Bit Torrent-- yes i said it...

[Mikegraham6]

so one of the members recently mentioned how he downloads all his comics and doesn't buy them and i got me thinking about the whole Bit Torrent thing. with the comics industry in poor financial shape to begin with, how much do you think the downloading of comics online hurts the industry? do you think that this is a trend that will transfer to the major publishers. i remember hearing quesada say something about a possilble online comic shop (like itunes) which i think is a great idea, as long as its cheap.

I personally buy a shitload of comics, in fact i spend entirely too much of my money on it. but i also download some hard to find back issues and things that i would never be willing to spend the money on in the first place (various small civil war tie ins,various old runs of xmen). but if i find something i like i will always spend the extra money to buy it in trade form (thats how i bought rising stars). its still bad that i download (i know im a horrible person) but i cant justify to myself to spend anymore money on comics. maybe i should just lose someinterest in the subject matter i guess??? or get a higher paying job?
anyway i was wondering what the general opinion is on comic torrents (no need to say whether you download or not though..)

[WatsonGlenn]

I do not want to get into an argument about downloading and I could understand if the hosts or other members don't want this discussed, after all some of the advertisers sell comics, but I will say this.

I have bought comics for many years, but once I saw they could be shared over the net for free that was it for me. I save $100 a month. I cannot pass that up. I share a lot of things over bit Torrent and it has made my life easier.

At $3 a pop I just cannot justify buying comics anymore, especially since many of them are so mediocre. Now if every comic was Kingdom Come or New Frontier it might be differant but I have little sympathy for a company that charges $3 for Onslaught Reborn and then crows like they just invented fire.

I think the comic industry is in trouble in the long term for three reason, cost, quality and video games. The sharing of comics over the net does hurt them I'm sure help but they can't stop it anymore than they can cut costs, increase quality or get rid of video games.

[fred]

For many reasons this is a topic that we should probably stay away from, but I can't say that I don't understand your reasons.

[Six Gun]

I'm personaly against it, but then again, a lot of music falls off of a truck and onto my iPod and I don't find a problem with that. I don't know why that is.

My youth pastor is against any type of torrent, but my mom (my main spiritual counsel) is okay with the music thing.

What a quandry!

[Jimski]

Ohhhh... honestly, I don't know. I really don't.

The idea that it's wrong to read a book without paying for it would seem a lot more valid if not for the elephant in the room, the library-shaped elephant. Because my local librarians have a penchant for Sandman and Pedro & Me, I have been lucky enough to get turned on to a number of awesome things by reading them for free. Do ethics really demand that, if my library decides that Fun Home and Blankets are porn and doesn't buy them, then that's too bad for me? Even when I have a gigantic global library at my disposal?

At the same time, I have to come to terms in yet another context with the fact that not everyone thinks like me. Sure, some folks see downloading's potential as a way to try new things and then buy them, but many others just think, "Woohoo! Comics are free now!"

I would, however, assert that people who download comics are people who like comics, and people who like comics generally, regularly spend money on comics whether or not they download a few things.

One thing, though: you can't say, "I like reading comics, but they're overpriced, so I download them." I like driving Porsches, but they're overpriced; this does not entitle me to steal one should the opportunity present itself. If you like reading comics but they cost too much, well, that's just sort of too bad for you. Comics aren't heat or electricity; you don't need them.

[DarrOn]

Comics aren't heat or electricity; you don't need them.

Funny you mention that...there have been a few times I didn't quite get the cable/internet bill, or say, the gas bill out as promptly as I should have because I thought, "Oh, Absolute New Frontier is only $45.00? Who needs warm water, anyway?"

[acomicbookgirl]

You got Absolute New Frontier for $45?! Are you kidding me?! I saw it in Borders for $75.. :(

[jerome]

Funny you mention that...there have been a few times I didn't quite get the cable/internet bill, or say, the gas bill out as promptly as I should have because I thought, "Oh, Absolute New Frontier is only $45.00? Who needs warm water, anyway?"

Pay my bills is about the only thing Absolute New Frontier doesn't do for me.

[jerome]

You got Absolute New Frontier for $45?! Are you kidding me?! I saw it in Borders for $75.. :(

Amazon is your friend.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Amazon is your friend.

What he said.

[orlov]

Sometimes you just have to take advantage of a good thing even though its bad for someone else.

As for the people who post the scanned comics, you better be making money doing this or else you need to get a life.

[Hypertime McMultiverse]

Eh, it's just not the same thing as far as I'm concerned. I mean, a song is a song is a song, whether it's on a disc or in a file. I can understand a downloaded track serving as an adequate replacement. But, a lil' computer screen and clunky software (CDisplay, FFView and all the imitators) just can't replace ink and paper.

