Captain America #25

[mikegraham6]

Stephen Colbert devoted tonights word to the memory of Captain America. the Best part? when he showed a clip of a fox news correspondant talking about cap in reference to him going against the government "The thing about comics is they are for the most part realistic..." cut back to stephen "couldn't agree more".... Priceless :D

[jimski]

Holy s***, Colbert's entire opening segment was about Civil War! "Comic justice" was tonight's Word! I almost feel like I'm a part of American culture for a change, and not just because my wife watches Idol! Awesome!

("Awesome" trademark Ron Richards 2007.)

[grandolephil]

Yeah I know Cap pushed that guy out of the way and took the bullet. I know his last thoughts were of the safety of others but dammit that is not enough. I want Cap to go down swinging and not just swinging but winning.

Is that too much to ask?


Cap will be back when we need him most. It's mythology. There's going to be political overtones to anything Cap does. The only reason we have this story done this way is because the writers think Vietnam never ended. Politics aside, it's very 70's noir and I like it. Even the Batbooks are revisiting that era.

I believe the public within Marvel U will never officially know who the assassain is, but after a while we'll find out it was Fury who popped a...eh..Cap. Steve will still be around elsewhere until humanity in the Marvel U decides they need a representative within the super community. Here they are with metas, mutants, and aliens fighting the good fight for them and for 60 years lead by a protegy of human potential. Captain America is their greatest hero and its time they understood that.

[fred]

Nobody saw this one coming

Captain America #25 back to presses for second printing (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104506)

[watsonglenn]

Cap will be back when we need him most. It's mythology. There's going to be political overtones to anything Cap does. The only reason we have this story done this way is because the writers think Vietnam never ended. Politics aside, it's very 70's noir and I like it. Even the Batbooks are revisiting that era.

Of course you are right. I just would have liked the story to be better. Its not hard to write a good story if the editors tell you that you can kill Captain America at the end. I mean how hard is that to get right?

[aleks07]

My usual Friday evening/night corresponds to leaving work at 5pm, hitting the bar with workmates, then stumbling half-drunk into midtown comics to pickup whatever looked interesting to read.....

Of course reading Civil War here and there, I wanted to pick up Captain America #25.

Living in New York, I thought.. surely all 3 midtown stores can't be sold out (even I could easily pick up a copy of Death of Superman some days later)? I tried both Midtown Comics (Lexington & 7th Ave stores) and Jim Hanley's Universe but unfortunately I'll have to wait till mid next week (hopefully not 2nd printing)?

For any New Yorker's here.... is there a store I could pick up a copy? I'm also a 1st printing nut too, the story is the most important part but I just like the thought of having the issue with the 'original cover' :)

[jaflanagan]

Of course you are right. I just would have liked the story to be better. Its not hard to write a good story if the editors tell you that you can kill Captain America at the end. I mean how hard is that to get right?

I don't hear a lot of other people complaining about the story. You wrote all this stuff about "respecting the character" and I'm fairly certain that the first couple years of Brubaker's Cap issues did just that. Also, the story isn't over. The story just started. You don't know the story yet. You know the first act, maybe the cold open. When it's over, then you can say it wasn't good.

And Jack Ruby was shot point blank close up. If anything, it's more Jack Kennedy style.

[conorkilpatrick]

For any New Yorker's here.... is there a store I could pick up a copy? I'm also a 1st printing nut too, the story is the most important part but I just like the thought of having the issue with the 'original cover' :)

I don't know of any. Josh and I were in Cosmic Comics on 23rd on Friday and they didn't have any either.

[watsonglenn]

And Jack Ruby was shot point blank close up. If anything, it's more Jack Kennedy style.

The shots that killed Cap were up close. His girlfriend shot him twice in the gut.

And I can decide after reading an issue that it is not good. I have been reading comics for long enough to be able to make that determination. If you want to wait then wait.

My point is that killing a hero like Cap should be done in a more dramatic and inspirational way. You disagree. Thats fine.

[jaflanagan]

You're right about the shooting thing. I forgot about the ending.

[jaflanagan]

I don't know of any. Josh and I were in Cosmic Comics on 23rd on Friday and they didn't have any either.

They did have a sign up that said, "We'll have more first printings on wednesday next week."

[fred]

They did have a sign up that said, "We'll have more first printings on wednesday next week."

I know that a lot of stores will be getting them the following Wednesday as well. I've already reserved one copy at my lcs for someone here that hasn't been able to get one and can't get their lcs to promise them one in the second shipping. If anyone else has a problem let me know. I could probably do the same for one or two people.

[aleks07]

That's great news that another 1st printing shipment will come out next week.

Meanwhile.... some people are getting desperate:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Death-of-Captain-America-25-Both-Covers-Civil-War_W0QQitemZ160094136787QQcategoryZ32751QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

[k-dizzle]

That's great news that another 1st printing shipment will come out next week.

Meanwhile.... some people are getting desperate:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Death-of-Captain-America-25-Both-Covers-Civil-War_W0QQitemZ160094136787QQcategoryZ32751QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem
The first day was the worst. This auction ended at 202.50 for six dollars worth of comic books. http://cgi.ebay.com/Captain-America-25-Death-of-Captain-America-Set_W0QQitemZ290090741425QQihZ019QQcategoryZ37839Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[fred]

The first day was the worst. This auction ended at 202.50 for six dollars worth of comic books. http://cgi.ebay.com/Captain-America-25-Death-of-Captain-America-Set_W0QQitemZ290090741425QQihZ019QQcategoryZ37839Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

a fool and his money are soon parted
there's a sucker born every minute
Christ, people are stupid

all 3 of the adages mean the same thing but for some reason my version never took off

[k-dizzle]

a fool and his money are soon parted
there's a sucker born every minute
Christ, people are stupid

all 3 of the adages mean the same thing but for some reason my version never took off Dont worry Fred some day you will create an idiom that will catch on, this one however is not it. There's a sucker born every minute is a famous P.T. Barnum quote. Who coind the other phrase?

[mikegraham6]

i thought we were done with this craze back in the 90s, hell i dont even bag and board my shit anymore. the product itself is worthless to me, its the story that i value and as long as i can re-read my books, im happy. i think i should sell my copy of cap 25 for 60 bucks and just buy the trade when it comes out.

[fred]

Dont worry Fred some day you will create an idiom that will catch on, this one however is not it. There's a sucker born every minute is a famous P.T. Barnum quote. Who coind the other phrase?

It was coined by 16th century English farmer and writer Thomas Tusser (http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/a_fool_and_his_money_are_soon_parted/154153.html)

[jimski]

It was coined by 16th century English farmer and writer Thomas Tusser (http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/a_fool_and_his_money_are_soon_parted/154153.html)

That is fascinating. Thomas Tusser, a farmer who wrote sometimes, and had no idea people would be quoting him five hundred years later.

When attributing quotes, my rule of thumb is "Whenever it isn't Shakespeare, it's the Bible." I'd have guessed the Bible on this one.

[fred]

That is fascinating. Thomas Tusser, a farmer who wrote sometimes, and had no idea people would be quoting him five hundred years later.

When attributing quotes, my rule of thumb is "Whenever it isn't Shakespeare, it's the Bible." I'd have guessed the Bible on this one.

He's also famous for saying: 'Look out for that pile of cow shit'

OK, so maybe he's not but there are others in the link

[watsonglenn]

Dont worry Fred some day you will create an idiom that will catch on, this one however is not it. There's a sucker born every minute is a famous P.T. Barnum quote. Who coind the other phrase?

