

[xyzzy]

True. Or should be.

I think that it's generally true. My experience is that most attorneys care more about making a good argument and winning than anything. Which isn't to say that they're unethical, but just that attorneys like to argue. And they're more than capable of arguing something on the merits, whether or not they personally agree. It's just how you're trained to think.

[iSteve]

I think that it's generally true. My experience is that most attorneys care more about making a good argument and winning than anything. Which isn't to say that they're unethical, but just that attorneys like to argue. And they're more than capable of arguing something on the merits, whether or not they personally agree. It's just how you're trained to think.

An unbiased attorney is essential to the right of a fair trial.

[xyzzy]

An unbiased attorney is essential to the right of a fair trial.

Actually, I'd say that the attorneys should be strongly biased in favor of their clients. The one who should be unbiased is the judge. And jury.

[iSteve]

Actually, I'd say that the attorneys should be strongly biased in favor of their clients. The one who should be unbiased is the judge. And jury.

Completely agree. I should have said that lawyer shouldn't be biased against the client/defendant because of his/her position/crime. So in the Marvel U, theoretically She-Hulk ought to be able to defend Cap, not letting her own opinions about registration get in the way. That said, Daredevil's still the logical choice for attorney.

[xyzzy]

Completely agree. I should have said that lawyer shouldn't be biased against the client/defendant because of his/her position/crime. So in the Marvel U, theoretically She-Hulk ought to be able to defend Cap, not letting her own opinions about registration get in the way. That said, Daredevil's still the logical choice for attorney.

Historically, what kind of law has Daredevil praciced?

For She-Hulk, I've only read Slott's stuff. Prior to his run, it seems like she was a DA and how has done a smattering of criminal defense and civil stuff at her new firm.

Really, what would be fun would be to see She-Hulk and Daredevil face off in the courtroom. It would be even more fun if they had to take sides that they didn't agree with, ideologically. You're right that it would make more sense for Daredevil to be on defense and She-Hulk to be on prosecution (since she works for Shield/the Gov't anyway), I just think it would make a great story.

[iSteve]

Historically, what kind of law has Daredevil praciced?

For She-Hulk, I've only read Slott's stuff. Prior to his run, it seems like she was a DA and how has done a smattering of criminal defense and civil stuff at her new firm.

Really, what would be fun would be to see She-Hulk and Daredevil face off in the courtroom. It would be even more fun if they had to take sides that they didn't agree with, ideologically. You're right that it would make more sense for Daredevil to be on defense and She-Hulk to be on prosecution (since she works for Shield/the Gov't anyway), I just think it would make a great story.

Other than these two, are there any more lawyers in the Marvel U?

[xyzzy]

Other than these two, are there any more lawyers in the Marvel U?


Tons, presumably. Superpowered ones? Can't think of many. Two-Gun Kid, but he had some probabems with the Bar, as I recall.

[iSteve]

Tons, presumably. Superpowered ones? Can't think of many. Two-Gun Kid, but he had some probabems with the Bar, as I recall.

The only one who comes to mind is Foggy Nelson. I'm sure there are others.

As for Matt's practice, I think it could only be described as general practice - mostly criminal (from the various storylines), but also some civil.

[xyzzy]

The only one who comes to mind is Foggy Nelson. I'm sure there are others.

Ah, if you're just looking for established charaters, there are all of the attorneys at Goodman, Lieber, Kurtzberg & Holliway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodman%2C_Lieber%2C_Kurtzberg_%26_Holliway). Most prominent of which would be Mallory Book, Pug and Holden Holliway.

Thinking about it, this would be exactly how She-Hulk gets in on the defense side. If her firm is the pre-eminent superhero law firm, they would absolutely want in on this. Once they sign on, she would have little choice to but to commit her full efforts in defense.

[iSteve]

Ah, if you're just looking for established charaters, there are all of the attorneys at Goodman, Lieber, Kurtzberg & Holliway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodman%2C_Lieber%2C_Kurtzberg_%26_Holliway). Most prominent of which would be Mallory Book, Pug and Holden Holliway.

Thinking about it, this would be exactly how She-Hulk gets in on the defense side. If her firm is the pre-eminent superhero law firm, they would absolutely want in on this. Once they sign on, she would have little choice to but to commit her full efforts in defense.

You could be right. Murdock might choose to lay low for a while given his recent outing as the Daredevil. With the question of "is he or isn't he" lingering in the public mind, he might recommend an attorney/firm with less personal baggage.

[humphrey-lee]

Did anyone say "God it sucked" yet? Because that'll be my contribution... :cool:

[iSteve]

Did anyone say "God it sucked" yet? Because that'll be my contribution... :cool:

Not in so many words, but the sentiment has been expressed. I would just call CW #7 a hugh disappointment.

[k33k3r]

We'll add that to the collective "ARGH!!!!"

[mikegraham6]

Historically, what kind of law has Daredevil praciced?

For She-Hulk, I've only read Slott's stuff. Prior to his run, it seems like she was a DA and how has done a smattering of criminal defense and civil stuff at her new firm.

Really, what would be fun would be to see She-Hulk and Daredevil face off in the courtroom. It would be even more fun if they had to take sides that they didn't agree with, ideologically. You're right that it would make more sense for Daredevil to be on defense and She-Hulk to be on prosecution (since she works for Shield/the Gov't anyway), I just think it would make a great story.

Law and Order: SRD (Superhero Registration Division)-- DUM DUM!

[fred]

Matt's out of jail and it's all good. I don't think She-Hulk will be helping much. She's pro-reg.

If I remember correctly, and I'm not in front of my books, didn't she argue with someone early on that she wasn't pro-reg but that she needed to fight the law from within the system?

I could be wrong

[paper]

If I remember correctly, and I'm not in front of my books, didn't she argue with someone early on that she wasn't pro-reg but that she needed to fight the law from within the system?

I could be wrong


That sounds right. She's also pretty and green.

[fred]

steroids are hot

she effed the Juggernaut, *****

[humphrey-lee]

Not in so many words, but the sentiment has been expressed. I would just call CW #7 a hugh disappointment.

Just number seven?

I kid I kid...... actually, no I don't, but I don't wanna hurt any feelings....