I'll occasionally download stuff, but it's mostly rare or uncollected stuff that would be a real pain to track down (nevermind prohibitively expensive for just about anyone) or a new series that I would've just read in the comic book shop anyway.

[Jimski]

I'll occasionally download stuff, but it's mostly rare or uncollected stuff that would be a real pain to track down (nevermind prohibitively expensive for just about anyone) or a new series that I would've just read in the comic book shop anyway.

That's an excellent point I failed to raise. There are times, and more than a few of them, when you find yourself saying, "I would gladly buy that book to read it. Where do I buy it? Who do I pay?" and the answer is "we haven't published that in any format since 1986." You should pay for the things you want to own, but 90% of the time in comics, it's not like you're paying the publisher; you're paypalling Steve in Arizona who bought it and bagged it fifteen years ago.

This issue may actually be made entirely out of Gray Area.

Before iTunes, I used to have this debate about music, and I would say, "I'd gladly pay for my MP3s; too bad no one is selling them. If you don't want illegal free downloads, give me the opportunity to buy them somewhere. Otherwise, suck it up." The music industry eventually came through, sort of (DRM is still a problem) and now comics need to step up to the marketplace. I can't wait to see what they have up their sleeves, and how much they charge when printing, paper, and shipping costs are not part of the equation.

[Mikegraham6]

That's an excellent point I failed to raise. There are times, and more than a few of them, when you find yourself saying, "I would gladly buy that book to read it. Where do I buy it? Who do I pay?" and the answer is "we haven't published that in any format since 1986." You should pay for the things you want to own, but 90% of the time in comics, it's not like you're paying the publisher; you're paypalling Steve in Arizona who bought it and bagged it fifteen years ago.


pretty much the only way you can read miracleman now is by downloading it, and when everyone is saying that its one of alan moore's best works, im gonna hunt it down anyway i can

[jimmyp]

I've downloaded some comic torrents, but I've probably only ever read one or two of them. It's just not that enjoyable to read them on your pc. And looking over at my shelf...there's no contest. When you buy a book, like 300, nothing else can compare.

Ha, too bad you can't say the same for music or movies...

[iSteve]

Setting aside the obvious legal copyright issues involved, I think bit torrent has the potential to actually expand interest in comics. I think that the pool of readers who only read via download and do not actually buy floppies or trades has to be extremely small. Whereas the number of readers who routinely pay $30-60 a week for comics (and even more in trades) but also happen to download back issues of certain titles is much, much larger. I would argue that reading these older issues (even long runs) can stimulate interest in comic characters and the titles that feature them and thus prompt purchasing new issues of these comics.

Have you noticed that Bendis is making the first arc of Powers available online, even though it is also available for sale as a trade? He's not worried that the free online edition will eat into book profits, but he's betting that the online version will stimulate interest and therefore stimulate sales.

I wish Marvel and DC would also see this market potential and make available certain comics online to increase interest in their lines. As has been mentioned already, there are so many good stories that have not made their way into trades. What if Marvel and DC did the same thing as Bendis - make some of this older material either available to read free online or even to download in an iTunes format for a small fee?

[iSteve]

I've downloaded some comic torrents, but I've probably only ever read one or two of them. It's just not that enjoyable to read them on your pc. And looking over at my shelf...there's no contest. When you buy a book, like 300, nothing else can compare.

Ha, too bad you can't say the same for music or movies...

I agree that it's not quite the same to read a comic on a computer as to actually hold it in your hand. I feel the same way about newspapers. I love the feel of holding my daily paper and paging through it, even though I could probably get the same information from the internet.

As I've noted in other threads, one obstacle has to do with graphic orientation. Comics are formatted vertically, whereas most computer screens (actually all) are formatted horizontally. When you read comics digitally, you usually aren't able to see the whole page at the same time and thus have to scroll up and down. It can be awkward. But on the plus side, usually the comic (both art and words) are enlarged on the computer screen thus making reading easier. Also, if you are able to get beyond the whole scrolling business, another advantage of digital comics is the ability to read comics in long runs.

I see a lot of potential for digital comics. Would I only want to read them that way - I don't think so. I hope they never completely replace the real thing that I can hold in my hands. But can they suppliment and compliment actual books - yes, I think there is a place for them in comic fandom.

[Jimski]

I wish Marvel and DC would also see this market potential and make available certain comics online to increase interest in their lines. As has been mentioned already, there are so many good stories that have not made their way into trades. What if Marvel and DC did the same thing as Bendis - make some of this older material either available to read free online or even to download in an iTunes format for a small fee?

To give credit where it's due, Marvel does indeed "chum the waters" a bit with digital comics; marvel.com has a ton of stuff available to read online, though their weird Flash-based reader is not to my taste personally. Nonetheless, I have tried out a bunch of stuff that way, like the first issue of Thunderbolts and several older comics I missed.