I thought it was Shakespeare.

[k-dizzle]

It was coined by 16th century English farmer and writer Thomas Tusser (http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/a_fool_and_his_money_are_soon_parted/154153.html)
thanks for the answer. did you google it, or was it something you knew already? My brain is filled with comic book stories and Beastie Boys lyrics, I admit with shame.

[k-dizzle]

That is fascinating.
When attributing quotes, my rule of thumb is "Whenever it isn't Shakespeare, it's the Bible." I'd have guessed the Bible on this one.

oh yeah cuz all us jews f'in love money right jimski? anti-semite. Seriously though, that is a damn fine rule.

[fred]

thanks for the answer. did you google it, or was it something you knew already? My brain is filled with comic book stories and Beastie Boys lyrics, I admit with shame.

I hit it like this, I hit like that, I hit with the Google

[kwok_talk]

The 3.10.07 CBS Evening News (available on iTunes) had its ending segment on the death of Captain America. I found it somewhat surreal to hear it being reported, and have the reporter narrate the summary of Civil War. I know it’s a big deal to us comic fans, but just seems weird to hear about it on the news treated with somewhat seriousness.

[iSteve]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Wubbs/cap_sig.jpg

[fred]

did rob liefeld draw the second panel?

[iSteve]

did rob liefeld draw the second panel?

I don't know. Just thought it was funny.

[fred]

me too - just saying

[drwally]

I haven't read the "Death of" yet, but I find the reaction to Sharon pulling the trigger to be very...what is the word I am looking for...sorry, I'm coming up short...anybody got a quote handy?

[grandolephil]

Convenient? I'm too young to remember but I think the buzz from Superman's death and speculation carried on for much longer then this has. All I see on forums is obituaries, parody, and sarcasm. No passion.

Remember the whole morale of the story is when the country goes to war there's a cost, and America dies. That's not nearly resonating as much as it should be.

[mikegraham6]

Convenient? I'm too young to remember but I think the buzz from Superman's death and speculation carried on for much longer then this has. All I see on forums is obituaries, parody, and sarcasm. No passion.

Remember the whole morale of the story is when the country goes to war there's a cost, and America dies. That's not nearly resonating as much as it should be.

i thought the morale was "if you go against your president, you die" :rolleyes:

[drwally]

Convenient? I'm too young to remember but I think the buzz from Superman's death and speculation carried on for much longer then this has. All I see on forums is obituaries, parody, and sarcasm. No passion.

Remember the whole morale of the story is when the country goes to war there's a cost, and America dies. That's not nearly resonating as much as it should be.

I remember when Superman died, didn't read it or buy it (I was pretty fed up with comic book "events" and gimmicks getting in the way of good stories) but all it got was just a few headlines in the mainstream press. I was still kind of reading comics the, but for the life of me I can't remember how he died or how he came alive again -- I just remember the cover everywhere and lots of people who didn't know two cents about comics suddenly becoming experts on comic collecting to make a profit. Can't speak for fan reaction back then. But I will say I have seen more passion than sarcasm or parody on this forum from members.

As for the morale of the story... I think people will just make of it what they will, it has been a long CW of a year, and I'm with one guy on CBQ that said a great chance to deal with many of America's current problems in the comics medium has been missed due to shallow writing in the main book. This is also frequently mentioned on this forum, and I think Brubaker's story certainly has gotten major props from this crowd as opposed to the main CW book which definitely has not.

But fear not: I think the cult of hype and celebrity blitz will always ensure that the media will hype a comic with great passion without reading it, rather than covering the Scooter Libbey trial and its fallout and other weighty issues in depth.

[fred]

Colbert doing more death of Cap stuff tonight (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104834)

[iSteve]

Colbert doing more death of Cap stuff tonight (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104834)

Thanks Fred. I'll be sure to tivo it.

[kwok_talk]

So, I just read Cap #25 and I have to say that I was actually kind of disappointed by the book. Not that the issue itself was bad, but after all of the hoopla and publicity and spoilers, I think it really blew up my expectations a lot.

[grandolephil]

I was ready to cancel all of my Marvel books after hearing this week's podcast. Most of the Marvel stories I've been subscribed to overall rotated around Cap anyway, and that's 8 titles. After I read this...

http://comicnewsi.com/article.php?catid=99&itemid=9485


"One of the biggest questions is "Why?" Few have shown the strength, let alone have had the training, to properly wield the shield, so its use as a weapon seems negligible. If it was stolen to act as a trophy, then it must be taken back and placed in a museum proper. Whatever the reason, whosoever has the shield now will have much to answer for, particularly in these tumultuous times."



...I changed my mind. Way ta bring it home and until Cap returns, Make Mine Marvel :)

[k33k3r]

I'm to the point now that I'm just going to sit back and watch what happens. I hope to enjoy it but I'm tired of all the moaning and complaining. Supposedly there is a petition letting marvel know that if they do not bring Steve back they are going to drop all their Marvel titles. To those saying this, do you really thing the great beast that is Marvel cares about losing a couple people? With how many this event may have started down the comics path? Such it up and wait to see what happens. Aight sorry I'm done.

[cloneboy]

I'm to the point now that I'm just going to sit back and watch what happens.

That is the only attitude to have when you are a comic book reader. I left comics after the whole Clone Saga... actually it was when they rolled out 'The Scarlet Spider' with his sleeveless sweatshirt that I called it quits. (Like my Avatar?) But when I came back I realized I had missed so many great story arcs. I also realized that everything gets reset at some point. I mean name one mainstream superhero that has really changed over the years. I'm talking about the big guys: Spidy, Superman, Batman, Fantastic 4, etc. they are all the same people, wearing the exact same costumes with almost the exact same powers. I mean, think about that from a fashion stand point. Spider-Man is wear the exact same red and blue pajamas that he did in the '60s. Superman since the '30s! I can't think of any other pop culture thing/event that has lasted that long.

The point is enjoy the change while it lasts. Because until they push the reset button (and they will) we are going to have some fresh new Captain America stories that we wouldn't otherwise get.

[fred]

Marvel gives Cap's shield to Colbert (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104912)

[k33k3r]

So there's the new Cap. He shall be able to laugh thim into submission.

[mikegraham6]

now my question is: SPOILER WARNING FOR CIVIL WAR; INITIATIVE





in that issue, spiderwoman is talking to ms marvel and they are discussing caps death. i read this issue first and i assumed people jsut thought that cap had died after CW. after reading Cap 25, i went back to it. Spiderwoman says "CAPTAIN AMERICA IS DEAD!" and Ms Marvel says "He's not" "he's tucked away safe on the raft. no one knows. NO ONE! they're trying to save his life as we speak."
so maybe he isn't dead???

so if this was bugging anyone, i just read New Avengers and it looks like it IS in fact being addressed. thank god! i was worried they were going to let this one hang...

[cam-]

DOn't know if this has come up already, but here's a link to a rundown of Cap's various Death and Resurrections.

http://filingcabinetofthedamned.blogspot.com/2005/06/like-jesus-but-with-fisticuffs.html

[mikegraham6]

DOn't know if this has come up already, but here's a link to a rundown of Cap's various Death and Resurrections.

http://filingcabinetofthedamned.blogspot.com/2005/06/like-jesus-but-with-fisticuffs.html

after reading this, and seeing how recent some of cap's deaths were, ive gotta wonder: why was this one such a big deal?? was it because of civil war? was it because his book and the character in general has been written so well lately??

