Gay Characters in comics, Do you care?

[jo-relrollins]

Okay ladies and gentlemen,i have a question. As a gay male i always wondered about about others opinions on this matter. I feel tht older characters should be left alone. I mean if the matter works in the story and with the character i don't care. But in the last few years characters have been turning out to be gay or bi for shock value. Its becoming horrible. So i ask you this,would it matter to you if one of your fav characters came out the closet. Now if it was in character. Just a thought.



--Also who is your current favorite-well-written gay or bi character past or present?

[xyzzy]

I have no particular attachments to "old" characters, so I don't feel any differently about them being gay than any other character. I like well written gay characters in my comics because it means that I can convince my best bud (who's gay) to read them. So, I'm not really sure how to answer your poll. I do care (in a positive way) when there are gay characters in my book. But I don't think that's what you meant by your options.

The best witten gay character? I like Capt. Traynor from Top Ten. The Forty Niners OGN, in particular.

[kwok_talk]

I don’t think I’ve really thought too much about the issue, sorry to say, but I guess the most recent time I’ve thought about gay characters was the recent Ultimate X-men storyline between Colossus and Nightcrawler. While it was kind of a shock for me for him to be gay (mostly b/c you associate him as always being with Kitty from the Uncanny days), I don’t feel like they threw it in your face to boast like “hey look at us, we have a gay character!” The twist of having Nightcrawler reject Peter was devastating to me just b/c he is one of my favorite characters. To have him disagree with Peter about his sexuality would be one thing, but to basically have him become a bigot sucked for me personally.

I guess the only other “coming out” events I can think of are Batgirl (which just seemed like a publicity thing) and Northstar back in the 90’s (which also kind of felt like it was just to boost sales of the book), which if they were just for shock value (ie. boost sales) is pretty bad.

[jaflanagan]

You'd probably get some different poll results on some other boards.

[paper]

If it's in character, it's in character.

[masherscf]

Well, he's not in comic books. But, Captain Jack Harkness from BBC's "Torchwood" kicks some major ass.

[labor_days]

I only object if a character's sexuality is used for shock value or in an exploitive manner. Otherwise, why should it matter? So no, I don't really lose sleep over a comic book character's sexual orientation.

[jaflanagan]

I was also always a fan of the utter subversion of Apollo and Midnighter. They never ever played that for laughs, and went for easy stupid jokes. They were just badass dudes, who happened to be together. I don't know what it's like these days, but back when it started, that was always done really well.

[jo-relrollins]

You'd probably get some different poll results on some other boards.

Yeah probably,but my main thinking was that i've noticed with alot of the larger companies alot of characters have been altered to boost sales. Not just this subject, but with characters who are heroes becoming villians and vice versa. I was just curious on various ppls opinions on the fact that lately for shock value changes have been made to the status quo. When i first got into comics it was because of stories. Now it looks as though just to get new readers or to shock us changes are made in rash and unneeded manner.

[watsonglenn]

Okay ladies and gentlemen, I have a question. As a gay male i always wondered about about others opinions on this matter.

If I answer this question truthfully people will get upset and the thread will be closed so the question is should I:

1. answer the way I feel
2. give the PC response
3. not say anything.

[masherscf]

If I answer this question truthfully people will get upset and the thread will be closed so the question is should I:

1. answer the way I feel
2. give the PC response
3. not say anything.

Why don't you take option 1, but try and be tactful.

If not tactful, just don't violate Forum rules.

[jo-relrollins]

Yeah i mean the truth will set u free. And if the comments wrong, i'll just ask the Purple Man to ask you to change your answer.

[watsonglenn]

Why don't you take option 1, but try and be tactful.

If not tactful, just don't violate Forum rules.

Oh I'm almost always tactful and I always, always follow forum rules. But no matter how I say this the reaction will be aggressive from someone, guaranteed.

[watsonglenn]

Yeah i mean the truth will set u free. And if the comments wrong, i'll just ask the Purple Man to ask you to change your answer.

Who's the Purple Man? Oh you mean THE Purple Man. I'm a Mesmero guy myself.

[fred]

I think that the number of gay characters in comics should be closer to proportional with the percentage of gays in real life. Do I think there should be quotas? No, of course not, but I'm always glad to see another one introduced in a tasteful way.

Ultimate Nightcrawler's an asshole and I'll leave it there

[fred]

The poll question was kind of tough because I consider it a positive thing. So to answer Yes I care would seem to indicate that I care in a negative way. Not a criticism really, just a thought

[masherscf]

I think that the number of gay characters in comics should be closer to proportional with the percentage of gays in real life.

How many characters have healthy sex lives anyway? Would it have mattered if Peter Parker pined away for Harry Osborne instead of Mary Jane?

I think it boils down to if the writing is good or bad.

[fred]

one more thing, because I'm on a jag at this point

It was Morrison's run on X-Men where the Beast came out right? He wasn't actually gay but decided gay mutants needed a role model. That was cool. I liked that Morrison understood the Beast enough to know that he'd be secure enough with himself to do something that would help other people who might feel confused and alone. These are feelings he could relate to.

And on the difference between this board and others, Josh is totally right. The poll results at some place like(just for instance) Newsarama would be totally flipped right now and people would be insulting one another left and right. I like that we can actually be civilized when it's called for.

[luthor]

I don't really give a rats ass. As long as it's well written and isn't done for the sake of doing it, I don't care.

As an aside...wasn't Connor Hawke gay(or at least implied) at one point?

[fred]

How many characters have healthy sex lives anyway? Would it have mattered if Peter Parker pined away for Harry Osborne instead of Mary Jane?

I think it boils down to if the writing is good or bad.

You missed my point. It's irrelevant who PP pines away for. What I'd like to see is more gay characters. I think that the comics industry could make itself more broadly representative. That's all

I don't even mean changing existing characters, but once in a while a new character should be gay.

Estimations(that I've heard) range between 5% and 20% of people being gay, what is it in comics? .5% - 1%

[paper]

This reminds me of Kavalier and Clay again. How much of those court cases and investigations were historically-based? All the Batman/Robin stuff. Did that kind of thing even happen? A little off-topic, but I was just wondering.

[fred]

I don't really give a rats ass. As long as it's well written and isn't done for the sake of doing it, I don't care.

As an aside...wasn't Connor Hawke gay(or at least implied) at one point?

It was implied for a while that he was but ultimately it was revealed that he was quiet and reserved, but not gay. It was kind of a copout. Also, the old guy in GA was said to be gay for a while and then revealed not to be

[xyzzy]

You missed my point. It's irrelevant who PP pines away for. What I'd like to see is more gay characters. I think that the comics industry could make itself more broadly representative. That's all

I don't even mean changing existing characters, but once in a while a new character should be gay.

Estimations(that I've heard) range between 5% and 20% of people being gay, what is it in comics? .5% - 1%

If that. There should be more Latino, Asian and Black characters, as well.

[kwok_talk]

one more thing, because I'm on a jag at this point

It was Morrison's run on X-Men where the Beast came out right? He wasn't actually gay but decided gay mutants needed a role model. That was cool. I liked that Morrison understood the Beast enough to know that he'd be secure enough with himself to do something that would help other people who might feel confused and alone. These are feelings he could relate to.
.

I totally forgot about the Beast thing. Good example

[fred]

If that. There should be more Latino, Asian and Black characters, as well.

I agree 100%. just to say this one final time, I don't argue for quotas; I argue for consideration

[labor_days]

There should be more Latino, Asian and Black characters, as well.
Yep, there definetly should be more of us. And not have their names prefaced with "black" or be presented as some horrid stereotype either. See: Black Goliath, Black Samson, Black Vulcan, Extrano, any Asian person who is assumed to know martial arts /shudder

edited: consideration. exactly.

[fred]

Yep, there definetly should be more of us. And not have their names prefaced with "black" or be presented as some horrid stereotype either. See: Black Goliath, Black Samson, Black Vulcan, Extrano, any Asian person who is assumed to know martial arts /shudder

edited: consideration. exactly.

The 'Black' name preface thing is so oddly off-putting. Why was that necessary?

[masherscf]

You missed my point.

I didn't miss your point. You missed mine. I was agreeing with you.

I was just wondering how often sexuality enters into plots anyway.

[labor_days]

The 'Black' name preface thing is so oddly off-putting. Why was that necessary?I don't know why they did that sort of thing. Maybe they thought people couldn't tell by skin tone alone. Terrible.

[luthor]

Yep, there definetly should be more of us. And not have their names prefaced with "black" or be presented as some horrid stereotype either. See: Black Goliath, Black Samson, Black Vulcan, Extrano, any Asian person who is assumed to know martial arts /shudder

edited: consideration. exactly.

As a white guy, I really liked Black Lightning's explanation of his name in Infinite Crisis. Something along the lines of "When I started doing this I was the only one. It was important that everyone knew." In my mind that took away the exploitive nature of the name and turned it into something with pride.

[fred]

I didn't miss your point. You missed mine. I was agreeing with you.

I was just wondering how often sexuality enters into plots anyway.

I get what you mean. My bad

[fred]

now that was post-whoring

[big-doze]

As everyone else is saying, it all boils down to the writing. If a character is written organically and realistically, and not in some overly-dramatized or stereotypical way, I'm happy to see gay characters in comics. Wiccan and Hulkling in Young Avegers is my current favorite example (along with being two of my favorite characters at the moment). Great, natural characterization of two teenagers in love.

In the Beast vein, I like the idea of introducing gay characters who can help younger characters become comfortable with their sexuality, as is often the case in real life. I really respect people who take on that role in real life, and it's made me appreciate characters like Northstar (who had a teacher/mentor relationship with Anole in New X-Men) all the more, where I wasn't really interested in them before.

Bottom line: I care, but only to make sure that the characters are treated with respect.

PS: As a black guy, I recently made a list of every black hero I could find, comparing the good characters with the lame stereotypes. If you wanna see how I broke it down, lemme know and I'll post the list.

EDIT: As a MOSTLY black guy. Didn't want to decieve.

[masherscf]

now that was post-whoring

Honestly, I think anything that helps any youth feel less "wrong" about being who they were born to be is probably a good thing.

[big-doze]

As a white guy, I really liked Black Lightning's explanation of his name in Infinite Crisis. Something along the lines of "When I started doing this I was the only one. It was important that everyone knew." In my mind that took away the exploitive nature of the name and turned it into something with pride.

I really liked that too. Great touch to a character who's on his way to being awesome.

[fred]

Honestly, I think anything that helps any youth feel less "wrong" about being who they were born to be is probably a good thing.

That's totally true and it's where i'm coming from in all of this. I, and maybe many of us, really relate to alienation. As a result, I'm into anything that decreases it for people, especially teens.

[fred]

As everyone else is saying, it all boils down to the writing. If a character is written organically and realistically, and not in some overly-dramatized or stereotypical way, I'm happy to see gay characters in comics. Wiccan and Hulkling in Young Avegers is my current favorite example (along with being two of my favorite characters at the moment). Great, natural characterization of two teenagers in love.

In the Beast vein, I like the idea of introducing gay characters who can help younger characters become comfortable with their sexuality, as is often the case in real life. I really respect people who take on that role in real life, and it's made me appreciate characters like Northstar (who had a teacher/mentor relationship with Anole in New X-Men) all the more, where I wasn't really interested in them before.

Bottom line: I care, but only to make sure that the characters are treated with respect.

PS: As a black guy, I recently made a list of every black hero I could find, comparing the good characters with the lame stereotypes. If you wanna see how I broke it down, lemme know and I'll post the list.

EDIT: As a MOSTLY black guy. Didn't want to decieve.

You should post it in a new thread. I'd be interested in that.

[k-dizzle]

I dont care if a comic book character is gay. I dont care if a human being is gay, as long as they are happy, and they dont try to 'gay' me.

[masherscf]

... and they dont try to 'gay' me.

You're a cutie...

[k-dizzle]

You're a cutie...You are obviously not gay. I know gay people and even the guys turned on by ‘bears’ tell me I couldn’t get laid in a truck stop.

[fred]

that's pretty bad man

[masherscf]

Just, feel the love...

[fred]

the problem is that he can't


owwwwhhhh

[hometeam790]

Honestly, I don't as long as it makes sense for the character.