[WatsonGlenn]

As I've noted in other threads, one obstacle has to do with graphic orientation. Comics are formatted vertically, whereas most computer screens (actually all) are formatted horizontally. When you read comics digitally, you usually aren't able to see the whole page at the same time and thus have to scroll up and down.

Technology will catch up to this problem. One solution is to use one of those wide screen LCD monitors and turn it sideways.

The benefits of online comics are:

Cost
Storage (Although these are big files, at least 10 MB per comic.)
Easy access

I recently downloaded a Flash comic. It was the Ultimates. It was like a comic audio book with pictures. Very easy to follow and really cool.

I would like to see some sort of handheld device to view comics with. The screen would have to be about as big as a comic page.

[fred]

I would like to see some sort of handheld device to view comics with. The screen would have to be about as big as a comic page.

This is already on the market. It's called a comic book

[iSteve]

To give credit where it's due, Marvel does indeed "chum the waters" a bit with digital comics; marvel.com has a ton of stuff available to read online, though their weird Flash-based reader is not to my taste personally. Nonetheless, I have tried out a bunch of stuff that way, like the first issue of Thunderbolts and several older comics I missed.

Not a big fan of Flash readers either.

[jerome]

For anyone interested, DC also has the first issues of almost all of their Vertigo books for free online.

[Baxter]

Eh, it's just not the same thing as far as I'm concerned. I mean, a song is a song is a song, whether it's on a disc or in a file. I can understand a downloaded track serving as an adequate replacement. But, a lil' computer screen and clunky software (CDisplay, FFView and all the imitators) just can't replace ink and paper.

I'll occasionally download stuff, but it's mostly rare or uncollected stuff that would be a real pain to track down (nevermind prohibitively expensive for just about anyone) or a new series that I would've just read in the comic book shop anyway.

I'm pretty much with you. If I can buy it I will, but for some things thats just not an option, so to the torrents I go.

[Six Gun]

What he said.

You mean what she said

[vanhel]

Working at a comic store part time, I get a discount which helps me abit with my comics. So I tend to buy most of comics/trades. Now when I hear about something that is so old/obscure that I can maybe get it if I go to a shedload of cons, then I'll DL it.

[WatsonGlenn]

This is already on the market. It's called a comic book

Oh right, never mind.

[K-Dizzle]

"I dont know" HA!

I do know. You are taking things that belong to someone else, and you are stealing them, flat out. Its really very simple. I have downloaded music, and I have downloaded comics as well. But the fact is YOU ARE STEALING. Lets call a spade a spade . If you live by any moral code (who dosent?) ie Christianity, Judism ,etc you are using technology to break "commandments". Ive seen this discussion all over the web and it is funny that people try to justify it. I listen to and collect rare recordings of obscure music. I can go to Soulseek any time and find the most obscure recordings you can imagine. I usually do it because I dont want to spend thousands of dollars on ebay, beacuse it is not in print. However I dont lie to myself and say its ok and that I am not stealing, because I am. Whos to blame? Itunes? Napster. Kazza? I think WE are responsible.

[acomicbookgirl]

Downloading comics? Doesn't exactly sit well with me... If you really want to, your conscience not mine..

[DarrOn]

I think WE are responsible.

*Slowly clapping*

Great signature, by the way.

[Hypertime McMultiverse]

If you live by any moral code (who dosent?) ie Christianity, Judism ,etc you are using technology to break "commandments".

Civil_War07_2007(Jesus-DCP).cbz

He died for our scans. Hyuck.

[Mikegraham6]

i wonder how long it will be until we get the iTunes type program that sells digital versions of back issues online. i would always much rather read a paper version of my comics (more portable that way) but it would be great to be able to fill in gaps without having to hunt down back issues, and i would like to do it legally.
i just hope the price range will fall in line with what we would expect from back issues (fifty/99 cents), its definitely something i would support

[UnnamedFrenchGuy]

I can't recall who suggested it but this idea is what I consider genius:


You prepay for 6 issues.
Every time they come out you go download them from dc.com or marvel.com
When they publish the trade they mail you a copy.


For me this would be ideal. You eventually get a trade so you can always read the thing in solid form. You don't have to store back issues. You get to read the issues at the same time as those who buy the paper issues.

I wonder who will be the first to do all out for the digital publishing of comics.

[kwok_talk]

I can't recall who suggested it but this idea is what I consider genius:


You prepay for 6 issues.
Every time they come out you go download them from dc.com or marvel.com
When they publish the trade they mail you a copy.


For me this would be ideal. You eventually get a trade so you can always read the thing in solid form. You don't have to store back issues. You get to read the issues at the same time as those who buy the paper issues.

I wonder who will be the first to do all out for the digital publishing of comics.