[conorkilpatrick]

after reading this, and seeing how recent some of cap's deaths were, ive gotta wonder: why was this one such a big deal?? was it because of civil war? was it because his book and the character in general has been written so well lately??

I think it's probably a combo of both of those things. Cap has been front and center in the Marvel U for the past year. When he died before it was when no one (in comics) really knew he existed.

[watsonglenn]

after reading this, and seeing how recent some of cap's deaths were, ive gotta wonder: why was this one such a big deal?? was it because of civil war? was it because his book and the character in general has been written so well lately??

In the other deaths we did not actually see Cap's body in a morgue.

[k-dizzle]

DOn't know if this has come up already, but here's a link to a rundown of Cap's various Death and Resurrections.

http://filingcabinetofthedamned.blogspot.com/2005/06/like-jesus-but-with-fisticuffs.html Thanks for the link, I hadn’t seen it before. I have re read civil war and Caps death, and it seems like Marvel has really done something good here. As Civil War came out it started strong and then it seemed redundant at about issue #5. Reading it again as a whole with the intended ending in place, it reads good and it feels like it is actually building to something. I think it will be looked back at as a good major event for Marvel, and obviously written better than Death of Superman. Jeff Loeb had some very interesting things to say about the Fallen Son story line on word balloon this week, enough to make me want to read it anyway….

[watsonglenn]

Thanks for the link, I hadn’t seen it before. I have re read civil war and Caps death, and it seems like Marvel has really done something good here. As Civil War came out it started strong and then it seemed redundant at about issue #5. Reading it again as a whole with the intended ending in place, it reads good and it feels like it is actually building to something. I think it will be looked back at as a good major event for Marvel, and obviously written better than Death of Superman. Jeff Loeb had some very interesting things to say about the Fallen Son story line on word balloon this week, enough to make me want to read it anyway….

You are the second person to say that. I could not disagree more. Superman's death lasted for several issues over several states. The art was above average, the enemy was new and exciting and it was an great fight with a real payoff.

Cap on the other hand was betrayed by his friends, shot once by a second rate bad guy and then twice in the gut by his hypnotised girl friend. Lets hold off on the Eisner awards.

[xyzzy]

You are the second person to say that. I could not disagree more. Superman's death lasted for several issues over several states. The art was above average, the enemy was new and exciting and it was an great fight with a real payoff.

Cap on the other hand was betrayed by his friends, shot once by a second rate bad guy and then twice in the gut by his hypnotised girl friend.

I find the second scenario endlessly more fascinating.

[conorkilpatrick]

I find the second scenario endlessly more fascinating.

Agreed. I enjoyed Superman #75 and I am really looking forward to the DVD movie, but Captain America #25 was in another league.

[k-dizzle]

Agreed. I enjoyed Superman #75 and I am really looking forward to the DVD movie, but Captain America #25 was in another league.
Hell yeah!!!! Superman VS doomsady, against the death of Captain America. I’ll take Brubakers Cap over Jurgens Supe story any day!!! When death of superman came out it was a huge media event, bigger than the Cap event some would say. I think the Captain America story captured the story and over all feel of the character more. You may not like the event and you might disagree with the outcome, but the Cap story was handled with finesse by a very skilled writer who has an obvious love of the character.

[darron]

I don't think the two can be fairly compared...both happened under about as different a set a circumstancea as there is.

That being said, I'll always have a soft spot for the page when Supes and Doomsday are in front of the Daily Planet, they both punch each other, and the impact of the punches almost brings the Planet down.

In fact, I found the picture;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/DarrOn/doomsday.jpg

O.K., maybe I over-exaggerated a bit.

I always genuinely loved The Death of Superman arc. I read it every couple of years, I even read it a few times in the years I didn't read comics.

[k-dizzle]

I don't think the two can be fairly compared...both happened under about as different a set a circumstancea as there is.

That being said, I'll always have a soft spot for the page when Supes and Doomsday are in front of the Daily Planet, they both punch each other, and the impact of the punches almost brings the Planet down.

In fact, I found the picture;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/DarrOn/doomsday.jpg

O.K., maybe I over-exaggerated a bit.

I always genuinely loved The Death of Superman arc. I read it every couple of years, I even read it a few times in the years I didn't read comics.Well Darron, I feel that you genuinely love comic books as much as I do, but Caps death holds much more significance to me. On one hand I think the events can be fairly compared because they both involve the deaths of major players in their respective universes, on the other hand I fell the circumstances differ because the death of Superman was written and unleashed to become a media blitz, as on the other hand the Death of Captain America was written out of genuine love and affection for the Character. I don’t want to belittle the death of Superman, I just feel this story was brought about in a totally different manner. It doesn’t feel as cheap to me. Also I have three hands protruding from my body, go figure.

[grandolephil]

I just got my issue #25 from my direct subscription in pristine condition no less. LOL! Makes me wish I would have kept the last 12 issues in better shape instead of throwing them in the closet to be wrecked by the rest of the stuff I don't have room for.

Anyway there's no question that Cap will be back sometime soon. It's written with such respect to Steve that you know the best is on the way. Still I could have gone without the gory image of his lifeless eyes on the last page. That image will top off many an unsettling dream. They're trying to do the cinematic storytelling with piles of grit and while very well executed it makes my stomach churn and breaks my heart.

It feels like the heart of the Marvel U has been ripped away even though we all know it will be undone. It has too. The coma of Superman didn't rock this hard and I personally think comics should not rock. They should inspire. And that's what I'm eager to see out of this.

[watsonglenn]

I find the second scenario endlessly more fascinating.


Facinating perhaps but heroic and inspiring?

[watsonglenn]

I think the Captain America story captured the story and over all feel of the character more.


The overall feel of Captain America? Cap was handcuffed by the government and shot by his girlfriend. I'll grant you its dramatic but how is that capturing the feel of Captain America?

Its deconstuctionist writing. Its not inspiring or glorious or anything memorable. Its a sniper and a crazy girlfriend. Cap deserved a better death.

[paper]

Facinating perhaps but heroic and inspiring?

His only concern was for the people around him. That's kind of heroic.

[xyzzy]

Facinating perhaps but heroic and inspiring?

My only real concern is whether or not it makes a good story, not how heroic it is.

[watsonglenn]

His only concern was for the people around him. That's kind of heroic.

Thats true and I did mention that earlier but it was not enough IMO.

[watsonglenn]

My only real concern is whether or not it makes a good story, not how heroic it is.

To me a good Cap comic has to be heroic by definition. If I want pathos I don't read Cap.

[paper]

To me a good Cap comic has to be heroic by definition. If I want pathos I don't read Cap.'

Just a reflection of the times. Things aren't as black and white as they once were. The whole point of this new direction in the Captain America story is the idea of one man representing heroism and true patriotism not quite fitting in to a very gray world. Can there be a Captain America in this environment in spite of everything? Time will tell.

[the-screw-on-aaron]

'

Just a reflection of the times. Things aren't as black and white as they once were. The whole point of this new direction in the Captain America story is the idea of one man representing heroism and true patriotism not quite fitting in to a very gray world. Can there be a Captain America in this environment in spite of everything? Time will tell.

That's why there is a Captain America he represents everything we should be and that's why he's great, that's why he's my hero.

If that's the reason they killed him off it’s a pretty poor one, he supposed to not fit in this world that's the whole point of the character. If people think it's a bad characteristic then our definition of a hero really has to be rethought.