Although, and maybe its just me, but it seems like whenever Judd Winnick goes onto a new title it seems like he puts in a gay character just to have a gay character.

[k-dizzle]

Just, feel the love...

true story: As a teen I was a total homophobe, for no reason at all.
My step dad, a crazy hippie musician,heard me dissing the gays and said ' why do you hate gay guys?
they think your ugly just like the girls do'. i lauged so hard at the truth and honesty behind that joke I stopped being an ignorant **** head.

[fred]

I think that Winick feels a strong desire to educate the public and shift the medium

[k-dizzle]

sometimes I picture booster gold with a big black cock in his ass. Is that something I should worry about?

[fred]

dude, what the hell?

[k-dizzle]

dude, what the hell? I am laughing Hysterically

[fred]

we're all talking serious and shit

and you go booster gold fat cock on the thread

[k-dizzle]

we're all talking serious and shit

and you go booster gold fat cock on the thread Yeah that was the point. How that particular sentence phrased that way, popped into my head I will never know. I typed it up and giggled a bit. Then I read it again followed by your reply. I am still laughing.

[fred]

the word 'picture' is probably the most troubling from your perspective

[fred]

Have you heard of the new movie coming out with Dakota Fanning where she's raped? She's only 12 so it's a big deal. I actually heard a reviewer from Fox say: 'It wasn't all that I imagined it to be'

What? Dude post a note when you move into my neighborhood so I can take my kids and go

[k-dizzle]

Have you heard of the new movie coming out with Dakota Fanning where she's raped? She's only 12 so it's a big deal. I actually heard a reviewer from Fox say: 'It wasn't all that I imagined it to be'

What? Dude post a note when you move into my neighborhood so I can take my kids and go I heard about it, but dont remember the name of the film. I saw an interview with a few
Psychologists saying she was too young to be portraying a rape victem and that it would scar her and blahh blahh blahh. Didn’t Jenifer Jason Leigh make a carrer of this?

[fred]

What the hell are her parents thinking? Is she that large a cash cow? Really

but for me, the reviewer thing -wicked creepy

[k-dizzle]

What the hell are her parents thinking? Is she that large a cash cow? Really

but for me, the reviewer thing -wicked creepyInnocence is all but gone to money hungry Hollywood parents. Look at mcaully caulkin. Wow I know I spelled that wrong.

[fred]

I think it's macauley culkin

but anyway

or ask gary coleman
poor guy doing security and signing shit at cons because his parents stole his money

[k-dizzle]

most child actors are victims of the 'booster gold back door blitz'

[fred]

nice
don't you mean the 'boost your gold'?

[k-dizzle]

Touché!
!!!!!!!!!!

[fred]

I'm poster gold
or else I'm just punchdrunk and stretching

[k-dizzle]

I'm poster gold
or else I'm just punchdrunk and stretching your alomst there man, dont quit now. I on the other hand have achieved my goal. thanx. Talk to you later.

[fred]

your alomst there man, dont quit now. I on the other hand have achieved my goal. thanx. Talk to you later.

thank you sir
i would've talked to myself but it was fun not to

[acomicbookgirl]

I think that Winick feels a strong desire to educate the public and shift the medium


And his desire to educate the public is the reason why I fell in love with comics.. Why I will always lend people my Pedro and Me book to non comic book readers. Finally, why he is one of my favorite all time writers..

[jaflanagan]

the whole cock thing doesn't really add much to the dialog and probably discourages actual discussion from taking place, so in this rare occasion, I'll politely suggest you try to stay on target. Thanks.

I like Winnick for just that say reason. Sometimes I don't think his stories quite match up with his ambition, but I think we're much better off with him than without him.

[jimski]

Like the movie Memento, I just started following this thread from most recent to oldest post, and at this point I cannot imagine how the hell we got here. Unlike Memento, I'm not sticking it out to the "beginning" to find out.

I will say that I often find gay characters occupying a very weird area in comics. In Runaways, for example, the relationship between Karolina and Xavin is "gay," but in a Skrull way that calls attention to how weird the whole thing is. Everyone who has sex in Y the Last Man is having gay sex, but again, strange circumstances.

I avoided this thread for a while because I expected it to be controversial in a way that didn't interest me, but also because I could think of very few gay characters I knew anything about. Then I remembered that I had set my entire run of Young Avengers aside for rereading because, when the letter columns started in about the controversy over the main characters' gay relationship, I said, "the main whats' whichnow?" I literally didn't even notice they were gay. Take from that what you will.

[fred]

the first page of the thread was the best

[jo-relrollins]

JImski that rocks. Because in my respect, i love when a book does it in a way that its so fluid that you don't notice. But when it becomes a "sweeps" event. Its kinda like what next, Cyclops taking out Xavier. And Batman becoming Superman.

[jo-relrollins]

Yah, the first page was the best. It was actual intelligent dialogue. It got off base somewhere.

[acomicbookgirl]

the first page of the thread was the best

You think? :confused: I was turned off til Josh said something..

[fred]

You think? :confused: I was turned off til Josh said something..

it was going pretty good until the Booster Gold thing, I thought anyway

[ariastar]

Okay ladies and gentlemen,i have a question. As a gay male i always wondered about about others opinions on this matter. I feel tht older characters should be left alone. I mean if the matter works in the story and with the character i don't care. But in the last few years characters have been turning out to be gay or bi for shock value. Its becoming horrible. So i ask you this,would it matter to you if one of your fav characters came out the closet. Now if it was in character. Just a thought.



--Also who is your current favorite-well-written gay or bi character past or present?


I'm a straight female and still find it detestable when gayness is used for shock value. Who the fuck cares? I don't care a character's orientation as long as he or she still kicks ass. Plenty of straight guys are pansies and plenty of gay guys are macho and can kick the shit out of a Hell's Angel. I know that for certain things, there's this guy-gets-girl in the end, basically adding sex. Personally I wouldn't care if it's guy-gets-guy, but I can see straight guys having a bit of a problem with this because they can't have their little sex fantasies.

You know, I'd like it if Wolverine turned out to be gay. If he has been outed, I missed it. And I'll go hide now before someone kicks my ass.

[jo-relrollins]

I'm a straight female and still find it detestable when gayness is used for shock value. Who the fuck cares? I don't care a character's orientation as long as he or she still kicks ass. Plenty of straight guys are pansies and plenty of gay guys are macho and can kick the shit out of a Hell's Angel. I know that for certain things, there's this guy-gets-girl in the end, basically adding sex. Personally I wouldn't care if it's guy-gets-guy, but I can see straight guys having a bit of a problem with this because they can't have their little sex fantasies.

You know, I'd like it if Wolverine turned out to be gay. If he has been outed, I missed it. And I'll go hide now before someone kicks my ass.

Can i say u rock. Just had to note that sorry.

[ariastar]

Can i say u rock. Just had to note that sorry.

No need to apologize, and thank you. :) I just don't understand why a lot of people hate people for loving each other. It's like, Dude, spent time hating molesters, not two guys or two girls in love.

And I'd like to see Wolverine turn out to be gay to show that gays can be macho too, that someone is no less of a man just for loving another guy.

Part of my beliefs on this may have to do with my proximity to San Francisco. I've got no problem with two guys holding hands or giving each other a kiss. It's sweet and love, regardless of who it's between, should be celebrated.

[drwally]

No need to apologize, and thank you. :) And I'd like to see Wolverine turn out to be gay to show that gays can be macho too, that someone is no less of a man just for loving another guy.

I think that character is called "Midnighter." But seriously, Midnighter seems to me to be a kind of combination of Wolverine, Batman, and by the way, he has a boyfriend too and its just there, no big deal (are they still together BTW)?

I like the Colussus character in Ultimate X-Men, but the Nightcrawler thing: that touched a lot of nerves. Fred and I have already hashed this out from different sides of the coin (in the true friendly spirit of the Forum), but Put another way in brief --basically, if you lived in an all white town, were told all your life black people were bad, and even if you wanted to think black people were OK, how would you know how to talk to the black person that just moved in next door? This is what happened to Nightcrawler, an all too common experience for straight people with regard to the gay thing. The problem is, the straights start feeling conflicted and guilty, and the gay people have had enough of all that conflict in themselves, and want to step back 5 paces, and run off with Northstar.

Personally, I think the "Oh we are all prefect, we accept the Gay Thing Perfectly in our Hero Universe" smacks of too much utopia. But, if a young gay teenager finds just a little solace in a book like Young Avengers, where they see more gay teen romance without the b.s. of High School homophobia and the only fight is the latest Super Bad Guy, I'm down with that too, that's what I needed in High School.

Finally, I am really down with everybody -- it comes down to the writing, it comes down to the character, it comes down to the situation. And I love the straight heros, and the white ones, and there sure does need to be many more Asian, Latino, Black and other that don't fit the stereotypes too. I think what is happening is that there are probably many more gay white guys now in the industry (boy there is a long list), so they now finally starting to be able to write what they want, and don't have to hide who they are anymore, and maybe even add in some diversity to the books.

(BIG DOSE -- WOULD LOVE to see that list of your characters!) I'll add mine: all the characters Jack Kirby created which were non white, but totally broke stereotypes--that's a long one!

I think the "gay to sell books" is totally not good, but does it really sell the many? How is Batwoman (girl, whatever) doing these days? It seems as though that was the ultimate in that, but maybe I'm wrong, and it was not well received. Lots of recycled "oh, she's hot, but you're not her type" gags. Whatever. It's 2007 -- MOVE on.

But NORTHSTAR (1980s, early 90s?): That was not to sell books, it was received as a very daring, bold and somewhat risky proposition when Byrne first did it. This is the one that makes this conversation (on this board, thanks Josh) possible.

As for old characters... The Beast Gay? Hardly. Quote me whatever issue, no, that guy is a total hetero, and everything else stinks of plot device. Sorry, not one of ours, love him, he's great, but he's total Het.

But Quicksilver? OK: Here it is -- I have had a "certain affinity" for that character since I was 8, and it is different than say BB or Namor (who are both total heteros). But Quicksilver? That guy....if he came out tomorrow, would anybody be surprised or shocked? How many writers besides David and Millar have to hint at this before Marvel like wakes up and smells the coffee? He is the TOTAL personification of the CLOSET queen, so such a *****. Northstar is basically Quicksilver, but the only way Byrne could do it then.

My take on him -- go back to the simple, green outfit Kirby did, or a simple version of Hitch's design (but too many hybrids of the two--yuck), strip away all the "House of M" and Inhumans and Epic this and Epic that and healing crystal this and healing crystal that baggage, and just make him a 40 year old guy in a simple situation who is now FINALLY coming out of the closet and pair him up with Northstar (who he hits on, but Northstar is like "dude, you're twice my age"), a guy who represents the younger generation who doesn't have an older gay guy's hang ups.

That's my pitch, I bet that would be both entertaining AND educational...

[drwally]

...and Quicksilver and Northstar would need a couple of kick ass women to keep them in line when the guys get into a b****ing match, maybe Wanda to threaten "Oh, a headache, I feel a psychosis coming on..." if it really gets bad, and of course two straight male characters (one older, one younger, I vote Hawkeye as one) who, when Northstar and Quicksilver go at it and the women intervene, just stand back with a "?" in a thought balloon...

[mikegraham6]

I'm a straight female and still find it detestable when gayness is used for shock value. Who the fuck cares? I don't care a character's orientation as long as he or she still kicks ass. Plenty of straight guys are pansies and plenty of gay guys are macho and can kick the shit out of a Hell's Angel. I know that for certain things, there's this guy-gets-girl in the end, basically adding sex. Personally I wouldn't care if it's guy-gets-guy, but I can see straight guys having a bit of a problem with this because they can't have their little sex fantasies.

You know, I'd like it if Wolverine turned out to be gay. If he has been outed, I missed it. And I'll go hide now before someone kicks my ass.

I agree. i think the whole gay thing plays out best when its shown as not being that big a deal, because in reality it isn't. It all love isn't it? Hating someone or something is a different thing altogether. I'm a straight male who is pretty liberal minded and im more shocked when i hear homophobic comments from someone i know than when i hear that someone's gay. Im just shocked that someone can feel that kind of hatred in this day and age.
In terms of comics, i always enjoyed the approach taken by the authority and by the young avengers. I liked how it wasn't overly mentioned but if you watched closely you could tell something was going on. it felt like a "easter egg" when it was revealed. I was reading thinking.. are they or aren't they and then when its revealed.. i'd say to myself "I KNEW IT!", it was a fun way to watch the character interactions.