I would totally be for this if it happened, but I would wonder what the company’s incentive would be to subsequently give you a trade? They would already be selling a trade normally, which people would buy, so why incur the extra costs for the digital distribution and trade mailing?

[WatsonGlenn]

I do know. You are taking things that belong to someone else, and you are stealing them, flat out. Its really very simple.

I don't see it as stealing. I see it as sharing.

[Spiffy]

I don't see it as stealing. I see it as sharing.

How is it not stealing? I'd like to see an attempt at a rational argument that proves it's not stealing.

[K-Dizzle]

How is it not stealing? I'd like to see an attempt at a rational argument that proves it's not stealing. Ha! here we go again.

[Jimski]

This is starting to sound like a forum.

As I said, I think the whole thing is extremely conditional. The idea that downloading a book and reading it is stealing but driving the library and reading the same book for free is perfectly okay (you know, with Jesus) makes a cartoon question mark appear over my head. It all depends on the extent to which downloading is used like a library, and the extent to which it is used like a buffet. In my previous posts.... actually, just reread my previous posts.

[Mikegraham6]

I can't recall who suggested it but this idea is what I consider genius:


You prepay for 6 issues.
Every time they come out you go download them from dc.com or marvel.com
When they publish the trade they mail you a copy.


For me this would be ideal. You eventually get a trade so you can always read the thing in solid form. You don't have to store back issues. You get to read the issues at the same time as those who buy the paper issues.

I wonder who will be the first to do all out for the digital publishing of comics.


that is a genius idea, i would much rather read/buy trades, but im also impatient and want to read comics monthly. then when i have the individual issues i dont feel the need to buy the trade even though i rarely pull my back issues to reread them, but i reread my trades all the time! this solution would solve that problem!

where did you hear about this?

[iSteve]

This is starting to sound like a forum.

As I said, I think the whole thing is extremely conditional. The idea that downloading a book and reading it is stealing but driving the library and reading the same book for free is perfectly okay (you know, with Jesus) makes a cartoon question mark appear over my head. It all depends on the extent to which downloading is used like a library, and the extent to which it is used like a buffet. In my previous posts.... actually, just reread my previous posts.

The library illustration, while intriguing, doesn't quite fit the analogy. In the case of the library, you helped purchase that book you borrow by paying taxes. I suppose that the library analogy can work if you "contribute" to bit torrent and to the content providers, such as the publishers.

[Spiffy]

This is starting to sound like a forum.

As I said, I think the whole thing is extremely conditional. The idea that downloading a book and reading it is stealing but driving the library and reading the same book for free is perfectly okay (you know, with Jesus) makes a cartoon question mark appear over my head. It all depends on the extent to which downloading is used like a library, and the extent to which it is used like a buffet. In my previous posts.... actually, just reread my previous posts.

While that's the most rational argument I've heard yet, I agree with iSteve. But I'm with you on the premise. And this doesn't mean I don't download things, I do. Not comics, but I download the occasional song to test it out. If I like it though, I'll purchase it. I'm neurotic about my music collection though.

[K-Dizzle]

While that's the most rational argument I've heard yet, I agree with iSteve. But I'm with you on the premise. And this doesn't mean I don't download things, I do. Not comics, but I download the occasional song to test it out. If I like it though, I'll purchase it. I'm neurotic about my music collection though. Downloading a book gives you your own copy of it. Borrowing it from a library gives you the information, but you dont have a copy to keep to yourself. The same as renting a DVD from the video store. wether you pay for it or borrow it, you are getting to channel the information without keeping anything. Heres something fun to try, go to your local comic book store and get out you new cellphone/camera. Now open all the books you want to read and take a picture of each page. I'm sure the owner will have something to say about this. I think the technology makes the actual crime what it is. If you download music or movies, you own an exact digital copy of the media. The same applies to books. Download a file containing Y the LAst man issue #1. Now go to the store and get 16 lustre pages 2x and 1 sheet of high gloss. You can print this media so well now, with home computers and printers, you dont need to buy the book, you have an exact replica. I have friends who have done this, and the books look so good Jesus would cry.

[WatsonGlenn]

How is it not stealing? I'd like to see an attempt at a rational argument that proves it's not stealing.

Ok lets try. But remember its just an arguement not an invitation for abuse. Yeah I'm a little sensative.

"Bill buys a comic and shares it with his buddy. No money chages hands. Bill shares his comic with two friends. No money chagnes hands. Bill shares with 10,000 friends and no money changes hands."

Thats the very definition of sharing.

I know DC did not give permisiton for Bill to share but I believe Bill does not need permision to share a book he bought.

[paper]

Sounds like an STD.

I look at it like it's a bootleg dvd. Even if it's high quality, you're not getting the real deal. And it just feels dirty. It feels like cheating and getting away with it. So the Jiminy Cricket/Jim Lee perched on my shoulder won't let me hear the end of it.