[labor_days]

To me a good Cap comic has to be heroic by definition. If I want pathos I don't read Cap.
I disagree with this kind of sentiment. Why place arbitrary limits on the way a Captain America comic can be written? Couldn't disagree more with that line of thinking.

re: Supes #75/Cap #25
Doomsday was such an obvious contrivance. Superman's death came off as a marketing ploy. Cap #25 felt like a well written storyline drawn to it's necessary conclusion. The media attention was ancillary to the story.

Brubaker has been setting up the Lukin/Skull thing since issue #1. Remember when Brubaker had the Skull shot through the chest? All bets were off from the start. Even the Civil War tie-ins touched on the Lukin/Skull plot. Gotta believe Brubaker is working toward something great here.

[paper]

That's why there is a Captain America he represents everything we should be and that's why he's great, that's why he's my hero.

If that's the reason they killed him off it’s a pretty poor one, he supposed to not fit in this world that's the whole point of the character. If people think it's a bad characteristic then our definition of a hero really has to be rethought.

It's not supposed to be an easy fight. Maybe it takes Cap dying for other people to realize what he stood for and why his legacy needs to continue. Maybe it takes Cap dying for there to be more people like Cap.

[the-screw-on-aaron]

It's not supposed to be an easy fight. Maybe it takes Cap dying for other people to realize what he stood for and why his legacy needs to continue. Maybe it takes Cap dying for there to be more people like Cap.

That's two points your making.

On your first point maybe you're right it may take killing Cap to have people adopt his values. But on your second point of making other people like him there is only one true Captain America, you can't replace him:) .

[labor_days]

What's wrong with Bucky taking up the mantle of Cap? He's a man out of time just as Rogers was. He's patriotic but seems more of a political realist than Rogers.

Personally, I like the idea of Bucky being the new Cap.

[xyzzy]

To me a good Cap comic has to be heroic by definition. If I want pathos I don't read Cap.

If he's really that one dimensional, maybe he wasn't worth saving, anyway.

[comhcinc]

What's wrong with Bucky taking up the mantle of Cap? He's a man out of time just as Rogers was. He's patriotic but seems more of a political realist than Rogers.

Personally, I like the idea of Bucky being the new Cap.

heh i see one problem with that. do you want a guy named BUCKYrepresenting the best of american values?


Russia will have a field day.....not to mention France. Hell even Canada will giggle.






"Oh NO! it Dr. Doom! We need Captain America!"

"Ya mean Bucky? Ha!Ha!Ha!"

[iSteve]

His full name is James Buchanan "Bucky" Barnes. You can call him James, Jim, Buck, Jimmy Buck... :D

[comhcinc]

....i could see Jimmy Buck hanging out with Duyba.................yeah it just got worst.

Falcon needs to the new Cap. that made up my mind for me

[watsonglenn]

'

Just a reflection of the times. Things aren't as black and white as they once were. The whole point of this new direction in the Captain America story is the idea of one man representing heroism and true patriotism not quite fitting in to a very gray world. Can there be a Captain America in this environment in spite of everything? Time will tell.

Tell me, when were things ever 'black and white.' I hate that phrase.

I don't understand how anyone could see '300' which illustrated a real and meaningful death and then not see the truly pathetic way that Cap was knocked off. I mean the contradiction is striking. Miller knows how to do it. Marvel does not, at least not this time.

[watsonglenn]

I disagree with this kind of sentiment. Why place arbitrary limits on the way a Captain America comic can be written? Couldn't disagree more with that line of thinking.

There are certain ways certain characters have to be portrayed. Sherlock Holmes, James Bond, Superman, Tarzan, Micky Mouse. If the core basic is ignored then the character suffers.

If a writers wants to screw around with a weird version of Superman or Cap then do in in an Elseworld Format. I love those.

[watsonglenn]

Personally, I like the idea of Bucky being the new Cap.

You like the idea of a murderer being Captain America?

[k-dizzle]

Ok watson, we get it. You dont like ANYTHING about the current state of Marvel Comics.

[watsonglenn]

If he's really that one dimensional, maybe he wasn't worth saving, anyway.

And that sentiment is why this issue will be popular with modern fans. I think Cap and the ethos he represents is worth saving. Or if he is going to be killed it must be done better than this.

The truth is Cap is too valuable to die for long. Sooner or later Marvel will make 100s of millions on a Cap movie.

That why Cap/Steve Rogers can't really die. It would cost too much. That makes this fake sad little death even more pathetic.

[watsonglenn]

Ok watson, we get it. You dont like ANYTHING about the current state of Marvel Comics.


That as dumb as me saying "Ok diz we get it you love everything about Marvel."

If you don't want to talk about Cap's death then try another thread. And anyway who is the "we" you're talking about. Are you the board spokesman now?

[k-dizzle]

That as dumb as me saying "Ok diz we get it you love everything about Marvel."

If you don't want to talk about Cap's death then try another thread. And anyway who is the "we" you're talking about. Are you the board spokesman now? yes, yes I am.

[watsonglenn]

yes, yes I am.

Congratulations

[k-dizzle]

Congratulations Thank You!

[labor_days]

There are certain ways certain characters have to be portrayed. Sherlock Holmes, James Bond, Superman, Tarzan, Micky Mouse. If the core basic is ignored then the character suffers.
Ha! But that's preposterous. What you mean to say is characters have traditionally been portrayed in a certain manner. Why shouldn't a Sherlock Holmes or Tarzan be written in a non-traditional way? So long as the story does something interesting using those archetypes, it's irrelevant.

And why as a writer should one feel a slavish devotion to carry on writing the same old characters the same old way? Because readers are comfortable with that? Pssh, how quaint and uninteresting.

Saying, "Oh you can do what ever you want in this little ghetto where it doesn't really count."- just reinforces the same boring status quo.

Cap has "died" many times before. Who really cares if Rogers stays dead or not? Brubaker's storyline is hella good. When all is said and done, it is all that matters.

You like the idea of a murderer being Captain America?
Well, it's a little less than the presidency but it'll have to do.

Seriously, Bucky is the man to take up the mantle of Cap for this era. He has the sensibility, training and the experience. Knowing how to handle a flamethrower doesn't hurt either. ;-)

[jaflanagan]

Disagreement is a beautiful thing, but bickering in the internet should be done at Newsarama.

[jaflanagan]

Watson, did you like Brubaker's Captain America before this?

I'm just curious.

[k-dizzle]

Has CAptain America #25 made Brubaker famous? do you think he will get more money or outstanding writing gigs due to this? I am unaware of anything else he writes aside from comics. does he write for television?

[the-screw-on-aaron]

You know this whole latest debate on Captain America's death here has really changed my mind a bit. At first I was dead set against him being dead (no pun intended) then I realized something.

Since the age of eight to thirteen I had bought Superman comics, back then he was my hero, my idol and there aren't many characters like that anymore Cap was one of the few. We have more antae heroes than ever particularly with the Civil War and Cap was one of the few who still stood for something I believed in.

Then I realized why I stopped reading those Superman comics? It wasn't because I still didn't believe in the character. No, it was because the stories started to become crap:confused: ! I was older now and the stories were going nowhere so I dropped my hero and a comics altogether. Until my resurgence back around when Hellboy came out and started reading the Hellboy books which had a great story:D !

That's why with his death I say thank God! Thank God we have a great story for this death and this character that we can have such strong feelings for him. I survived through one heroes death I can survive another:) .

[watsonglenn]

Ha! But that's preposterous. What you mean to say is characters have traditionally been portrayed in a certain manner. Why shouldn't a Sherlock Holmes or Tarzan be written in a non-traditional way? So long as the story does something interesting using those archetypes, it's irrelevant.