Going back to the first post, if an older is revealed to be gay, it just seems cheap. It would be used for shock value, unless it fits in with the character and how they've been portrayed in the past (which it usually doesn't). New characters on the other hand, is no problem.
Although they dont seem to get the proper treatment they deserve. Marvel has been getting in trouble lately for their treatment of their gay characters-- http://www.prismcomics.org/display.php?id=1304
I think the idea for gay characters comes up more often but the companies just dont have the balls to go through with it. The Connor Hawke thing is a good example. They were probably setting him up to be gay and changed their minds at the last minute. The NBC show Heroes has done the same thing lately with Claire's sidekick.

One other thing. I agree with Fred when he says that comics should represent reality. If gays make up 5 to 10% of the population then comics should reflect that. But my question is, how many homosexuals read superhero comics. Obviously we have one:D , but i'd be interested to know if this percentage carries over to the comic reading audience (ie: 10% of comic readers are gay). I think most comic readers are hetero males and the editors are just giving them what they want: explosions and boobs.

Thats just my two cents (more like a buck and half;) )

[jo-relrollins]

Mike ur right no matter what it boils down to sales and readership. If a character works and ppl read it then fine. If they're scared that a book declines they retcon it. So for the most part, it has worked to become fluid even though there are still times when its shock value. You had a good point.

[drwally]

Although I actually completely agree you, Mike and JoeRel, about how you feel and deal with the subject, I would be very careful about "leaving it up to the readership" because that doesn't mean "the readership decides what they can handle" but Marvel sales and PR flaks & hacks start getting in the way of editors, writers and artists, and the PR hacks & flacks start making bogus decisions about "what the readership can handle," and those guys are stinky and are always way off the mark. If they were right, we would still be reading comics with 1950s social moral values but lots of bloody gore and violence against ethnic stereotypes. I think that is basically what's going on at Marvel, based on the link you posted, Mike.

[watsonglenn]

Mike ur right no matter what it boils down to sales and readership. If a character works and ppl read it then fine.

Would that be true of any sort of sexual activity?

[fred]

The comic companies shouldn't just do what 'people are comfortable with' and I'll tell you why. The reason is that so many superhero titles, at least on the teen side(SM,XM), deal with alienation. It's not right to allow the alienated teens who relate to the book to alienate another group because they're not comfortable.

[fred]

also, Wally on the Nightcrawler thing(which will end by the way when Conor logs in and writes but it's Ultimate Nightcrawler not 616 Nightcrawler) it's not that I can't see anyone reacting that way. Hell, throw a rock and hit 2 people that would. It's that I don't think Nightcrawler SHOULD.

[drwally]

also, Wally on the Nightcrawler thing(which will end by the way when Conor logs in and writes but it's Ultimate Nightcrawler not 616 Nightcrawler) it's not that I can't see anyone reacting that way. Hell, throw a rock and hit 2 people that would. It's that I don't think Nightcrawler SHOULD.

If characters always did what they SHOULD do then we would be back to the 1950s when right and wrong were "clearly defined," and superman would swoop in and save the day, give everyone a lecture, and all would be good...

Then there was a little title called "Fantastic Four #1" that came out by these two guys called Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, that made heroes more like the humans we are than the heros we wished we were...

And "616" was born...

[drwally]

Would that be true of any sort of sexual activity?

Trying to be as diplomatic as possible, Glen, try this: make a list of characters, male female pair, that have never been drawn in a sexually explict manner, but you clearly knew they had some sort of relationship beyond friendship. Now think about all the drawings you have seen (that would be disapproved of by many churchs) of male female activity in mainstream comics. Now make a list of same sex explicit sexual activity you have seen in comics, where one kiss causes a firestorm of controversy. I think this is where the demarkation point becomes clear as far as "tasteful" goes, and if anything is just too much TMI for shock value, Fred himself will be the first person to cry foul and mock it. Good comics are those that put the stress on emotional, human personality interaction, not those with physical "sex shock tactics" to sell books. And say what you want about Alias (preempting Fred here) but if that one notorious scene was all there was to that book, people would not love it so much.

"Any sexual activity" -- careful, you would not want anyone to accuse you of making a "man and man = man on dog" comment. The former Senator of PN has found out he is far out of step with people when he made that comment. Again, if there is the emotional content, as opposed to insulting crap just thrown out for "shock value," and Santorum's remark could be included as the latter, then people will say about human stories, "OK, I'm OK with that, I see these people as human, just like me."

I like Garrison Keillor's remark: "Sure you don't want to imagine two men in bed together, but I don't want to imagine my parents in bed together, that doesn't make it wrong."

[fred]

I love the internet reaction to Santorum's comments. His name has actually become slang for something even I won't link to.

[drwally]

I love the internet reaction to Santorum's comments. His name has actually become slang for something even I won't link to.

Santorum is the epitome of what this country is so tired of: divisive hate disguising itself as "moral and constructive discourse." I told a non comics friend about this site, and he said that he noticed that other websites are heading in the same direction as this one: enough of the juvenile flames, let's get some positive, constructive conversation going and bring people together -- (hopefully Glenn is still reading).

I used to go to political sites, but the political ones are as bad as many comic ones, on both Left and Right sides of the spectrum -- just flames and juvenile nonsense. Here I find I actually make connections outside the "political ghettos" I never would elsewhere. Fantastic.

And I'll be the first one to "boo" a comic character put forward as "The Gay Hero" -- I need more than that to make me interested. Little (a lot) of human depth and multifaceted personality also required. And the name "Freedom Ring" (have no idea who this is) just makes my eyes roll...

[fred]

I don't think I'd look for people to be 'The Gay Hero' but I do think mainstream comics should be a bit more proportionally representative

[drwally]

BTW, I voted "no" on the poll. I do care if they are "shut out" and all the characters are just no personality white guys, but if it's only "he's gay, that's the gimmick" I'm not interested.

I am assuming many voted the same way?

[fred]

and the politics thing, it has gotten really crazy. I've lost friends over politics in the past few years. I feel like I can't even talk about it anymore.

[drwally]

Fred, I love we are always disagreeing to agree, yet again... your point about comics reflecting diversity is right on. But today is far better than before, and I'm old enough to remember when it was much, much worse...

[fred]

BTW, I voted "no" on the poll. I do care if they are "shut out" and all the characters are just no personality white guys, but if it's only "he's gay, that's the gimmick" I'm not interested.

I am assuming many voted the same way?

I had a difficult time answering it and I actually commented on it above. I wanted to say 'yes I care' because I consider it a positive thing to have gay characters but in the phrasing it seemed like No was the right answer. As in 'no I won't be annoyed or stop buying a book'
the results to this point are encouraging

[fred]

Fred, I love we are always disagreeing to agree, yet again... your point about comics reflecting diversity is right on. But today is far better than before, and I'm old enough to remember when it was much, much worse...

what part do we really disagree on? Is it that I think there should be more?

[jaflanagan]

So basically, if the sexual orientation is organic to the character, most are good to go...at least on this board.

So what about Batwoman? I didn't like the hype around it, but so far the character as much as she's appeared is just another character who happens to be gay. They played it cheap a couple of times, sure, but overall, I wouldn't call it too bad.

If Rene comes back to get her own book as the Question, there can certainly be an interesting dynamic to her dating/not dating another superhero. Rene, by the way, is one of my favorite characters, and her sexuality is only one part of her complete character. That arc with her and Two-Face long ago was fantastic, and it was made all the better because she is who she is.

[drwally]

what part do we really disagree on? Is it that I think there should be more?

The joke is that we really don't ever disagree -- just seems that way. Chomsky joked about a conversation with Foucoult--"We had this long debate, disagreeing all the time, but all we were doing was climbing the same mountain, aiming for the same peak from different sides of the mountain; I'm not sure what people made of all that when it was televised (in Franch)...very odd."

You have to understand that when I was growing up in the 80s, Byrne, Cockrum and Claremont's "new" X-Men was about all there was in terms of diversity. Just before that was when all the black characters were just some version of blacksploitation films, and in retrospect, Kirby deserves major kudos for being way ahead of his time in turning out characters that were ethnically diverse and always went against stereotypes of the 60s and 70s -- and most (if not all) of those characters endure and are big favorites still. Given that record, there are some characters that make me go "ouch" in the way they play off some stereotype. Things are much better in that respect than they are now.

(Until Quicksilver --and Marvel's executive staff-- get over their old silly trepidations about what us sophisticated readers can handle, and just get on with it instead of avoiding the issue in yet another "epic" story diversion -- my watch says it's 2007, about time, would you not agree?)

[drwally]

So basically, if the sexual orientation is organic to the character, most are good to go...at least on this board.

So what about Batwoman? I didn't like the hype around it, but so far the character as much as she's appeared is just another character who happens to be gay. They played it cheap a couple of times, sure, but overall, I wouldn't call it too bad.

If Rene comes back to get her own book as the Question, there can certainly be an interesting dynamic to her dating/not dating another superhero. Rene, by the way, is one of my favorite characters, and her sexuality is only one part of her complete character. That arc with her and Two-Face long ago was fantastic, and it was made all the better because she is who she is.

Excellent points all, now if the "suits" at the big 2 comic companies could just get the message, readers, writers, and artists would be much relieved, let freedom ring.

[horatio616]

I don't mind a character being gay at all unless it goes against all previous interpretations of the character, therefore making it a "stunt". When Beast made that quip about being gay to Trish Trilby in Morrison's X-Men I groaned because it goes against, God help me, established continuity. Now, if it were a newer character, say Darkhawk, for instance, who hasn't been fleshed out for as much and for as long as Beast, that is fine. To sum up, Beast gay? No. Darkhawk gay? Yes.

[drwally]

I don't mind a character being gay at all unless it goes against all previous interpretations of the character, therefore making it a "stunt". When Beast made that quip about being gay to Trish Trilby in Morrison's X-Men I groaned because it goes against, God help me, established continuity. Now, if it were a newer character, say Darkhawk, for instance, who hasn't been fleshed out for as much and for as long as Beast, that is fine. To sum up, Beast gay? No. Darkhawk gay? Yes.

Totally agree. How about Quicksilver? Would that really stun you? If he came out and said "my life began doing something I didn't really believe in, and now, I am still living who I really am, and it makes me crazy..."

Would you be so surprised? Remember now, Quicksilver goes back to X-Men #4 v.1, (1964? 1965?) first appearence of Magneto, and didn't get a gal until Crystal and we all know how that went...

Well?

[horatio616]

Totally agree. How about Quicksilver? Would that really stun you? If he came out and said "my life began doing something I didn't really believe in, and now, I am still living who I really am, and it makes me crazy..."

Would you be so surprised? Remember now, Quicksilver goes back to X-Men #4 v.1, (1964? 1965?) first appearence of Magneto, and didn't get a gal until Crystal and we all know how that went...

Well?

Yeah, he's been around, but most of the stories he's been in haven't been about him. I haven't seen him dating a lot of girls either, unless you count sis. Beast's personal life has been well established too. While it wouldn't be shocking for a person who's had a long-term LTR or even several to come out (like the Beast), it's hard to do with these established characters without it looking like a stunt.

A character can have a long history in comics and still be "outed", unless it's been clearly established otherwise. I remember the beef about Rawhide kid. Been around awhile, but was his heterosexuality a clearly established part of his character? I've never read him.

[jaflanagan]

The good news about the Rawhide Kid is that it absolutely sucked, and I think they just tried to forget that it ever happened.

My god did that suck. The last Zimmerman thing I ever read.

[drwally]

I haven't seen him dating a lot of girls either, unless you count sis

...who married an android, and who went crazy with her own sexual issues, not much helped by a brother who is both "there" and "not there" for her, if you know what I mean...I think this is imminent (given the quotes dropped in other books left and right and all over the place), and would go far in explaining the 'tude that he walls himself up with to stay distant...It's like the old guy everyone knows "is," jokes about in the office, but denies it completely everychance he gets...an encounter with Northstar (younger generation, doesn't find it a big deal) vs. Quicksilver (carrying cultural guilt baggage of years past) would be a priceless story.