If I can't pay for it, I can live without it.

[K-Dizzle]

I am hoping there will always be both. Both meaning "the real deal" and the digitel equivelant. Pertaining to moovies boooks and mu-zak.

[keithm]

I'll fully fess up to downloading comics, but only older things that I can't really find elsewhere. Somehow it just seems ok to me, as I'm not directly hurting the publisher. If I were to track down the old issues, the only people benefitting would be some ebay guy, or maybe my LCS(not that Reno has any LCS woth supporting). I do however find it despicable to dl new comics, more so than music or movies, as comics is a failing industry. The amount of people that do dl comics show that DC and MArvel really need to figure out a digital distribution system. I have heard one good model for this that went something like this: Each issues costs 99 cents and packaged with the comic is a 99 cent coupon that can be used only at a LCS, this way people won't see any financial risk in just trying an issue, and the retailers aren't hurt by digital sales.

[UnnamedFrenchGuy]

that is a genius idea, i would much rather read/buy trades, but im also impatient and want to read comics monthly. then when i have the individual issues i dont feel the need to buy the trade even though i rarely pull my back issues to reread them, but i reread my trades all the time! this solution would solve that problem!

where did you hear about this?

I can't recall where I heard this idea. I'm sure it was on one of the comic book podcasts I listen to. Might have been Raging Bullets.

[WatsonGlenn]

http://tech.msn.com/news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3225882&GT1=9132


Here is another reason I don't mind sharing comics. People are going crazy concerning the things they think they own. This guy thinks he own a dance.

To me that ridiculous.

[fred]

he owns pictures he drew of the dance

[UnnamedFrenchGuy]

I would totally be for this if it happened, but I would wonder what the company’s incentive would be to subsequently give you a trade? They would already be selling a trade normally, which people would buy, so why incur the extra costs for the digital distribution and trade mailing?

Essentially the cost of producing a digital copy is negligible as they already do everything digital right now. Bandwidth isn't free but the cost of still minimal. Essentially what you would be buying was the trade. This way they get the money up front. Hell, the presubscribers could probably pay for the entire trade print run (presubscribers and additional units) thus making all the trades sold to Borders, Amazon and the rest as pure profit. The digital issues you get would just be a bribe to get the preorders. Given the number of people who cry "I'd never read a digital copy!" I doubt this plan would have too much of a negative effect on issue sale which keeps the old school distribution system alive (retailers + diamond) thus delaying their objection. This would bring a measure of stability and reliability to the comic trade.

In the longer term it adds another avenue for future profit. Image 10 years later and the trade is out of print. If you want the issue then they'll happily sell you a digital copy for a small fee. This is pure gravy for them. Unlike a physical product there is no overhead to keeping your entire catalogue available for purchase (Or nearly no cost but as they say: Storage is cheap).

[vanhel]

Well that would be perfect, but they won't do it. You know why? Because they don't want to pay someone to go through and scan/set up something like that because it would cost more.

[Mikegraham6]

Well that would be perfect, but they won't do it. You know why? Because they don't want to pay someone to go through and scan/set up something like that because it would cost more.

i think they realize the amount of revenue they are losing from the downloading of digital comics offsets the extra cost in hiring more staff to create this program.
plus if we, the fans, show a general interest in this idea they WILL take notice in the demand for digital back issues.
and i know that at least marvel has already started this process because they have put out DVDs with entire runs of spidey, xmen and avengers (and i've been meaning to pick those up...)

[fred]

Well that would be perfect, but they won't do it. You know why? Because they don't want to pay someone to go through and scan/set up something like that because it would cost more.

many companies already scan their books to send out as 'screener copies' to reviewers so they already do it

[UnnamedFrenchGuy]

Well that would be perfect, but they won't do it. You know why? Because they don't want to pay someone to go through and scan/set up something like that because it would cost more.

I suppose I was sloppy with my language. When I said "entire catalogue" I meant your entire catalogue since you started doing everything in digital format. Going back and scaning the old back issues is something altogether diffrent.

[iSteve]

I suppose I was sloppy with my language. When I said "entire catalogue" I meant your entire catalogue since you started doing everything in digital format. Going back and scaning the old back issues is something altogether diffrent.

Newspapers are now doing this - scanning all back issues and making them searchable in digital format. It's a boon for researchers.

If they can do it, why not comics?

[fred]

or photos of Margot Kiddder with her head shaved

jeez

[iSteve]

or photos of Margot Kiddder with her head shaved

jeez

Still tolling for that one eh Fred.

[fred]

it's impossible

[Jimski]

Newspapers are now doing this - scanning all back issues and making them searchable in digital format. It's a boon for researchers.