Because these character are timeless. They represent something rare and successful. Coming along and changing an already proven archetype is just vanity and 99% of the time it won't work. The bottom line is this writer was not good enough to change and or destroy something thats older then he is.

And why as a writer should one feel a slavish devotion to carry on writing the same old characters the same old way? Because readers are comfortable with that? Pssh, how quaint and uninteresting.

Because the original character worked better than anything Bendis or Quesada will ever create. To think one can improve on such a successful idea by changing its nature is hubris and doomed.


Cap has "died" many times before. Who really cares if Rogers stays dead or not?

I care.

[watsonglenn]

Watson, did you like Brubaker's Captain America before this?

I'm just curious.

Yes, I loved it.

[xyzzy]

In my opinion, the general attitude that nothing should ever change is one of the major factors holding big 2 superhero comics back.

[fred]

Disagreement is a beautiful thing, but bickering in the internet should be done at Newsarama.

Arguing on the internet is like running the 100M dash in the Special Olympics
Even if you win, you're still retarded

[watsonglenn]

In my opinion, the general attitude that nothing should ever change is one of the major factors holding big 2 superhero comics back.


In my opinion the attitude that proven character concepts must be revamped by less talented modern creators is what has led to the relatively small comic book audience of today.

Marvel hit the jackpot with characters like Spider-man, a high school nerd with superpowers and girl troubles. Every move away from that proven archetypes hurts Marvel IMO.

If a company or writers think they can improve on a character ok, give it a try but usually they are going to fail.

Did the Clone Saga teach up nothing.

There is only one major characters Marvel has come up with since Stan Lee and Jack Kirby left who has made an impression on the larger culture, Wolverine. This is no slight on Marvel. Its hard to create a really good character. Very Hard. Its easier and cheaper to take an existing character and "Modernize" him. But in so doing they screw up the original proven success with a watered down version.

I say again, if a company wants to experiment with a character and change him in a major way do it in an Elseworld format like the Ultimates. But don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg, or if you are going to kill the goose make sure you get more out of it than an afternoon on NPR.

[watsonglenn]

Arguing on the internet is like running the 100M dash in the Special Olympics Even if you win, you're still retarded

Pot meet kettle.

[xyzzy]

In my opinion the attitude that proven character concepts must be revamped by less talented modern creators is what has led to the relatively small comic book audience of today.

Marvel hit the jackpot with characters like Spider-man, a high school nerd with superpowers and girl troubles. Every move away from that proven archetypes hurts Marvel IMO.

If a company or writers think they can improve on a character ok, give it a try but usually they are going to fail.

Did the Clone Saga teach up nothing.

There is only one major characters Marvel has come up with since Stan Lee and Jack Kirby left who has made an impression on the larger culture, Wolverine. This is no slight on Marvel. Its hard to create a really good character. Very Hard. Its easier and cheaper to take an existing character and "Modernize" him. But in so doing they screw up the original proven success with a watered down version.

I say again, if a company wants to experiment with a character and change him in a major way do it in an Elseworld format like the Ultimates. But don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg, or if you are going to kill the goose make sure you get more out of it than an afternoon on NPR.

If Spider-man doesn't grow and evolve, he's boring. There's no drama, no tension in a story where the protagonist never changes. It has nothing to do with modernizing and everything to do with real characterization.

[labor_days]

Because these character are timeless. They represent something rare and successful. Coming along and changing an already proven archetype is just vanity and 99% of the time it won't work. The bottom line is this writer was not good enough to change and or destroy something thats older then he is.With all due respect- that is just ridiculous. The "sacred cow" mentality only leads to creative dead ends and stagnation over time. It's true of all creative fields.

What writer would want to be constrained by such an arbitrary set of rules? Those that are content to churn out stories & characters written in the same old way are simply called hacks.

Because the original character worked better than anything Bendis or Quesada will ever create. To think one can improve on such a successful idea by changing its nature is hubris and doomed.I respectfully disagree here too.

I'm willing to give good writers like Bendis or Burbaker the freedom to play with these works of fiction. In the interest that good storylines will come out of it. If they screw it up, no biggie. The next writer can hit the reset button all the same.

It seems like you want things to snap back to the early days of Cap and that just doesn't cut it anymore. It's fine if one enjoys that sort of thing but the general apathy for Captain America before Brubaker took the reins speaks to how creatively bankrupt this "timeless" character had become.

When was the last time the general public were even excited about Cap? I choose to see Cap #25 as a good thing. It moves the Captain America title in new directions and gives a talented writer room to take the title there.


(I don't think this thread has devolved to petty bickering just yet. Nothing wrong with a little disagreement or debate. But let's all keep in mind we're talking about comic books read for enjoyment here.)

[jaflanagan]

Yes, I loved it.

Then, why not give the creator some credit, step back and watch the story unfold? You don't know the story. You only know the very beginning of the story. We don't know anything about what's happened, but rather what seems to have happened.

And since Brubaker has proven himself time and time and time and time again, let the story unfold. At the end, you can say, that sucked. But what if it was all proven to be a ruse of some kind (which would suck)?

[aleks07]

Then, why not give the creator some credit, step back and watch the story unfold? You don't know the story. You only know the very beginning of the story. We don't know anything about what's happened, but rather what seems to have happened.

And since Brubaker has proven himself time and time and time and time again, let the story unfold. At the end, you can say, that sucked. But what if it was all proven to be a ruse of some kind (which would suck)?

True. No doubt Brubaker will provide a strong storyline in "his" title but what will stop the other titles jumping in to complicate/muddle the story?

We have seen this in the past..

- The infamous Clone Saga. Look at the Amazing Spider-man storyline alone, DeMatteis provided a great saga for the downfall for Peter and introduction of Ben Reilly. Yet the other titles just made the tone very inconsistent and it went off on a tangent.

- The Death of Superman. In my opinion Jurgens pulled it off but the other titles with all the other supermen!??! This happened with the death of 'frank castle as well'... Remember the female Punisher? ;)

We are talking about Bucky being Cap and now Frank Castle doing his version (http://www.newsarama.com/movies/Hellboy/Iron/889new_storyimage3793928_full.jpg) ?

Are we going down the same path of the late 90s? I'm willing to give it a shot and will plunk the $$$ down but it's worth doing some pre-analysis on which path Marvel will go down.

[drwally]

This is where I step in and say both sides are right, and both sides are wrong, and I am right in the middle. I have great admiration for Brubaker and what "new" things younger artists do with old characters. So that puts me on one side. On the other side, I have to argree with Glenn that you have to recognize that a truly gigantic number of characters have survived for very good reasons, because people have been careful not to "mess" with them too much, and bad versions of characters and bad new characters hit the obscurity bucket pretty quick.

However, I must say, with all due respect, that there are many members on this forum, including the distinguished Mr. Flanigan, who are a little too young to recognize the pretty old wells that Mr. Brubaker is drawing from. Yes, much of what he is doing may look new to you, but to those of us that have read the same OLD comics he no doubt has, it looks all too familiar. He has just taken some pretty old things, written it in a more sophisticated manner, and the young kids go,

"WOW, how fresh and 'new' that is..."

BKR was as much a return to the roots of Batman, as much as it was some "new thing," and Miller's "new take" on the character (taking him back to his roots) lasted for a very long time, and still has a huge impact. And Tim Drake Robin: How much of that is Nightwing, and how much of that is Dick Grayson from decades ago? And The Spirit, and New Frontiers, and... JSA anybody? And Ultimate Spidermand is a "new thing" because it...is a reinvention of the character? Which one lasted longer? USM or The Ultimates? Point made yet?