"Anatomy of a Closet Queen: Knows everyone, but maybe not himself...or at least not the parts he wants to deal with...."

[drwally]

The good news about the Rawhide Kid is that it absolutely sucked, and I think they just tried to forget that it ever happened.

My god did that suck. The last Zimmerman thing I ever read.

Whew. Josh again saving me some money. I hate it when either straights or gays just recyle old stereotypes for "camp" value that are just old hat. (Or old cowboy hat in this case). I get enough of this tired humor from gay friends, don't need it from comics...

But Quicksilver? My goodness -- good case of "an intervention" if there ever was one...

[drwally]

This basically sums it up, a song that completely sums up Quicksiler:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezBWBf36724
I dare anyone to watch this and say it doesn't totally fit...how many words could you substitute in this song and it would soooooo totally fit...

[fred]

The joke is that we really don't ever disagree -- just seems that way. Chomsky joked about a conversation with Foucoult--"We had this long debate, disagreeing all the time, but all we were doing was climbing the same mountain, aiming for the same peak from different sides of the mountain; I'm not sure what people made of all that when it was televised (in Franch)...very odd."

You have to understand that when I was growing up in the 80s, Byrne, Cockrum and Claremont's "new" X-Men was about all there was in terms of diversity. Just before that was when all the black characters were just some version of blacksploitation films, and in retrospect, Kirby deserves major kudos for being way ahead of his time in turning out characters that were ethnically diverse and always went against stereotypes of the 60s and 70s -- and most (if not all) of those characters endure and are big favorites still. Given that record, there are some characters that make me go "ouch" in the way they play off some stereotype. Things are much better in that respect than they are now.

(Until Quicksilver --and Marvel's executive staff-- get over their old silly trepidations about what us sophisticated readers can handle, and just get on with it instead of avoiding the issue in yet another "epic" story diversion -- my watch says it's 2007, about time, would you not agree?)

I agree to agree and Quiksilver's just European;)

[fred]

Excellent points all, now if the "suits" at the big 2 comic companies could just get the message, readers, writers, and artists would be much relieved, let freedom ring.

I'm not super-familiar with the Batwoman thing, was it a new one or had she been Batwoman already? I know there was a lot of talk about it and it seemed to feel 'promotiony' but I don't know enough of the story.

help a mofo out

[drwally]

I agree to agree and Quiksilver's just European;)

Just listen to this and then decide:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezBWBf36724

[fred]

I don't mind a character being gay at all unless it goes against all previous interpretations of the character, therefore making it a "stunt". When Beast made that quip about being gay to Trish Trilby in Morrison's X-Men I groaned because it goes against, God help me, established continuity. Now, if it were a newer character, say Darkhawk, for instance, who hasn't been fleshed out for as much and for as long as Beast, that is fine. To sum up, Beast gay? No. Darkhawk gay? Yes.

the coolest thing about that though was that McCoy was doing it for troubled gay kids that needed a role model. That's totally in keeping with his 'in continuity' persona and also really effin cool

[fred]

Whew. Josh again saving me some money. I hate it when either straights or gays just recyle old stereotypes for "camp" value that are just old hat. (Or old cowboy hat in this case). I get enough of this tired humor from gay friends, don't need it from comics...

But Quicksilver? My goodness -- good case of "an intervention" if there ever was one...

The Rawhide Kid thing seemed to be a conceptual disaster top to bottom(he he). I think now that they've declared it canon/not canon 14 different times doesn't help.

[fred]

Just listen to this and then decide:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezBWBf36724

I was just picking on you. I had the feeling on my own about him before we ever started talking about it a few weeks ago.

[iSteve]

I'm not super-familiar with the Batwoman thing, was it a new one or had she been Batwoman already? I know there was a lot of talk about it and it seemed to feel 'promotiony' but I don't know enough of the story.

help a mofo out

She is Katherine "Kate" Kane, a wealthy socialite and former lover of Rene Montoya. Introduced in 52. See Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batwoman) for more info.

http://photos.freenewmexican.com/2006/05/31/33343_375x375.jpg

[paper]

Doesn't look very happy to be Batwoman...

[iSteve]

Doesn't look very happy to be Batwoman...

Not a very good picture. Normally, she's a very "hot" character.

[drwally]

I was just picking on you. I had the feeling on my own about him before we ever started talking about it a few weeks ago.

EVERYONE has that feeling, and I've been carrying it around since I was eight (20 something when I was old enough to realize the vibe). THAT's the joke -- the invisible elephant in the room.

But, my last word is this, dedicated to Pietro, after about 30 years watching this guy--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezBWBf36724

[iSteve]

A better pic...

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/52/Batwoman/batwoman_t.jpg

[fred]

she is hot.

so, if she was with montoya and new to Batwoman, I guess it makes sense

and thanks for the assist on the info

[mikegraham6]

i just gotta say how awesome this board/community is, and have to give everyone some kudos. a topic like this could have gotten ugly on some other sites, but here it turns into a real intelligent discussion. Even if someone has an opinon that doesn't follow the trend of the thread, noone jumps on them for it (watsonglenn-- feel free to state your opinion, just in a non hateful manner, its cool, debate is the spice of life!)

Back to the topic: Batwoman felt exactlly like the trappings of "sexual orientation for shock value thing". all the stupid double entendres where juvenile and even though its nice to have another lebian hero (and such a high profile one) the fact that she was gay overshadowed her value as a character. what do we know about her? shes gay, thats it! and that is what wrong with her, it would have been better reveal later down the line.

Rene Montoya is the best example ive seen of a gay character in comics. we didnt know at first and the story where it was revealed was amazing! great storytelling. her character isn't about her being gay, its superfluous to everything else, shes a strong character who just happens to be gay. this is where it works best, when its not presented a big deal

[drwally]

I don't know if anyone has seen this, but it's just about the best list I could find--comprehensive, with good backstory info on when and where:

http://www.gayleague.com/gay/characters/

I like that they are comprehensive, include all the categories, and back up their info with issue title and issue number, rather than rumor and innuendo. The number took me aback, but it is well researched....

[drwally]

Rene Montoya is the best example ive seen of a gay character in comics. we didnt know at first and the story where it was revealed was amazing! great storytelling. her character isn't about her being gay, its superfluous to everything else, shes a strong character who just happens to be gay. this is where it works best, when its not presented a big deal

I'm with Mike on all points here, and this last point is the best. I think I'll be buying Gotham Central before Batwoman, making the poll here not really reflecting the depth and nuances of discussion here...but to be fair no poll can boil down such an issue, hence the complexities of the issue...

[mikegraham6]

I don't know if anyone has seen this, but it's just about the best list I could find--comprehensive, with good backstory info on when and where:

http://www.gayleague.com/gay/characters/

I like that they are comprehensive, include all the categories, and back up their info with issue title and issue number, rather than rumor and innuendo. The number took me aback, but it is well researched....

looking at that list and im thinking, who the **** are these characters? it goes to show that the companies dont really care to explore the issue to deeply because they just create a random character for an issue or two to touch on the issue and just leave it there. i can probably count on one hand the number of "known" characters who are on that list (excluding the bi-sexual one, which i must mention was really interesting.. the black cat is bi, thats hot ;) )

[fred]

had the same reaction

[labor_days]

Realistically, aren't most superhero love interests just plot devices anyway? Thinking of say Green Goblin tossing Mary Jane off the Empire State building. That sort of thing.

Hard to come up with a classic big 2 superhero book that deals with relationships in depth between alien invasions and Mole Man conquests. Hmm...

[luthor]

Realistically, aren't most superhero love interests just plot devices anyway? Thinking of say Green Goblin tossing Mary Jane off the Empire State building. That sort of thing.

Hard to come up with a classic big 2 superhero book that deals with relationships in depth between alien invasions and Mole Man conquests. Hmm...

See Peter David's run on the Hulk.

[ariastar]

i just gotta say how awesome this board/community is, and have to give everyone some kudos. a topic like this could have gotten ugly on some other sites, but here it turns into a real intelligent discussion.

Well, in some parts of the forum, people would be making cracks. But each section here attracts different people.

[labor_days]

See Peter David's run on the Hulk.
Really? People keep telling me Peter David's Hulk is worth looking into. What trades would you suggest? Don't read the Hulk regularly.

[luthor]

I don't know that a lot of his run is available in trades. If you really want the relationshippy stuff check out from about 380 on.

[labor_days]

No good trades collecting any of David's run? I'll see what I can dig up. Thanks.

[fred]

I know that there is a Hulk Visionaries Peter David series of trades but I don't know what they cover

[xyzzy]

I know that there is a Hulk Visionaries Peter David series of trades but I don't know what they cover

From www.tplist.com

Hulk: Peter David 1 (331-339; w Peter David; a Todd McFarlane).

Hulk: Peter David 2 (340-348; w Peter David; a Todd McFarlane, Erik Larsen, Jeff Purves).

Hulk: Peter David 3 (349-354, Web of Spider-Man 44, Fantastic Four 320; w Peter David, Steve Englehart; a Jeff Purves, Alex Saviuk, Keith Pollard).

[drwally]

WHAT??? The HULK is GAY??? I had no IDEA...

(Kidding!)

Actually, Peter David's X-Factor is good for relationships -- I call it my "soap opera book." As I suspected, one of Jamie's Dupes is a little "queer" (arn't they all? -->punning here, reclaim the language) which Jamie denies, with the dupe saying to Jamie, "in denial, much?"

[watsonglenn]

Santorum is the epitome of what this country is so tired of: divisive hate disguising itself as "moral and constructive discourse." I told a non comics friend about this site, and he said that he noticed that other websites are heading in the same direction as this one: enough of the juvenile flames, let's get some positive, constructive conversation going and bring people together -- (hopefully Glenn is still reading).

Yes still reading. I did not want to break up this mutual admiration society but come on now, lets not break any arms patting each other on the back just yet.

You all agree on this topic so of course you are civil. Its all hail fellow and well met, but throw in a reasonable yet dissenting view on gay characters and I guarantee the flaming would begin.

We saw it in the Bit torrent thread that was shut down. Most peopel cannot handle disagreement on moral issues. If the other person disagrees then he must be bad and he MUST be told how bad he is.

Its fine when everyone agrees, but people don't like to be challenged on moral issues and that includes liberals and conservatives.

[watsonglenn]

I would like to say that to me the idea that any character, especially ones who have trouble relating to females, is a candidate for gay status is disturbing. By that definition every male hero is a potential homosexual.

Nowadays, any male character that shows the slightest sensitivity has a target on his head. Element Lad is the perfect example? "He must be gay right? Look how sensitive he is."

To me Pietro is not more likely to be gay just because his marriage did not work out and he is somewhat prissy. That's ridiculous and its an example of projecting and stereotyping.

The Rawhide Kind being gay was just sick in so many ways. It reminded me of those Batman and Robin jokes idiots make.

To me, Beast pretending to be gay was simply ridiculous and somewhat insulting to real gays. If I was a young gay mutant I would request he not do me that magnanimous favor.

And why are there no gay villains? I almost said Sinestro, but that would be me being stereotypical. Just because some writer things he look sliek Errel Flynn, flies in an effiminant way and has a weird mustache does not make him more likely to be gay.

And please spare me writers who say, after the fact, that this or that character was "supposed to be gay." They are not gay, straight or anything else unless it happens in a comic book! What you were going to do does not count even, if your name is Stan Lee or Jack Kirby.

[masherscf]

i just gotta say how awesome this board/community is, and have to give everyone some kudos. a topic like this could have gotten ugly on some other sites, but here it turns into a real intelligent discussion.

This isn't an accident. When Revision 3 forums where relaunched there was a lot of bickering about the appointment of the moderation team. Mostly because long time forum members felt excluded.

However, these guys were not chosen at random. They had experience with the iron fist in a velvet glove to help more abusive members find their better angels.

All accept Sammy, he sucks ass. ;)

[k-dizzle]

This isn't an accident. When Revision 3 forums where relaunched there was a lot of bickering about the appointment of the moderation team. Mostly because long time forum members felt excluded.

However, these guys were not chosen at random. They had experience with the iron fist in a velvet glove to help more abusive members find their better angels.

All accept Sammy, he sucks ass. ;) And most if not all of the people active on the ifanboy.com came over, and they are people who like to talk about comic books more than call people names and insult others online.