Actually, my previous job was doing a pilot digitization project for the local Historical Society. I found that if you have the right tools, it can be done, but the right tools include hundreds of interns* who stand there and put the books into the machines one page at a time meticulously enough to eliminate do-overs and handling damage. It's pretty time-consuming no matter how you slice it. Then, ten years from now, standard image resolutions are twice as high, and you have to do the whole effin' thing over again.

*("tools" in this context is not meant to be pejorative)

[Labor_Days]

I don't really think dowloading a few comics is grounds for a lynching or that the subject is beyond discussion. My feelings are thus;

1. I buy most of my comics. Easier to read.
2. I have downloaded a few comics I was unsure of or could not easily find.
3. If I like it I buy. People deserve to be paid for their work.

That's just my two cents. Digital comics just don't read right. It's like those E-books. The idea behind them is neat. But I gotta have something I can hold in my hands.

[Luthor]

I think a big part of the reason we haven't seen a lot of older material redone in digital has a lot to do with creator rights. I would imagine it's murky territory, as wording in most contracts would talk about "reprinting" and say nothing about the source material being presented in a digital manner.

[UnnamedFrenchGuy]

Newspapers are now doing this - scanning all back issues and making them searchable in digital format. It's a boon for researchers.

If they can do it, why not comics?

I'm sure they can. The problem is one of quality. Comics today are produced in a digital from from high quality scans of the original art. Scanning old comics will have to be done from the end product and not the original art thus lesser quality. Sure it's worth doing but it's a shame we don't have the original art a la EC archives.

[WatsonGlenn]

Well that would be perfect, but they won't do it. You know why? Because they don't want to pay someone to go through and scan/set up something like that because it would cost more.

The don't have to pay anyone. The comics are already scanned and on the net. Just go get them and sell them on DVDs.

[Jimski]

Marvel's Jeff Parker wonders the same thing I do. (http://www.parkerspace.com/2007/02/20/okay-im-not-showing-you-this-link-right/)

[Big Doze]

About 7 months ago I moved to Japan, and as you can imagine it's a bit tough to find comics in English over here. I download comics, recent ones, because that's the only way that I can read them.

Yes, it's stealing, but I can't muster up any sort of guilt for in. In the states I always bought comics, and even today I greatly prefer to read the selection of trades I brought with me rather than sit at a computer catching up. Having the physical comic is just part of the experience. Anything else is greatly lacking.

When I return stateside I'll probably drop a huge bundle catching up on physical copies I've missed, but for now I'm downloading with no guilt. I appreciate the availability of this art form to people who don't have access to a comic shop.

[iSteve]

Digital age plays villain, hero in future of comics
By Caroline McCarthy
CNET News

NEW YORK--We live in a digital world, and the New York City Comic Convention did not try to sweep that fact under the rug.
NYC ComicCon, which took over Manhattan's Jacob K. Javits Convention Center from Friday through Sunday, was loaded with plenty of new-media alternatives to traditional comics: mobile products from comic site GoComics, DVDs packed with classic Marvel serials, and video games galore. Compared with the high-definition screens and surround-sound effects, boxes of comic books in protective plastic sleeves--supposedly the central focus of the convention--came across as somewhat quaint.

It raised the question of whether the practice of collecting and reading comics stands a chance in an age in which the younger generation has so much else to choose from.

The comic industry, after all, is a mature one--most of the NYC ComicCon attendees perusing the classic comic books and tie-in toys were clearly grown-ups. I stopped to speak with two thirty-something men who were ogling a display of Marvel superhero figurines and asked them which they were interested in. "The little ones," one of them said. "We both have kids now." But the majority of under-18s (under-25s, even) at ComicCon focused their attention elsewhere.

"That generation is lost," said Vincent Zurzolo, chief operating officer of New York-based comic retailer Metropolis Collectibles. "They like playing video games."

It's not that kids don't love comics. In addition to video games and strategy games like Magic: The Gathering, both graphic novels and Japanese manga are big with them. That includes both original works and those that tied to entertainment--everything from upcoming horror movie The Hills Have Eyes 2 to the adventures of the pop singer Avril Lavigne. (Yes, really.)

With so much diverse media to pick from, it isn't particularly surprising that the "IM generation" prefers its comic experience to be one of consumption rather than collection.
"The audience (of comic fans) is now all over the media," said Steve Saffel, an independent content developer for science fiction and comics. He was here helping out some of his friends at the booth for Charlotte, N.C.-based comic store Heroes Aren't Hard To Find.

"Young readers today are on the Internet, playing video games, watching films, reading comics and books. The key is going to be to put the content where the audience is," he said.

Saffel is not alone in thinking that the comic industry should accept that in today's wired, content-rich world, there's more than one way to deliver a product.