I will say what makes Brubaker different than say...JMS? Is that Brubaker has more love, admiration, and respect for the old material, and has the ability to see what should be tweaked, and what should be left alone. The difference between a bad or mediocre writer who lasts a few years and a great writer who lasts for decades is simple - their ability to understand they should not and do not have the power to reinvent the wheel. They just adjust it to fit the new zeigeist.

Difference between other versions of Doom, and Brubaker: Brubaker didn't forget Boris. Do you know who that is? Take another look, or if you are too young, never mind. Kirby created Boris, and Boris in "Books of Doom" is the reason for the whole story, but did you catch that? Ending: Total EC Comics, circa 1950s, worthy of when Ditko did horror comics. Did you know Ditko did horror before Spiderman? Great stuff.

Hail Hyrda. You kids are wonderful in your youth, live it while you can.

[mikegraham6]

Because these character are timeless. They represent something rare and successful. Coming along and changing an already proven archetype is just vanity and 99% of the time it won't work. The bottom line is this writer was not good enough to change and or destroy something thats older then he is.

I think that Brubaker has proven that he is one of the best writers working on superhero books right now and he has the cred to make changes when a character wasn't working before hand. They are right when they said no one cared about cap before Brubaker, you might have, but look at the sales, no cared about him until he was written well. killing the character isn't a change its a plot device (i think that's proven by the link which showed his numerous deaths). we haven't even seen if someone will take up the mantle yet, its all been our speculation. if your upset at the idea of cap being replaced by bucky or by punisher, dont be. IT HASN"T HAPPEND YET! and if it does happen, read it and see if its done properly. or don't, i dont care. im gonna enjoy this ride that brubaker has started to take us on and i have enough faith that he wont crash the car.

[labor_days]

This is where I step in and say both sides are right, and both sides are wrong, and I am right in the middle. I have great admiration for Brubaker and what "new" things younger artists do with old characters. So that puts me on one side. On the other side, I have to argree with Glenn that you have to recognize that a truly gigantic number of characters have survived for very good reasons, because people have been careful not to "mess" with them too much, and bad versions of characters and bad new characters hit the obscurity bucket pretty quick.

DKR was as much a return to the roots of Batman, as much as it was some "new thing," and Miller's "new take" on the character (taking him back to his roots) lasted for a very long time, and still has a huge impact. And Tim Drake Robin: How much of that is Nightwing, and how much of that is Dick Grayson from decades ago? And The Spirit, and New Frontiers, and... JSA anybody? And Ultimate Spidermand is a "new thing" because it...is a reinvention of the character? Which one lasted longer? USM or The Ultimates? Point made yet?

I will say what makes Brubaker different than say...JMS? Is that Brubaker has more love, admiration, and respect for the old material, and has the ability to see what should be tweaked, and what should be left alone. The difference between a bad or mediocre writer who lasts a few years and a great writer who lasts for decades is simple - their ability to understand they should not and do not have the power to reinvent the wheel. They just adjust it to fit the new zeigeist.Very good and valid points, DrWally. But I don't think anyone is wholly advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater either. Only that an occasional shake up is refreshing from time to time. As you know, it's happened many, many times before. At the end of the day I still want my Cap kicking ppl in the face.

However, I take umbrage with the line of thought that says, "No. This is the way characters should be written". That sort of rigidity does nothing for creativity.

Your logic regarding the Ultimate line doesn't quite work though. The Ultimate line is clearly not a "new thing". They are an purposeful retelling of Marvel's properties free of the baggage of 616. And The Ultimates book itself may as well take place in entirely different continuity from USM, UFF, etc.

[conorkilpatrick]

- The Death of Superman. In my opinion Jurgens pulled it off but the other titles with all the other supermen!??! This happened with the death of 'frank castle as well'... Remember the female Punisher? ;)

Those were great stories, the four Superman. And they gave us great characters in Steel and Superboy.

We are talking about Bucky being Cap and now Frank Castle doing his version (http://www.newsarama.com/movies/Hellboy/Iron/889new_storyimage3793928_full.jpg) ?

It's all just speculation at this point, no one knows what is going to happen, but I personally think it might be interesting. It's all in the execution. Again, we don't know if this is what is going to happen.

[tavella]

Then I realized why I stopped reading those Superman comics? It wasn't because I still didn't believe in the character. No, it was because the stories started to become crap:confused: ! I was older now and the stories were going nowhere so I dropped my hero and a comics altogether. Until my resurgence back around when Hellboy came out and started reading the Hellboy books which had a great story:D !

That's why with his death I say thank God! Thank God we have a great story for this death and this character that we can have such strong feelings for him. I survived through one heroes death I can survive another:) .

But the current Captain America run *wasn't* crap. In fact, it was the best (IMHO) combination of writing and art the series had ever had. Brubaker had both reached back and moved forward; he reconnected Rogers to his roots as a real soldier in ways that the series hadn't done convincingly in *years*, and he moved him forward as a SHIELD agent, working within the world of espionage and intrigue. And the lovely Epting art with the muted color palette, and the brilliant daring of bringing back Bucky and MAKING IT WORK... oh, it's been glorious.

I was delighting in it, it was selling solidly, 40-50K, very respectable for a solo title these days, so I was in no danger of having it cancelled under me (unlike nearly every other title I love!) And then Marvel editorial jumped into the middle of my lovely, secure title and kicked it to death with their stompy crossover boots, and it pisses me off.

Yes, Brubaker said he had the Red Skull's revenge plotline in mind for a while, but he also said he had to move it up. Which means there are a whole bunch of great Steve Rogers stories I will never see. I love Cap's supporting cast, I think it's about the best one at Marvel right now, but they are not why I buy the book.

The fact that at some point, somewhere in the future, someone will convince an editor to do their The Return of Steve Rogers story is not actually a comfort. The possibility of a return, possibly good, possibly crappy, years in the future does not make up for having a fabulous book taken away from me in the *now*.

[drwally]

Very good and valid points, DrWally. But I don't think anyone is wholly advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater either. Only that an occasional shake up is refreshing from time to time. As you know, it's happened many, many times before. At the end of the day I still want my Cap kicking ppl in the face.

However, I take umbrage with the line of thought that says, "No. This is the way characters should be written". That sort of rigidity does nothing for creativity.

Your logic regarding the Ultimate line doesn't quite work though. The Ultimate line is clearly not a "new thing". They are an purposeful retelling of Marvel's properties free of the baggage of 616. And The Ultimates book itself may as well take place in entirely different continuity from USM, UFF, etc.

I think we are on completely the same page here, and at the end of the day, it comes down to the writer. I think Aleks07 makes a very good point -- one writer doing something big in one book can be very exciting, but when it becomes something that is spread to many titles, you run the risk of going from cool idea, to marketing gimmick, to copying the gimmicky storyline being marketed in all the titles because its being marketed in all the titles, just because, because why? Just because...well, it's "new." This is where fans like Glen are right to have misgivings, we have seen this before. But with a strong EiC, you can keep marketing from trumping good storytelling across the titles, but so far I have heard lots of Quesada marketing and little good to say about CW, and Marvel revenues are actually down, as predicted by people that watch the market (see other thread).

Yes, you are right about The Ultimates Line, but the stand out survivor and favorite is USM, not because it disposed of ALL 616 baggage, but all the baggage in between about 1970 and today. In other words, it actually RETURNED the baggage the character had in its roots and foundations, giving poor young Peter all the baggage he had pre 1970, but I think we probably agree on that.