[jaflanagan]

And most if not all of the people active on the ifanboy.com came over, and they are people who like to talk about comic books more than call people names and insult others online.

I can't speak for the rest of the Rev3 forums, but I'd credit the iFanboy community with that. There are flare ups every now and then, but not too often. As far as Rev3 goes, it's hard to say, because this forum is basically moderated by Conor and myself.

[k-dizzle]

To be fair the 'flare ups' come from me. Is the 'basically moderated by Conor and myself' comment another stab at how lazy ron is? Damnit why wont you people just let him be?

[fred]

I can't speak for the rest of the Rev3 forums, but I'd credit the iFanboy community with that. There are flare ups every now and then, but not too often. As far as Rev3 goes, it's hard to say, because this forum is basically moderated by Conor and myself.

it really is special, the community here. I've been to many other boards and it's all childish bullshit. The flare-ups thing - in maybe 9 months that I've been around iFanboy I've seen maybe 3 threads closed for anything other than spoiling books on Wednesday(main site)

[watsonglenn]

in maybe 9 months that I've been around iFanboy I've seen maybe 3 threads closed for anything other than spoiling books on Wednesday(main site)


I've seen two shut down in the last week.

[fred]

other than ones combined or shut down for redundant content, I see one. That was was the BitTorrent thread which I think everyone would agree had gone too far.

[watsonglenn]

other than ones combined or shut down for redundant content, I see one. That was was the BitTorrent thread which I think everyone would agree had gone too far.


I have seen two. One about the Heroes show and one when a guy got excited on the Bit Torrent thread which I cold see coming from the first day of the thread.

In any case its no big deal. And the reason are none of my business. Maybe this was a busy week. I've only been here for two or three weeks so I don't know how it usually is. But the truth is it was two threads shut down not one.

Is that non sequitur enough for you Fred?

[paper]

The Heroes thread was shut down because it was redundant; there was already one running each week on the ifanboy main site. As Conor explained when he closed it. Nothing controversial.

[fred]

exactly but he is being held down by 'the man'

[jaflanagan]

It's true. We have a regular Heroes thread on iFanboy, and have since the show started. If Conor killed a thread here, it was because it was redundant. As far as I know, the only time on here that we've done that was the Bit Torrent thread, which has long since ceased to be productive, like you said.

Other than that, we'll try to nudge things in a useful direction before we kill something. it's totally not something we want to make a habit of. For example, this thread isn't much about what it started out as.

[jgg0610]

I'm on here pretty much everyday and I've rarely seen a situation where you guys have to nudge things back in a certain direction. Most of the time, it seems more that the users are monitoring themselves, if you will. It seems to be working fine and is a tribute to the tone that the three of you have set with the site. Thanks.:)

[mastap]

I'm on here pretty much everyday and I've rarely seen a situation where you guys have to nudge things back in a certain direction. Most of the time, it seems more that the users are monitoring themselves, if you will. It seems to be working fine and is a tribute to the tone that the three of you have set with the site. Thanks.:)

Back on topic? Not really tangents are common. But keep it civilized? This place almost always keeps a friendly air. Really the only forum I'm on.

[k-dizzle]

Get a room fellas, see back on topic just like that.

[watsonglenn]

The Heroes thread was shut down because it was redundant; there was already one running each week on the ifanboy main site. As Conor explained when he closed it. Nothing controversial.


Thats true.

[watsonglenn]

Please! You said 1 I said 2. I'm right. You're wrong. I happens.

Now then about gay characters....

[fred]

Please! You said 1 I said 2. I'm right. You're wrong. I happens.

honestly, you're not even worth my time but in the name of accuracy i said

'other than ones combined or shut down for redundant content, I see one'

the heroes thread was shut down because it was redundant

you're wrong. stop whining

amd now, I'm officially done with this retarded shit

[watsonglenn]

honestly, you're not even worth my time but in the name of accuracy i said 'other than ones combined or shut down for redundant content, I see one' the heroes thread was shut down because it was redundant you're wrong. stop whining amd now, I'm officially done with this retarded shit

I never know how to respond to posts like that. He is done with the conversation I'm not worth responding to. Its retarded. But he wants the last shot. Ok. But I think my point is made about people getting angry.

[fred]

I'm now ignoring everything you post from now on. I've decided that I don't need to get the 'idiotic' side of the argument anymore.

I'm not angry because of your position on gay characters, which is dumb, I'm angry because you're a childish, whiny blowhard that sits around complaining about how you're so oppressed because people get annoyed with you when you compare yourself to jesus because you steal.

And by the way, you're still wrong

[mikegraham6]

well now i think we are going to have 2 threads that are closed due to content:D

[watsonglenn]

well now i think we are going to have 2 threads that are closed due to content:D

Told ya, And I did not even have to give the other side. Just inferring that one exists was enough.

[drwally]

I agree with Fred. Fred and I have had our disgreements before, but we have worked them out through discussion, and a good humor that comes from mutual respect, not spite and petty insults. Comments of mine have been cut off and deleted by the moderator, and I have emailed the moderators saying I completely respect their moderation, understand why those comments were moderated, and have faith they will do what is right as they always have.

Both K-Dizzle and I have poked fun at Fred's posting habits, and Fred has demonstrated self effacing good humor about that, as has K-Dizzle, and I attempted the same myself. That I am still typing and that you can read this is evidence that it has been passed by the moderator, and we all respect the moderators (some of us do, at any rate).

However, what I find difficult to tolerate is the following:

1) Somebody who insults a particular individual of this community with a snide comment, and their apparent inability to see that all those "non sequiters " were connected enough to not warrant such a snotty flame.

2) Somebody who insults the entire community, after being invited by many in the community to comment; using the invitation to insinuate we are all one big cosy club, and will kick out or "flame" somebody who we disagree with based on...I'm not sure what, the rehash of what was written by others and the insults was just a big (whatever). Note--the rules of the forum. The moderators make the call as to who crosses the line. And somebody is pretty darn close to crossing it.

3) Somebody who insults the moderator. The moderator has weighed in on the "two threads issue," and if someone persists on hijacking this thread with more (whatever), then yes, you are getting pretty close to crossing that line.

I don't know why the bittorrent thread was closed down, as I was looking forward to commenting on it. But I am now getting the impression that it was not a "what" but a "who" that caused that thread to be closed down.

And furthermore? I'm with Fred. Consider yourself ignored (and you know who you are) until you can modify your behavior to meet the civil standards quite a few people have attained, one I am very far from reaching myself, but struggle to reach all the time.

I was going to write a more diplomatic reply than Fred to a particular post, but I think Fred's is the best approach. Just ignore.

Now then, did somebody say something about a hero wearing gay threads?

[fred]

thanks wally

[iSteve]

How do feel about the way Marvel handled the relationship of Wiccan and Hulkling in the Young Avengers? Sensational or appropriate in depicting a gay relationship?

[fred]

I've yet to read it except in the mini. I can say though that I have some apprehension over the fact that 2 of their highest profile gay characters are on the same team. It, (and I haven't read it - this is just gut feeling), smacks of ghettoization.

[drwally]

thanks wally

Hey Fred, no matter what the diagreement, I will always have your back. An insult like that to you I felt like an insult to me, or anyone for that matter, and that was before I read your response. But let the ignoring commence as far as the latest stink bomb goes.

I actually would like to hear more about Young Avengers, iSteve, and from you and others. I haven't read this book--what do you think? The real test is this (in my opinion): do you feel like these characters are actually people you know and respect and think "OK, I get that, that seems human," or cardboard cut outs that just left you like, "Oh that's just a gimmick?"

Or, put it this way, if either Hulkling or Wiccan broke up or one lost the other, would you feel the loss the same way you would feel if it were a male female relationship? I have to be "off to bed," now (work tomorrow) but after my last comment, I think I have cleared the decks for other people to begin weighing in with their own opinions in the way they were before. In 24 hours, I look forward to seeing where this thread goes....

Comment away!

[iSteve]

Hey Fred, no matter what the diagreement, I will always have your back. An insult like that to you I felt like an insult to me, or anyone for that matter, and that was before I read your response. But let the ignoring commence as far as the latest stink bomb goes.

I actually would like to hear more about Young Avengers, iSteve, and from you and others. I haven't read this book--what do you think? The real test is this (in my opinion): do you feel like these characters are actually people you know and respect and think "OK, I get that, that seems human," or cardboard cut outs that just left you like, "Oh that's just a gimmick?"

Or, put it this way, if either Hulkling or Wiccan broke up or one lost the other, would you feel the loss the same way you would feel if it were a male female relationship? I have to be "off to bed," now (work tomorrow) but after my last comment, I think I have cleared the decks for other people to begin weighing in with their own opinions in the way they were before. In 24 hours, I look forward to seeing where this thread goes....

Comment away!

Wally, I like your point about whether you would feel the same about a gay relationship depicted in a book the same as you would a hetero. Using that as a guideline, I would have to say that the relationship between Wiccan and Hulkling, while done with sensitivity and dignity, would still have to be considered more of a gimmick. It's not essential to the story. Now that's my take. I'm sure there are others who feel differently. I liked the series and thought this relationship added a dimension to the title that was interesting - just not deep, however.

[fred]

does the presence of the two of them make it feel like the 'gay title'? that's my worry. It wouldn't be a concern to me if there were huge high profile characters sprinkled throughout the U, but since things are as they are....

[watsonglenn]

[QUOTE=DrWally;71374]I agree with Fred. Fred and I have had our disgreements before, but we have worked them out through discussion, and a good humor that comes from mutual respect, not spite and petty insults. >>>

Please show me where I insulted Fred or any poster. I will apoligise immediately.

2) Note--the rules of the forum. The moderators make the call as to who crosses the line. And somebody is pretty darn close to crossing it.

The mods are in charge, no argument. It will be interested to see who crossed the line in their opinion. The guy who resorted ot name calling or the guy that was insulted.

3) Somebody who insults the moderator. The moderator has weighed in on the "two threads issue," and if someone persists on hijacking this thread with more (whatever), then yes, you are getting pretty close to crossing that line.

I never insulted a mod. I said two thread were closed. Two thread were closed. If any one feels insulted by that I'm sorry. This is ridiculous.

I don't know why the bittorrent thread was closed down, a>>>

One of the posters began name calling so it was shut down. It was not me.

And furthermore? I'm with Fred. Consider yourself ignored>>

Ok, and you are doing a hell of a good job of ignoring me.

until you can modify your behavior to meet the civil standards quite a few people have attained, one I am very far from reaching myself, but struggle to reach all the time.>>

That's sweet.

I was going to write a more diplomatic reply than Fred to a particular post, but I think Fred's is the best approach. Just ignore. >>

Again, great job with the ignoring. Fred has ignored me twice already in posts telling me I was being ignored so you have some catching up to do.

Now lets get back to the topic or not but don't pretend I hijacked any thread. I'll take a certain amount of abuse but I will respond on occasion.

[iSteve]

does the presence of the two of them make it feel like the 'gay title'? that's my worry. It wouldn't be a concern to me if there were huge high profile characters sprinkled throughout the U, but since things are as they are....

No, I would definitely not classify YA as a "gay" title. Their relationship is just one small part of the team identity. It doesn't define the whole team. But the team's acceptance of the relationship does define who the team is. Using Wally's term, they "have each other's backs."

[fred]

No, I would definitely not classify YA as a "gay" title. Their relationship is just one small part of the team identity. It doesn't define the whole team. But the team's acceptance of the relationship does define who the team is. Using Wally's term, they "have each other's backs."

that's good. I'm glad it works. I've been meaning to read it. Just haven't gotten there yet. I had worried about it because of the reasons I said above. I just wouldn't want a company to be like OK here's the gay book. Does that make sense?

[paper]

Sounds really interesting. I'm gonna give YA a shot.

[jaflanagan]

Did anyone read Kirkman's Marvel team up and the ill fated gay hero, Freedom Ring?

I thought it was handled well, but Kirkman got a lot of grief for having him A) suck as a superhero, and B) Get the living tar smacked out of him as a result of A.

And there was this bit of message boardery (http://www.imagecomics.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?p=332806&sid=7de0142f9965acbc621c42d43bdef520) on the subject.