"There are two kinds of comic fans," said Russell Williams, the CEO of Flying Labs Software, which offered a demo of the beta for its upcoming online role-playing game, Pirates of the Burning Sea. "There are the collectors, and then there are people who just enjoy it for what it is." He pointed out a display of Marvel DVDs that contain hundreds of digitized versions of classic Spider-Man comics, and proudly declared that DVDs had made it possible for him to bring 2,500 comic books on the plane with him.

"I've always got it with me," Williams said of the collection.
According to Williams, the digital age has opened up a whole new set of possibilities for the comic industry. "Technology is now getting to the point where the market can follow the people who don't have the time" or space to maintain a comic book collection, he said. Digital comics, Williams added, can give fans access to older titles that would otherwise be in storage. If his prediction is correct, this will open up a whole new segment of the comic fan market.

Williams doesn't believe that new media will kill the paper comic book trade. "The collectors will always exist, no matter what," he said.

From the helm of a software company, Williams naturally had positive things to say about technology's effect on comics. But for others, the situation is a bit more ambiguous. I asked Vincent Zurzolo of Metropolis Collectibles what he thought about technology's effect on the industry. "I think it's definitely going to have a small effect" on comic book sales," he said, adding that he didn't believe it would be a tremendous threat.

"You're always going to have a vintage market because not everything's reprinted," Zurzolo said.

Zurzolo had a point. Sad though it may be, the salvation of traditional comics may be their monetary value--something that doesn't carry over into the world of software or online media. "There's the investment factor. Anybody who collects comic books with the idea of making money in the future can't do that with electronic media," Zurzolo said.

Saffel agreed: "The investment side of comic collecting has become so sophisticated."

Still, Zurzolo has faith in comic books' ability to survive the digital revolution even without the financial factor taken into account. "There's something about holding a comic book in your hand," he said. "There's something tactile about it, something about owning the actual comic."

And that's one experience that a piece of software just can't offer--at least until technology makes some kind of leap that we have yet to imagine.

[fred]

I really liked the Hickman concept of having digital comics with drill down context and continuity options

[xyzzy]

Ok lets try. But remember its just an arguement not an invitation for abuse. Yeah I'm a little sensative.

"Bill buys a comic and shares it with his buddy. No money chages hands. Bill shares his comic with two friends. No money chagnes hands. Bill shares with 10,000 friends and no money changes hands."

Thats the very definition of sharing.

I know DC did not give permisiton for Bill to share but I believe Bill does not need permision to share a book he bought.

There's a distinct difference between sharing and copying. Once you buy a copy of the book, you can do whatever the hell you want with it. You can throw it away, give it away, loan it, whatever. What you cannot do is copy it for distribution of any sort. And that is what these p2p services do.

If you want to go ahead and infringe on copyrights, go ahead. I can't stop you. But don't pretend like it isn't a wrong.

[WatsonGlenn]

If you want to go ahead and infringe on copyrights, go ahead. I can't stop you. But don't pretend like it isn't a wrong.

I see your point but I still see it as sharing. Its similar to me coming over and listening to your records withouth paying Cher.

[xyzzy]

I see your point but I still see it as sharing. Its similar to me coming over and listening to your records withouth paying Cher.

How is it the same? In that scenario there's one copy. Mine, that I paid for. In a p2p scenario, there are at least two. One paid for and one not.

[WatsonGlenn]

How is it the same? In that scenario there's one copy. Mine, that I paid for. In a p2p scenario, there are at least two. One paid for and one not.

In both of my scenarios there is one purchase that two people enjoy. In both of my scenarios no money is exchanged.

Thats sharing.

[xyzzy]

In both of my scenarios there is one purchase that two people enjoy. In both of my scenarios no money is exchanged.

Thats sharing.

It's the number of copies made that is relevant. When I share something with you by lending you a book or cd, for example, I no longer have that thing because you are using it. That is sharing. If we both use the same copy at the same time, that is sharing. If I keep mine and give you a copy, that is copying and is both illegal and immoral.

There's nothign wrong with sharing. But what you describe is copying and/or distribution.

[WatsonGlenn]

It's the number of copies made that is relevant.

I'm sure its relavent to the companies but I am not sure how its relavent to the concept of sharing.

There's nothign wrong with sharing. But what you describe is copying and/or distribution.

To me you are using differant words to describe the same thing.

[paper]

Literalism. Cute.

There's also a pragmatic definition for sharing: passing along things to friends, people you've met, passing a long something tactile to a person who can smile in return. Distribution of copied material to the faceless hordes of the web goes a ways beyond the socially acceptable parameters of sharing.

[WatsonGlenn]

Distribution of copied material to the faceless hordes of the web goes a ways beyond the socially acceptable parameters of sharing.