Again, getting back to roots and foundations, which was when, as you say, Marvel FIRST "shook up" the comics industry, in the early 1960s, not by being new for the sake of being new, but by stretching the potential of the medium and adding a sophistication new to comics more than 40 years ago.

And on that topic, I just want to say to all you wonderful, young Brubaker fans, you kids that just love him shaking up the comics industry with all his new, new stuff, please take a moment to consider another guy that did the same (and was no doubt consumed by a very young kid named Eddie back in the day):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Steranko

Roy Thomas:
"I think Jim (Steranko)'s legacy to Marvel was demonstrating that there were ways in which the Kirby style could be mutated, and many artists went off increasingly in their own directions after that."

Add Wally Wood, Bond girls, and 60s zipper suits...

But what has that to do with Brubaker?
"The three-page opening sequence of Captain America (2004 series) #23 (Dec. 2006) is a panel-by-panel homage to writer-artist Steranko's Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. #1 (June 1968)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Steranko

Nothing better than old becoming new again, FRESH and vital...

[watsonglenn]

If Spider-man doesn't grow and evolve, he's boring. There's no drama, no tension in a story where the protagonist never changes. It has nothing to do with modernizing and everything to do with real characterization.

I see your point but look around. The Spider Man that was the most popular in comics was the original. The current one, who is much less popular is barley recognizable." This happened long before Civil War.

The progression from high school nerd to published author and dad married to super model has not brought in more readers. Just the opposite.

While I cannot stand the guy I have to admit John Byrne has it right in this matter. You want Spider-Man to grow up with you, fine. But that means the end of the real Spider Man.

[the-screw-on-aaron]

But the current Captain America run *wasn't* crap. In fact, it was the best (IMHO) combination of writing and art the series had ever had. Brubaker had both reached back and moved forward; he reconnected Rogers to his roots as a real soldier in ways that the series hadn't done convincingly in *years*, and he moved him forward as a SHIELD agent, working within the world of espionage and intrigue. And the lovely Epting art with the muted color palette, and the brilliant daring of bringing back Bucky and MAKING IT WORK... oh, it's been glorious.

I'm sorry,:o I wasn't clear when I said “That's why with his death I say thank God!” I mean his= Captain America.

I think the current Captain America run is brilliant!:D And that's what I mean by thank God we have a brilliant story now as opposed to the days when I lost interest in Superman and that's what's changed my opinion on his death for the better.

I love Captain America and the current Cap Run and I'm not afraid to say it:D .

[xyzzy]

I see your point but look around. The Spider Man that was the most popular in comics was the original. The current one, who is much less popular is barley recognizable." This happened long before Civil War.

The progression from high school nerd to published author and dad married to super model has not brought in more readers. Just the opposite.

While I cannot stand the guy I have to admit John Byrne has it right in this matter. You want Spider-Man to grow up with you, fine. But that means the end of the real Spider Man.

See, as far as I'm concerned, there is no real Spider-man.

You'll never convince me that good storytelling is the downfall of comics. In my opinion, video games, television and other forms of entertainment are what's responsible for the decline in the number of comics sold. Not change.

[watsonglenn]

With all due respect- that is just ridiculous. The "sacred cow" mentality only leads to creative dead ends and stagnation over time. It's true of all creative fields.

What sells more comics. Archie or Savage Dragon. Archie never changes. The Dragon changes every few issues. There is a correlation there.

What writer would want to be constrained by such an arbitrary set of rules? Those that are content to churn out stories & characters written in the same old way are simply called hacks. >>>

Many people write stories about characters they do not own in limited environment. Many many people like soap opera writers, Archie comic writers, Mickey Mouse writers. You might not like it but then when you were 10 you liked Archie and Jughead. Fortunately for the kids today Archie did not grown up with by experiencing a heroine addiction in order to make him more "current." Betty did not get pregnant with Mr Lodge's child. The characters stayed true to their origins and we both outgrew them. Thats natural. Spider Man on the other hand grew up with you and I and as a result he is less popular.

Look at the Ninja Turtles or the Power Rangers. They stayed the same and kids still like them. Now if Morrison or Ellis or Miller came in and made the Turtles gay lovers yeah that might be cool and fun to write for thirty year old fans who like hot turtle love but that deserts the core Turtle audience which is not one specific generation but several generations of the same age rotating in and rotating out.

I'm willing to give good writers like Bendis or Burbaker the freedom to play with these works of fiction. In the interest that good storylines will come out of it. If they screw it up, no biggie. The next writer can hit the reset button all the same.

I am too but the reality is that most people are not. You want proof. Look at the size of the comic market today compared with 20 or 30 years ago.

It seems like you want things to snap back to the early days of Cap and that just doesn't cut it anymore. It's fine if one enjoys that sort of thing but the general apathy for Captain America before Brubaker took the reins speaks to how creatively bankrupt this "timeless" character had become.

I think a writer can write good stories and stay true to the character.

When was the last time the general public were even excited about Cap?

Never. And they are not excited now. They were for 5 minutes last Wednesday and they might be again if a good movie comes out.

[watsonglenn]

Then, why not give the creator some credit, step back and watch the story unfold? You don't know the story. You only know the very beginning of the story. We don't know anything about what's happened, but rather what seems to have happened. And since Brubaker has proven himself time and time and time and time again, let the story unfold. At the end, you can say, that sucked. But what if it was all proven to be a ruse of some kind (which would suck)?

I read over a hundred issue of Civil War related material. I have read Cap since forever. At what point am I allowed to make a statement on its quality.

The thing with comics is they never end. You say wait for the 'end' and then decide. Ok, when will that 'end' be? After the Initiative? Should I keep my mouth shut until then?

Comics stories are only as good at their last issue. If its good I'll say so. If it bad I'll say so. But I ow;t wait until a never ending story ends. That's crazy.

[paper]

I think a writer can write good stories and stay true to the character.





There's a reason the "doggy-paddle" isn't an olympic event.

I think it's very easy to criticize this new turn, but what would you have done if you were handed the reigns to this series? Specifically.

[watsonglenn]

No doubt Brubaker will provide a strong storyline in "his" title but what will stop the other titles jumping in to complicate/muddle the story?

I'm not sure when it was decided Brubaker would always come through in the end but to my mind there is a great deal of doubt. A great deal.

[drwally]

I see your point but look around. The Spider Man that was the most popular in comics was the original. The current one, who is much less popular is barley recognizable." This happened long before Civil War.

The progression from high school nerd to published author and dad married to super model has not brought in more readers. Just the opposite.

While I cannot stand the guy I have to admit John Byrne has it right in this matter. You want Spider-Man to grow up with you, fine. But that means the end of the real Spider Man.

I agree 100%, but three words: "Ultimate Spider Man" : This is the Spider Man you are talking about. Three more words: "Brian Michael Bendis," the guy that made it happen. A concept is just that: A concept. An amorphous idea. You are very right, but in the end, it just comes down to one thing: "Execution of the concept."

Brubaker gets props, JMS and others on Spiderman (616) does not. And I agree with Aaron, in the sense that Brubaker is totally chanelling Steranko chanelling Kirby and Wally Wood, with a good deal of other elements thrown into the mix to make that "concept of Captain America from the past" (at his best of times) relevant to today and damn good comics, just like Steranko did in his day with Kirby and Simon's original creation. Even Kirby tinkered with his original character to bring it up to date. Concepts are fine, but when the rubber hits the road, or rather the pencil and pen hits the paper, those "core concepts" need to be more than just ambiguous ideals.