[fred]

I heard about it but I didn't read it because I'm not really into Team-Up style books. I like longer, involved stories. I do remember hearing people say that it was cool that he created a new gay hero and then people being upset because he was killed shortly thereafter. I think I've got that right?

[jaflanagan]

Pretty much. The story arcs on that book were a few issues long. I didn't start reading it until right at the end, so I'm not sure what it was like earlier. It was a fun book thought.

[fred]

I didn't realize they actually did arcs. I may've liked it more than I thought I would then. I like payoff. I like running threads. I've been enjoying Dini's Detective but it's starting to feel kind of unsatisfying to me because nothing is inter-related.

[jimski]

The newest Marvel Team-Up was sort of an odd duck; it tried to have one long, overarching story that just happened to affect different heroes' lives in unrelated ways. It was like a goofball version of Babel.

I liked it well enough, and I was pleased to see Kirkman create a new character instead of going back to the well and rehashing an old one like you see so often in mainstream books. (Is it because they don't want to sell off their good ideas to someone else's company?) That made it all the more jarring when he killed him off just as he was going somewhere. I felt like I'd been invited to a party just so everyone there could flip me off. They did the same thing in "Beyond!"

As for his sexuality, I liked how it was handled. I sort of went, "Wait, is he...? Well, yeah, I guess he is. How 'bout that!" Basically, if you replaced the guy he asked out in the story with a girl, it would have been completely in line with something you'd find in a comic from 20 years ago. Simple; chaste; didn't draw attention to itself. Radically, it just treated it as normal.

[fred]

I'm giving serious thought to going back and reading this book

sounds cool

[jimski]

Something tells me a lot of people on this site would've liked the "League of Losers" arc featuring, like, Darkhawk and Arana and Gravity.

[k-dizzle]

Is this book collected in a trade yet? I think I'll look for it.

[mikegraham6]

i haven't read any marvel team up, but since its kirkman, it has me intrigued. I heard about the freedom ring thing, and apparently it really upset people. not the fact that he was gay but the fact that he was pretty much destroyed as a charcter.
I think the whole young avengers gay character thing is kinda superfluous. it doesn't really discuss it. i dont know if thats because marvel doesn't think the readers can handle an open and frank discussion on the subject or because its a generic superhero title that just doesn't have time to devote to the subject (thats valuable supervillain ass kicking time!)
i honestly think the reason they were added in the book is because Alan Heinberg is gay and he just wanted some representation, not to really tackle any issues about sexuality... but who knows, there have only been 12 issues right?

[watsonglenn]

Something tells me a lot of people on this site would've liked the "League of Losers" arc featuring, like, Darkhawk and Arana and Gravity.


I loved that comic. I love any alternate universe what if type comic.

[jaflanagan]

Was it alternate universe? I think it was in continuity.

Because the alternate universe Tony Stark got into this universe and was set loose in MTU.

On Amazon, it appears that there are 3 volumes of this out in trades, featuring the work of Scott Kolins and Cory Walker on pencils.

And now I kinda wanna go back and read the issues I didn't.

[watsonglenn]

Was it alternate universe? I think it was in continuity.

Because the alternate universe Tony Stark got into this universe and was set loose in MTU.



The League of losers universe diverged off did'nt it. At least I think it did. But that was not where the Evil Tony came from was it?

[jimski]

The answers to your questions... are complicated.

Are you all aware that one of the issues-- #14, I think-- was a team-up between Spidey and Invincible? Pencilled by Invincible's original penciller?

You're all gonna buy it now. Kirkman owes me money.

[mikegraham6]

The answers to your questions... are complicated.

Are you all aware that one of the issues-- #14, I think-- was a team-up between Spidey and Invincible? Pencilled by Invincible's original penciller?

You're all gonna buy it now. Kirkman owes me money.

whats the kirkman tally up to for the iFanboy crew again? 2500.00$????
that guys owes them some green....

[k-dizzle]

whats the kirkman tally up to for the iFanboy crew again? 2500.00$????
that guys owes them some green.... Hes such a cool guy they might see 10% of it.

[drwally]

Did anyone read Kirkman's Marvel team up and the ill fated gay hero, Freedom Ring?

I thought it was handled well, but Kirkman got a lot of grief for having him A) suck as a superhero, and B) Get the living tar smacked out of him as a result of A.

And there was this bit of message boardery (http://www.imagecomics.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?p=332806&sid=7de0142f9965acbc621c42d43bdef520) on the subject.

I found it absolutely facinating how that particular thread played out:

1) Somebody made a thoughtful critique of Kirkman's choices as a writer
2) Kirman responded basically making Fred's point:
Robert Kirkman:
"Frankly, with the SMALL amount of gay characters in comics in general, and how unfortunate the portrayals have been thus far, whether intentional or not--I completely understand the backlash on the death of Freedom Ring, regardless of my intensions. If I had it to do all over again... I wouldn't kill him. I regret it more and more as time goes on. I got rid of what? 20% of the gay characters at Marvel by killing off this ONE characters. I just never took that stuff into consideration while I was writing. I think you and anyone else who complained had every right to be angry. I just want you to understand that none of this was done with ill intent and it's all just an unfortunate string of events."

Gayleague, who raised questions about the Freedom Ring story arc, gives creators ample space to respond in full and be clear about their intent and opinions on their site, and those identifying themselves as the most vocal critics apologised and promised to follow up their initial critiques with posts praising Kirman for responding with open honesty and much considerate thought.

Many people then posted comments right after Kirkman and made angry, over generalized, cranky remarks about how gay people (and fat people, blacks, latinos, and other non white male person of non perfect build whatever) that raise questions are just cranky bastards that want more than they should get, so "don't be so 'gay' and just "STFU." Some also criticized both the gay people posting and Kirkman for reaching an amicable understanding.

And apparently show no evidence they have actually read Kirkman's own thoughtful response, perhaps thinking they are doing him a favour.

People have noticed that the list I posted contains many unknown and "5th Tier" characters. Those are the ones that are usually the "cannon fodder" as much as any other character relegated to "we don't care, do whatever" status. If older characters are taken off the table, then as the Young Avengers get older and if they don't get cancelled, the comics world should reach parity in about...2014?

Then a writer like Kirkman (7 years older) will feel like he can write on the subject freely without being caught between readers he recognises as habitually badly treated by the industry getting irked, and those who just want those gay people to STFU.

It's only been 14 years since distributors and stores asked Todd MacFarlane if Spawn #10 (top best seller of 1993) was returnable because he donated the inside back cover to a gay comics group. The editor of Wizard at the time issued a press release about this issue at the time, condemning "sexual deviance" (in 1993).

14 Years: Such progress in the comics industry, in such short a time... Kirkman's head must be spinning....

[fred]

2) Kirman responded basically making Fred's point:

what can I say? Great minds think alike

[masherscf]

what can I say? Great minds think alike

Cannot the same be said for lesser minds?

[mikegraham6]

It's only been 14 years since distributors and stores asked Todd MacFarlane if Spawn #10 (top best seller of 1993) was returnable because he donated the inside back cover to a gay comics group. The editor of Wizard at the time issued a press release about this issue at the time, condemning "sexual deviance" (in 1993).

14 Years: Such progress in the comics industry, in such short a time... Kirkman's head must be spinning....

that blows my mind that wizard's editor said that, but i guess your right when you said that progress has been made in 14 yrs. its just hard to believe, 93 wasn't that long ago....

[fred]

Cannot the same be said for lesser minds?

I don't know. Have you agreed with anyone lately?:rolleyes:

[drwally]

Cannot the same be said for lesser minds?

When they publish a picture of Midnighter in bed with Apollo that is as graphic as Steve Rogers in bed with Sharon Carter from the Brubaker run on Captain America, then I think we'll soon see the answer to your question...

But since the Authority rages in battles that destroy multiple cities and kills millions in spasms of super violence, but becomes tremendously controversial for not even going past first base with Apollo and Midnighter, it may be a while before we can test that theory on this topic...

[masherscf]

When they publish a picture of Midnighter in bed with Apollo that is as graphic as Steve Rogers in bed with Sharon Carter from the Brubaker run on Captain America, then I think we'll soon see the answer to your question...

But since the Authority rages in battles that destroy multiple cities and kills millions in spasms of super violence, but becomes tremendously controversial for not even going past first base with Apollo and Midnighter, it may be a while before we can test that theory on this topic...

You, sir, are a prince among geeks...

[drwally]

that blows my mind that wizard's editor said that, but i guess your right when you said that progress has been made in 14 yrs. its just hard to believe, 93 wasn't that long ago....

I think this is really a matter of perspective. I think the younger members see this issue as very new and "vogue" and everthing is happening so fast, but to an older member like me, sometimes it sounds like a discussion I heard on Donahue in 1980 something... but that's all personal perspective, where you are and what that allows you to see, for which I fault nobody.

In fact, this whole thread is about perspective: where you are in the scheme of things, and how the Kirkman thing errupted -- the people at Gay League and the people they represent have been around long enough to say, "I think the quota of white heterosexual men and women with perfect bodies was reached at about 1941 in comics; can we have a few more issues of the bone you droppped us before you kill him please?"

But to another reader, that view is just not in their radar, especially given this issue where silence and secrecy are such dominant aspects, and goodness knows comics have nothing to do with keeping secrets, so shush! don't tell anyone that (enter name here) is....

that just might be too SENSATIONAL (or just a big bore, depending on who you are)

[mikegraham6]

But to another reader, that view is just not in their radar, especially given this issue where silence and secrecy are such dominant aspects, and goodness knows comics have nothing to do with keeping secrets, so shush! don't tell anyone that (enter name here) is....


your talking about quicksilver again aren't you ;)

[drwally]

You, sir, are a prince among geeks...

Hey, I was REALLY disappointed! After reading what a SENSATION that Apollo and Midnighter kiss caused, I was like "Oh man, gotta see some of that action.." and when I saw the supposedly controversial picture, I was like..

THAT'S IT??? THAT'S IT??? THAT'S THE CONTROVERSIAL KISS??? THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE SO WORKED UP ABOUT??!!

(Total disappointment after all it was worked up to be...)

That kiss between Apollo and Midnighter, if male/female, could have passed the censor's desk in 1920!

Saying they were milking "sensationalism" is like saying they were milking the cow from the county next door: strictly "hands off"...no wonder Jimski had no idea two members of the Young Avengers were gay... you have to hint at it so hard, or else it might become...

a SENSATION!

(No I haven't read YA, promotional art makes it seem targeted for a younger audience, and that ain't me)

[ekval]

It's only been 14 years since distributors and stores asked Todd MacFarlane if Spawn #10 (top best seller of 1993) was returnable because he donated the inside back cover to a gay comics group. The editor of Wizard at the time issued a press release about this issue at the time, condemning "sexual deviance" (in 1993).



Wizard being any sort of sexual morality police is at least moderately amusing...

[fred]

your talking about quicksilver again aren't you ;)

it's all about the quicksilver with wally;)

[drwally]

your talking about quicksilver again aren't you ;)

Actually, that time, no... (but hey, if the running shoe fits...)

I think the superhero genre actually attracts many gay readers for the same reason it attracts straight readers, but I think the idea of a "mask" or "secret identity" ... that appeals to gay people, they can relate. They lived it for real, so know when they see it in the comics pages. Being bilingual, that makes about 4 separate identities for me, and I am not kidding (really, I'm not).

And characters like say Peter Parker (straight but nerdy) or Wonder Woman (strong woman) are always popular because they show how people stereotyped as "weak" (science nerds, geeks, women) are actually kick ass great, smart people and appeal on a fundamental human level.

The debut of Wonder Woman was like nothing that came before, and smashed down barriers, likewise Peter Parker. SO many gay readers are like, "What's the hold up? Is what happened in 1941 and 1964 so difficult to pull off now?"

[drwally]

it's all about the quicksilver with wally;)

For some reason "Shatterstar" does not have the same appeal, and every other character I think of is obviously straight...unless I am missing something...

But maybe you're right. Maybe I should just move to the moon, move in with the Inhumans, give up my stance as the perpetually alienated and easily offended outsider that is completely asexual, get married, have a baby, share in Reed Richard's delightful surprise that depite me and the marriage, the child turned out "normal"...

Ring the Bells, Ring the Bells, Now I Can be Happy...

(Wait, is that how the story ended up?)