In what way? Is it there some point where too much sharing becomes stealing? I must have missed that part of the Sermon on the Mount. Did Jesus share too many fishes and loaves. After all he did not pay for them, he just copied and shared them with the faceless hordes.

If I am stealing then so is the library. If they are not then I'm not. IMO.

[paper]

I love that you just compared yourself to Christ feeding the poor. Hilarious. I'm done.

[Mikegraham6]

i download some comics, i also spend a shitload of money on them. im not using that as a justification though. my question to you: if i download a comic that i would otherwise not have purchased (say for example a torrent containing all the MAX books, including a thor book) and i really enjoy this book. by reading this illegal copy i go out and buy trades of ESSENTIAL thor and then buy Strazynski's new thor series and therefore marvel gets its back issue money threw the trade puchases and its new money by having me follow the new series. yet i would never have had any interest in the character had i not read this series that i got illegally and would not have sought out myself except for the fact it was in a torrent with other material i was interested in.
so in this situation marvel would be making more potential money off of me from the small lose of having me download a small 5 issue miniseries.
im not justifiying downloading, but i do think there are some interesting grey areas.

[xyzzy]

In what way? Is it there some point where too much sharing becomes stealing? I must have missed that part of the Sermon on the Mount. Did Jesus share too many fishes and loaves. After all he did not pay for them, he just copied and shared them with the faceless hordes.

If I am stealing then so is the library. If they are not then I'm not. IMO.

The library paid for its copy. You didn't.

I'm not even going to bother addressing the crazy Jesus analogy.

[xyzzy]

I'm sure its relavent to the companies but I am not sure how its relavent to the concept of sharing.

It's relevant to the rule of law, as well.



To me you are using differant words to describe the same thing.

You need to develop your vocabulary a little bit more, then. I honestly can't believe that you don't understand the difference between sharing one copy and making multiple copies.

[xyzzy]

i download some comics, i also spend a shitload of money on them. im not using that as a justification though. my question to you: if i download a comic that i would otherwise not have purchased (say for example a torrent containing all the MAX books, including a thor book) and i really enjoy this book. by reading this illegal copy i go out and buy trades of ESSENTIAL thor and then buy Strazynski's new thor series and therefore marvel gets its back issue money threw the trade puchases and its new money by having me follow the new series. yet i would never have had any interest in the character had i not read this series that i got illegally and would not have sought out myself except for the fact it was in a torrent with other material i was interested in.
so in this situation marvel would be making more potential money off of me from the small lose of having me download a small 5 issue miniseries.
im not justifiying downloading, but i do think there are some interesting grey areas.


I'm not seeing the question in there anyway. Regardless, it doesn't matter how much you spend. It's still unethical to take something that doesn't belong to you.

[WatsonGlenn]

I love that you just compared yourself to Christ feeding the poor. Hilarious. I'm done.

Very dramatic exit. Well done.

[WatsonGlenn]

The library paid for its copy. You didn't.

Someone paid for the original copy of the comic being shared and as for the library the people who borrow from the library did not pay for the copy. Its the same thing.

I'm not even going to bother addressing the crazy Jesus analogy.

Why say you are not going to do something while in the very process of doing it?

[WatsonGlenn]

It's relevant to the rule of law, as well.

I understand that. Thats not the issue. The questio is, how is it relevant to the concept of sharing How is it not sharing just because its done more than once.

You need to develop your vocabulary a little bit more, then.

Lets not start that negative style of posting. My vocabulary is just fine.

[xyzzy]

I understand that. Thats not the issue. The questio is, how is it relevant to the concept of sharing How is it not sharing just because its done more than once.

How many times it is done is not relevant. You can share one book as many times as you want.



Lets not start that negative style of posting. My vocabulary is just fine.

Hey, that's me assuming the best case scenario for you. The other is that you're just being willfully ignorant. I see you ignored this part, "I honestly can't believe that you don't understand the difference between sharing one copy and making multiple copies."

Sorry that I hurt your feelings, but I really have little sympathy for someone with such a lack of morals.

[WatsonGlenn]

Sorry that I hurt your feelings, but I really have little sympathy for someone with such a lack of morals.


I'm sorry you feel that way and I sorry you feel the need to be insulting on a board with practically none, that I have seen, of that sort of behavior.

I like to talk about comics and ideas not the morals of other posters.

[xyzzy]

I'm sorry you feel that way and I sorry you feel the need to be insulting on a board with practically none, that I have seen, of that sort of behavior.

I just call 'em like I see 'em.

How else do you respond to a person who admits to taking something doesn't belong to them and expresses no remorse over it?


I like to talk about comics and ideas not the morals of other posters.

Then what are you doing in this thread at all?

[jerome]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/7/7b/180px-Liefeld_captain_america.jpg

[ConorKilpatrick]

Aaaaand we're done.

Try to place nicer next time, folks.