Oh, and Northstar and Quicksilver? All those amazing similarities? Pay no attention, I'm sure it was just...what? Did Byrne and Marvel try and bait and swith me?

Y'think? Nawwwww....couldn't be.....

"I've been to Attilan,
but I've never been to me..."

[fred]

For some reason "Shatterstar" does not have the same appeal, and every other character I think of is obviously straight...unless I am missing something...

But maybe you're right. Maybe I should just move to the moon, move in with the Inhumans, give up my stance as the perpetually alienated and easily offended outsider that is completely asexual, get married, have a baby, share in Reed Richard's delightful surprise that depite me and the marriage, the child turned out "normal"...

Ring the Bells, Ring the Bells, Now I Can be Happy...

(Wait, is that how the story ended up?)

Oh, and Northstar and Quicksilver? All those amazing similarities? Pay no attention, I'm sure it was just...what? Did Byrne and Marvel try and bait and swith me?

Y'think? Nawwwww....couldn't be.....

"I've been to Attilan,
but I've never been to me..."

I'm just poking at you. I'm right there with you on Quicksilver

[cam-]

I voted yes here,

though it was a thinker. I said yes as it feels that I should care because it SHOULD be relevant and important to said character. For all the gay people I know sexuality is an important element to who they are as people. The friends I have who are in positions (at work) where they can be open about it are invariably happier than those who are forced to conceal it.

Now I don't think that it's being handled in comics particularly well, you're right, it all seems too "shock value-y" but if done properly...you would care, because it would be an opportunity to raise awareness and provide some interesting storylines.

Relationships are always a huge part of characterization, so while not the most important part, not caring seems forced.

[drwally]

I'm just poking at you. I'm right there with you on Quicksilver

...which gives me more of an inch to pull out the case on this one.

Oh, and if anybody is wondering, I think Quicksilver is a totally conceited prick, with a chip on his shoulder...and why would that be...(OK I'll stop now)

[drwally]

I voted yes here,

though it was a thinker. I said yes as it feels that I should care because it SHOULD be relevant and important to said character. For all the gay people I know sexuality is an important element to who they are as people. The friends I have who are in positions (at work) where they can be open about it are invariably happier than those who are forced to conceal it.

Now I don't think that it's being handled in comics particularly well, you're right, it all seems too "shock value-y" but if done properly...you would care, because it would be an opportunity to raise awareness and provide some interesting storylines.

Relationships are always a huge part of characterization, so while not the most important part, not caring seems forced.

"and provide some interesting storylines."

Now THERE is a pretty good reason in and of itself...Marvel benefited tremendously from all the diversity Kirby and others pumped into the Marvel U; "outsider status struggling with that" -- it's the stuff that makes the X-Men books run like a franchise all its own....when all is too familiar, that's when the gas runs out...

[fred]

on the relationship thing and their importance in characterization:

I love that. I like the drama aspects on many books. So maybe this preference of mine is another reason why I'm inclined to say that there should be more.

[drwally]

on the relationship thing and their importance in characterization:

I love that. I like the drama aspects on many books. So maybe this preference of mine is another reason why I'm inclined to say that there should be more.

Definitely, but I think this is a preference thing--I've definitely noticed that some people want more action adventure fight suspense stuff with less relationship melodrama (Jimski? Nah....), whereas others want more "soap" in the mix, with the fights and stuff more on the other side of the scale.

This is a factor... Me? I love the action and adventure and a well done fight and all that, but I gotta have my soap opera too...

[cam-]

Definitely, but I think this is a preference thing--I've definitely noticed that some people want more action adventure fight suspense stuff with less relationship melodrama (Jimski? Nah....), whereas others want more "soap" in the mix, with the fights and stuff more on the other side of the scale.

This is a factor... Me? I love the action and adventure and a well done fight and all that, but I gotta have my soap opera too...

I think that, in any long standing series, you'll only really stick around if you can empathize with the character on some level. Fights are great but only when there's some meaning behind them.

That said I don't read Savage Dragon...

(Oh look I have an Avatar)

[fred]

Definitely, but I think this is a preference thing--I've definitely noticed that some people want more action adventure fight suspense stuff with less relationship melodrama (Jimski? Nah....), whereas others want more "soap" in the mix, with the fights and stuff more on the other side of the scale.

This is a factor... Me? I love the action and adventure and a well done fight and all that, but I gotta have my soap opera too...

nothing drives me more insane than a book with a 21 page fight and a one page one shot final with someone making a dumb statement

[niko]

I really honestly don't care one way or the other if a character is gay. However I do not like it when a writer makes a character homosexual just for the sake of them being gay. If there is a good reason or if adds some sort of depth or content to the person's backstory or personality then I am perfectly fine with it.

But if a character is introduced and doesn't have any bearing or impact on the story and is just there to have a "well rounded cast" I do not like it. The same would apply for people of other races, religions, viewpoints, etc.

[cam-]

"With dry cool wit like that I could be an action hero"

I'm still upset that Arnie didn't say "Ice to see you" in Batman & Robin.

But I digress.

[comhcinc]

i don't care as long as it drives the story, but mostly it's been for shock value.


what i want to see is gay supervillians.

[niko]

i don't care as long as it drives the story, but mostly it's been for shock value.


what i want to see is gay supervillians.

As long as them being gay doesn't have anything to do with their name. That could get pretty ugly...

[fred]

they could make Quicksilver a supervillian :rolleyes:

[comhcinc]

http://www.harpiesbizarre.com/superarthur.jpgYES!!! (btw that is uncle arthur from bewitched)






see kiddies hours of tv watching does pay off






tell me you don't want to see batman face off against...DRAG QUEEN!!!
http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds-3/folsom-street-fair-drag-queen.jpg

[paper]

.............Dad?

[drwally]

i don't care as long as it drives the story, but mostly it's been for shock value.


what i want to see is gay supervillians.

Problem with this view (and I am willing to admit to it being a valid one) is that just the very fact that a character is gay suddenly makes it a "shock value" thing, and there you have the problem. I mean really, everyone got all hot and bothered and "shocked" about Midnighter and Apollo, but did you see the kiss that set off that firestorm? Heteroesexual readers are SHOCKED that somebody is gay, so it's shock value.

A peck on the cheek in "The Authority" causing a big deal? When this becomes the definition of "shock value," then the barrier is two high. Hetero characters are "gettin' busy" all the time, but two guys holding hands, a hint at a relationship...

SHOCK VALUE! Can't have that...when gay characters are supposed to adhere to Victorian sexual behavior while the straights are all gettin' busy (again, see Brubaker's run on Captain America, Hawkeye latest thing with Wanda, any female character in a multicolered spray suit with melon boobies) so as to not unduly shock the readership, again, it's a recipe for: gay characters, not going to happen. Too SHOCKING.

I've always been OK with gay supervillans, just as long as it doesn't cater to stereotypes (as in blacks are pimps and ghetto gangstas) and there is no counterpoint on the hero side, which makes the point clear: gay not the problem, ruthless, power mongering and predatory is. I'm totally up for that.

[fred]

ooooh melon boobies

[drwally]

they could make Quicksilver a supervillian :rolleyes:

Supervillan? Conflcted with a chip on his shoulder, right from his inception --When was he not, when was he, and why is he always bouncing back and forth, always alienated, always at odds with others around him, what's going on here? Unrelsoved personal issues, much?

My prescription: a few visits to Doc Samson, to get to this place:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezBWBf36724

"I've been to Attilan,
But I've never been to me..."

[niko]

I wonder if a good power for a gay supervillian would be....

THE ***** SLAP

[cam-]

The pump handle slam.

[darron]

The Mushroom Stamp.

[k-dizzle]

Yes 6 18.18%
No 27 81.82%

the numbers say alot about the ifanboy crowd

[big-doze]

For the record, I voted yes. I did so because I get really upset if gay characters are handled poorly and/or unnaturally, and I'm always really pleased when they appear in a positive manner where their sexuality isn't the big concern for the character (much like my feelings toward black heroes).

So yes, I care. Maybe I care... too much... *chokes back tears*

[conorkilpatrick]

For the record, I voted yes. I did so because I get really upset if gay characters are handled poorly and/or unnaturally, and I'm always really pleased when they appear in a positive manner where their sexuality isn't the big concern for the character (much like my feelings toward black heroes).

So yes, I care. Maybe I care... too much... *chokes back tears*

Yeah, the poll question is somewhat flawed in that I could answer "yes" because I do care that there are gay characters but also "no" because I don't care that there are gay characters in the way that I assume the poll implies.

Be more specific when writing your polls, people! :)

[drwally]

Some of the ideas for Gay Super Villain sound like something out of a bad JMS book (sorry guys, had to go there). I mean, why resort to cliche when you can model after the really serious baddest of the bad, the most evil of all evil masterminds, the master keeper of all dirty secrets?

In this era of "CW," I wonder how many people even know who these two guys are:
(that's a custom built bulletproof limosine in the background)
http://revision3.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=135&stc=1&d=1173186669

(So obvious, but how many people saw that one coming? The unexpected attack is always the most effective...)

[drwally]

J. Edgar Hoover, director of the FBI for over 50 years, and his lover Clyde Tolson, who went from bottom ranking field agent to Asst. director in under 10 years by 1938. They made the term "G-Man" respectable. I'm sure straight guys take pictures of each other like that all the time....;)

[fred]

the real question is who took a picture of them taking a picture?

[drwally]

the real question is who took a picture of them taking a picture?

Photo attributed to Wide World Photos, probably a standard press photo service, Miami Beach, 1939: Hoover told the press they were in Florida to lead a drive against "criminal scum." This was one of their semiannual "nonvacations" (Hoover claimed to have never taken a vacation during his entire 50+ year tenure at the FBI).

Isn't that what it looks like? Never underestimate the ability of the press to be complete idiots.

Tony Stark=rank amateur.

[drwally]

the real question is who took a picture of them taking a picture?

AND you had no idea who it was. You just kept looking and looking and wondering... Ever seen the X-Files, or any show with the FBI? "The J.Edgar Hoover Building" --> official HQ. How gay.

[deezer]

I agree with others who said that I don't mind it if it's in character. I'm always annoyed when writers (and directors, to an extent) put in a gay (or minority) character for the sake of putting them in, and writing them in a poor or derogatory manner. So I don't mind, for example, that Renee Montoya is a lesbian, I just don't "like" it when the writers either a) make too big of a deal out of it or b) force it down our throats (line after line of gay references). That being said, Renee is definitely my favorite/most well-written gay character that I've seen

[xyzzy]

I agree with others who said that I don't mind it if it's in character. I'm always annoyed when writers (and directors, to an extent) put in a gay (or minority) character for the sake of putting them in, and writing them in a poor or derogatory manner. So I don't mind, for example, that Renee Montoya is a lesbian, I just don't "like" it when the writers either a) make too big of a deal out of it or b) force it down our throats (line after line of gay references). That being said, Renee is definitely my favorite/most well-written gay character that I've seen

The Gotham Central arc where she was blackmailed about being a lesbian and she came out to her parents more or less revolved around her sexuality. I assume that you don't think that was making too big a deal out of it or forcing it down your throat. But why not?

[deezer]

I haven't read much about the character, just her in 52 and some of Gotham Central (I got into comics too late to read GC, my loss, I know) so it may well be that I wouldn't have liked that story arc, but I never read it, so I can't pass judgement on the character as a whole

[shane1337]

i am suprised no one has mentioned ace and gary (maybe they have i didn't read all 222 posts, i just searched the thread)..
it seemed to work well for them
http://www.npr.org/programs/fa/features/2006/apr/smigel.jpg

[mikegraham6]

i am suprised no one has mentioned ace and gary (maybe they have i didn't read all 222 posts, i just searched the thread)..
it seemed to work well for them
http://www.npr.org/programs/fa/features/2006/apr/smigel.jpg

listen buddy, ace and gary aren't gay, they are just really good friends.....at least i think so.....:confused:

[conorkilpatrick]

Ace & Gary are also these guys:

http://tcal.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/stephven.jpg

[drwally]

The Gotham Central arc where she was blackmailed about being a lesbian and she came out to her parents more or less revolved around her sexuality. I assume that you don't think that was making too big a deal out of it or forcing it down your throat. But why not?

I'm still waiting for the answer to this question...

[jaflanagan]

I would say it was because it was organic storytelling, rather than a character making ill-placed quips and puns about being gay.

That's my take.

[drwally]

The Gotham Central arc where she was blackmailed about being a lesbian and she came out to her parents more or less revolved around her sexuality. I assume that you don't think that was making too big a deal out of it or forcing it down your throat. But why not?

...and still waiting for an answer to this question from anyone, really, as Deezer made some good points: about characters not being just the gay stereotype that has the "Gay Man" name (like Black Goliath), or for straight guys to laugh at, or non comic readers to laugh at, or the character that get's all the misery heaped on them first (Northstar come out because of an AIDS baby)...Montaya is a good case, as she isn't (I think) a "lipstick lesbian" you can find in many a porn, er, comic book...

I guess it kind of goes to the "I'm OK with 'the gays' (i.e. men) so long as I don't have to see them" thing...

Two good places where the topic was discussed on podcasts:
1) Around Comics Episode 53 (with guest Steve from CBQ as token queer)
2) Comic Book Queers Epidsode 14 (with 2 Around Comics guys as token straights) topic was: Heterosexuality in Comics: is it too visible? Is it pushed in your face? How are heterosexual relationships treated by the comics industry?

[xyzzy]

I'm still waiting for the answer to this question...

Well, the reason I asked is because I always hear this "shove it in our faces" argument when some folks talk about gay people. And 9 times out of 10, this shoving is just the person being gay, just like a heterosexual person is heterosexual. If a gay couple walks down the street holding hands, that's "shoving it in our faces." God forbid one gives the other a peck on the cheek like so many hetero couples do. Having pictures of their partner on their desk at work. Talking about what they did that weekend with their partner. These are normal things people do regardless of what their sexuality is, yet it's somehow grotesque when it's a gay person.

In comics, sometimes it seems like people are only okay with gay characters if it is never ever referenced or shown in the comic. You get your one special issue and then it is to never be mentioned again, lest you be accused of shoving it in everyones face. That, to me, it just as unnatural and jarring as if it was the focus of every issue.

[drwally]

Well, the reason I asked is because I always hear this "shove it in our faces" argument when some folks talk about gay people. And 9 times out of 10, this shoving is just the person being gay, just like a heterosexual person is heterosexual. If a gay couple walks down the street holding hands, that's "shoving it in our faces." God forbid one gives the other a peck on the cheek like so many hetero couples do. Having pictures of their partner on their desk at work. Talking about what they did that weekend with their partner. These are normal things people do regardless of what their sexuality is, yet it's somehow grotesque when it's a gay person.

In comics, sometimes it seems like people are only okay with gay characters if it is never ever referenced or shown in the comic. You get your one special issue and then it is to never be mentioned again, lest you be accused of shoving it in everyones face. That, to me, it just as unnatural and jarring as if it was the focus of every issue.

Agree, agree, agree. EXACTLY. On Around Comics, the guest Steve from Comic Book Queers quoted a very quotable quote from Quentin Crisp: "The problem straight men have with gay men, is that any gay reference at all makes them suddenly start to imagine what gay people do when in the bedroom. If they could just stop trying to imagine what gay people do in the bedroom, then they would quickly get over their problems with men being gay."

Garrison Keelor: "Most people don't want to imagine what gay people do in their bedroom, but I don't want to imagine what my parents do in the bedroom. Does that make it wrong?"

I just read Batman and the Monstermen, and I loved it; there was a female love interest, and believe it or not, I was not distracted from the story because I was "forced" to imagine Bruce "did" in the bedroom with his girl "off panel." I also don't imagine what Reed and Sue do in the bedroom when I read Fantastic Four; I don't imagine what Hank Pym and Janet do in the bedroom as if it were "Avengers: Earth's Porn-iest Heroes." Superman and Lois lane: "OH MY GOD! WHAT kind of KINKY SEX are they having IN BETWEEN FRAMES!!" Sorry, never occurred to me.

But, just take a look at the recent "Vlog-Hot" posts, and I seem to be the only person that voted for Ron because he has a great personality and just someone who would make a great friend, and never worried about the "sexual implications" of the contest, and I seem to be rather alone in that.

To be fair, I fear our straight fanboy brothers have been subjected to societal conditioning which is very hard to break. Just imagine how difficult it is to get your friends (who would probably like many comics) to not stigmatize the medium, as they have been conditioned by society to do; sexuality is just the same, but more deeply "programmed" by our rather puritanical society.

And I feel so great that this is a place I feel very welcome (with no small thanks to Ron on the Podcast). You guys and gals are the best. Everybody learning something new and ready to learn more from other members, a great environment.

Rant over. Somebody else take over.

[fred]

I like to imagine what Sue and Namor would do in the bedroom

but I'm ****ed up so feel free to ignore me

[drwally]

I like to imagine what Sue and Namor would do in the bedroom

but I'm ****ed up so feel free to ignore me

BOY did you just fall into a big TRAP there -- no way am I letting that one go; anytime I can geek out on Fred citing hetero Marvel heros is never to be ignored...

Actually, I was surprised to find that the CBQ folks were big Namor lovers like me. But here it is: Namor is the total outsider completely unconcerned with what others think about him. He's uber powerful, totally self confident, and couldn't give a rat's arse if people don't think his way. There's the appeal, not the speedo.

Namor on CW:

Look at the very first Illuminati story by Bendis and Maleev, when they sent the Hulk off to another planet -- who was the first person (right after T'Challa, bless his noble sole), to totally call Reed, Tony, and even Dr. Strange on their B.S. and guess what--he was totally right.
His message was: "You people can destroy yourselves all you want, but leave me and mine alone, or there WILL be consequences." This has appeal to the LGBT readers. AND he was totally right about all the CW fallout before it even started.

Sue Richards

Point made in CBQ podcast: Total Doormat. Look at the way Reed treats her: Total Doormat. Namor's appeal to Sue has always been that he's an "anti-Reed," somebody who actually pays attention to who she is, unlike Reed, who totally takes for granted that she will always be there while Reed locks himself in the laboratory.

Namor -- "You are a lovely woman. I want to sweep you off your feet, because of who you are."
Reed -- "Sue, go make sandwiches for everybody while I discover a new invention. What? Not now! I'm busy!"

So guess which man is more popular with the gay guys and women? AND, the problem with dealing with Gay Supervillains is the straight heroes walk into traps ALL the time...

and you just fell big time into that one, Fredikins, you great guy. Your love of Wolverine is so apparent -- all quick reaction (sometimes too fast), all impulse and quick strike, but....well prepared trap door opens, reveal, super villain cackles, to be continued...

[fred]

Oh the things I do for you Wally. I thought out my response.

OK, I get why many lgbt people are into Namor. That was a good explanation.

My joke though had to do with the fact that Sue and Namor have intense sexual chemistry while she seems to have none with Reed. How that scene with the two of them in CW 6 didn't end in savage, primal, animal-****ing I will never know.

[kwok_talk]

My joke though had to do with the fact that Sue and Namor have intense sexual chemistry while she seems to have none with Reed. How that scene with the two of them in CW 6 didn't end in savage, primal, animal-****ing I will never know.

Namor seems to have intense sexual chemistry with himself. I didn’t catch it until they brought it up with iFanboy, but man the way he’s thrusting himself and looking at his junk in CW#6 is really creepy.

[fred]

Namor seems to have intense sexual chemistry with himself. I didn’t catch it until they brought it up with iFanboy, but man the way he’s thrusting himself and looking at his junk in CW#6 is really creepy.

totally. That scene reminded me of Tom Cruise in Magnolia with the whole ridiculous 'respect the co*k' thing. He's clearly hanging it out there

[drwally]

Oh the things I do for you Wally. I thought out my response.

OK, I get why many lgbt people are into Namor. That was a good explanation.

My joke though had to do with the fact that Sue and Namor have intense sexual chemistry while she seems to have none with Reed. How that scene with the two of them in CW 6 didn't end in savage, primal, animal-****ing I will never know.

... and you are always much appreciated, Fred!

On Sue and Reed:

You really need to go to the Comic Book Queers podcast, and just check out the episode:"Heterosexuality in Comics" with two guests from Around Comics (two token straight guys) -- the FIRST topic is Sue and Reed, and that whole dynamic, Byrne's take on her, and even up to and especially including the CW stuff and what's likely to come next. My favorite CBQ regular TOTALLY deconstructs the Sue-Reed thing, and all my comments on Sue are ripped off from CBQ, but that's just tip of the ice burg on all that. I would just be repeating what I heard elsewhere -- go to the source. Listen, and you will totally be like, "YEAH, that is so totally true," and you will totally get the Sue (let's herself get treated like a doormat) and Reed (intellectual genius, emotional child) thing.

Lots of talk about Scott (Cyclops) and Jean Grey-- "all I ever did was die on you, Scott." When they get into the "Did Claremont turn Scott into a p***y?" thing on the Jean issue, it get's really interesting.... It's hilarious which side (queer vs. straight) take which side on that....

I think you'll go in with trepidations, but be like, "YEAH! That totally TRUE! I get it now!"

Reed and the bedroom -- too busy poking around the negative zone to be much help there, but again, I am ripping off CBQ.

[fred]

Sue, I've invented this device that um....

Even I can't finish that sentence

[drwally]

Sue, I've invented this device that um....

Even I can't finish that sentence

Sue: "OK, Reed, WHATEVER, can you come to bed now?"

[kwok_talk]

Sue, I've invented this device that um....

Even I can't finish that sentence

The ultimate sexifier?

[fred]

yeah that's where I was going with that

something tells me though that Reed's ultimate sexifier would involve him being back in the lab not having to participate.

[xyzzy]

yeah that's where I was going with that

something tells me though that Reed's ultimate sexifier would involve him being back in the lab not having to participate.


He's stretchy. Can't he do both?

[kwok_talk]

yeah that's where I was going with that

something tells me though that Reed's ultimate sexifier would involve him being back in the lab not having to participate.

It’d attract Galactus, which would occupy Sue for a long time so Reed could continue working in his lab.

[fred]

Galactus will eat your um planet

[fred]

He's stretchy. Can't he do both?

possibly but I'm of the opinion that he wouldn't want to

not because I think he's gay or anything but because I think he's asexual/distracted

[xyzzy]

Galactus will eat your um planet


Galactus is such a tease. Sure, he talks a big game, but he's just been going through the motions since he got dumped by the Silver Surfer.

[kwok_talk]

Galactus is such a tease. Sure, he talks a big game, but he's just been going through the motions since he got dumped by the Silver Surfer.

Galactus will rock your world. And then destroy it…sexily.

[xyzzy]

Galactus will rock your world. And then destroy it…sexily.

Sure, he'll come down here. Get out all of his toys. Maybe even start eating. But when was the last time he really destroyed Earth? I mean, really, really destroyed it? He's such a selfish entity. Just comes, takes his Heralds and leaves.

[fred]

Galactus will rock your world. And then destroy it…sexily.

Galactus is double-jointed. I don't how that helps, but I think it does

[drwally]

Namor seems to have intense sexual chemistry with himself. I didn’t catch it until they brought it up with iFanboy, but man the way he’s thrusting himself and looking at his junk in CW#6 is really creepy.

Hey man, can't blame a dude for knowing what he's got and has no problem with it....especially as the guy that everyone else in the Marvel U is like, "Oh, you're just the irritating guy that's full of himself, never does what we tell you to do (and can kick all our butts)"

As for that picture, I haven't seen it, so I can't comment on that, but I think that says a bit more about the artist than the character...so what his deal is is anybody's guess....

and on that subject I was a little bit more than surprised by CHECKMATE: A Kings Game, the cover to the trade, where Alan Scott in full Green Lantern/Sentinal costume and has this massive woody under his green pants... I was like, "Uh, what's the purpose of this? That's just weird." The thing about comics still having a bit of a late 60s/early 70s attitude about sexuality, is that it "pops" out in some very strange, unexpected, and weird places, and people like me are as perplexed as anyone else.

A rather "sexually repressed" environment just fuels some weird pictures....go to the 50s comics, when the comics code was in full force, and its all OVER the place, totally out of place and just...strange. This is where all the Batman/Robin gay rumor started (totally unfounded in my opinion), and more a result of sexually repression both straight and gay than anything else...