[watsonglenn]

I think it's very easy to criticize this new turn, but what would you have done if you were handed the reigns to this series? Specifically.

I think it very easy for you to "support" this new turn. Actually, neither position is hard.

Now it is hard to write comics. You need talent and perseverance. I'm a history teacher. Thats hard too. If I screw up people tell me so. They might be wrong, they might be right. If someone wants to offer me a job writing Captain America I might take a shot.

But since you asked I would have Cap fight terrorists and super villains. I would stage dramatic fight scenes and tender but brief love scenes. I would have Cap jump out of airplanes and dodge bullets. He would suffer short term defeats but ultimately win out over enormous odds.

If the editor would let me I would have Cap laugh in the face of any woman who complained that he did not know the latest American Idol winner. I would have Cap take the woman along as he fought Galactus or Thanos.

I know this leaves out all the cool issue like racism, the Patiot Act and homosexuality that makes comics so great but you asked.

[drwally]

There's a reason the "doggy-paddle" isn't an olympic event.

I think it's very easy to criticize this new turn, but what would you have done if you were handed the reigns to this series? Specifically.

Here is Glen's misgiving -- even if he tossed all his CW concerns out the window, the fact remains that JMS and Brubaker have the same employer. If Brubaker left Marvel, and JMS took over the title, you just might find yourself in the line to doggy paddle JMS or somebody else along with Glen. Again, it's not the concept, its the execution of the concept, and what Kirby and Steranko did to Cap in the 60s (except kill him, and Kirby killed a few in his day) was as big a change in direction in the character as Brubaker, if not more so. At least Brubaker is in touch with the gold standard Cap versions of the past, i.e. Steranko and Kirby. If Brubaker left Marvel and Cap, who here would vote for JMS taking over the book, or the guy that brought back Captain Marvel in "The Return" in CW?

I thought not.

This I think is the source of Glen's misgivings. I think Glen, you just need to separate "character" from "writer." If you don't like Cap now, you probably would not like Cap when Steranko and Kirby did him in the 60s, so there goes your "core character" argument as Kirby created Cap way back in the 40s out the window. If the original creator is not allowed to tinker with the character, who can? I would suggest a change of buying habits rather than the doggie paddle. Let go, save some money, and get stuff you enjoy. I do it all the time with great delight.

[watsonglenn]

I agree 100%, but three words: "Ultimate Spider Man" : This is the Spider Man you are talking about. Three more words: "Brian Michael Bendis," the guy that made it happen. A concept is just that: A concept. An amorphous idea. You are very right, but in the end, it just comes down to one thing: "Execution of the concept."

With respect I disagree. Bendis did not make Ultimate Spider man happen. Stan lee made Ultimate Spider Man happen. Taking 20 year old stories, tweaking them and slapping 'ultimate' on the front is not creativity. The concept is what sells. In the case of Ultimate Spider Man even the stories are copies.

My proof?

If Bendis tries selling the same book and calls it 'Ultimate Beetle Boy' it last three issues.

[paper]

As a history teacher, how do you feel about the definition of your branch of study as "the study of change?" Do you see that as being accurate, or is that off track?

If that sounds like a loaded question, maybe it is. While much of the concepts you discussed above did, indeed, sound like a Captain America book, it wasn't really a pitch. You did express that comic book writing was not your arena, and that it was a difficult thing, but you have been offering intelligent commentary on this issue, and you probably might be a bigger Cap fan than most of us. But I can't help but feel that the proposal you're offering is pretty safe. And safe doesn't really sell books (financially or in terms of reader interest). It sounds like a book I might pick up irregularly.

I guess my question is this. How do you build a dedicated, long-term fanbase (a practice I'd argue to be based on suspense and risk) while still holding onto the traditional representation of this character?

[paper]

I know this leaves out all the cool issue like racism, the Patiot Act and homosexuality that makes comics so great but you asked.

It is difficult--maybe absurd--to ignore the theme of "man-out-of-time" in the story of Steve Rogers. While struggles with anachronism and modern cultural issues shouldn't permeate into the storyline every issue, (or even every other issue) the series might be as ideal a venue to discuss topical events as any comic. Granted, a lot of these topics are abused these days, but I think it's pretty understandable, what with the comic book industry's constant struggle to remain relevent in a media soaked society.

The man did fight Nazis back in the day...

[drwally]

As a history teacher, how do you feel about the definition of your branch of study as "the study of change?" Do you see that as being accurate, or is that off track?

If that sounds like a loaded question, maybe it is. While much of the concepts you discussed above did, indeed, sound like a Captain America book, it wasn't really a pitch. You did express that comic book writing was not your arena, and that it was a difficult thing, but you have been offering intelligent commentary on this issue, and you probably might be a bigger Cap fan than most of us. But I can't help but feel that the proposal you're offering is pretty safe. And safe doesn't really sell books (financially or in terms of reader interest). It sounds like a book I might pick up irregularly.

I guess my question is this. How do you build a dedicated, long-term fanbase (a practice I'd argue to be based on suspense and risk) while still holding onto the traditional representation of this character?

I would also add that the sales figures for CW, which you mention in the same breath as Cap, are not all that they are hyped up to be, unlike Cap, which currently has been selling very well during Brubaker's tenure. You mentioned some characterizations of Cap from CW, but mixed that with Brubaker's work. As you think about Paper's excellent question, remember as a writer, you will have an Editor and Chief and at least a half dozen others issuing memos about what you can and cannot do...

And as for topics you would prefer not to be in your comics, this reprepresents (and I apologize for maybe hitting a nerve) a shrinking portion of the population that even the once mighty Republican party commanded, a party now lost, splintered, and rudderless. Fox News is losing 20%+ of its ratings share. Young people are flocking to Comedy Central programs like Colbert that deals with these topics regularly.

What good is a character going "safe" if all it does is ensure it gets canceled? And how do you approach those editors that want to expand their market share? I grant you, CW was a pretty poor treatment of America at a major crossroads, and deserved a more balaced and fair picture rather than a liberal "screed," but is putting blinders on and wishing for the "good old days" that even Cap creators Joe Simon and Jack Kirby recognized never existed? At time when blacks and second class citizens were second clas citizens and stereotypes, Kirby was creating character after character, defying full on the stereotypes of his time.

Was Kirby, the creator of Cap, who killed Bucky, wrong to do that? Again, Paper's question is valid -- as a history expert myself, I prefer to face the complexities and contraditions head on, not retreat into ideal, warm, and comfy images of "what was," free of troubling questions.

I would suggest you take day and take a look at your previous posts -- you come perisiouly close to making Cap the "ageless Archie and Jughead" that I think you don't like, and the first ghost to rise to scold would be King Kirby himself. And I have back issues here to back me up...

[labor_days]

I think Aleks07 makes a very good point -- one writer doing something big in one book can be very exciting, but when it becomes something that is spread to many titles, you run the risk of going from cool idea, to marketing gimmick, to copying the gimmicky storyline being marketed in all the titles because its being marketed in all the titles, just because, because why?True, true. I could not say you or Glen are wrong here. Given the nature of the industry it would not be unimaginable for Rogers to turn up again or for this to be spun into some crass money grabbing event.

Ultimately, as others have mentioned, we'll have to wait and see where Brubaker takes this storyline. And rather Marvel does Cap fitting justice during Fallen Son.

Yes, you are right about The Ultimates Line, but the stand out survivor and favorite is USM, not because it disposed of ALL 616 baggage, but all the baggage in between about 1970 and today. Yes, I see your point more clearly now. I was speaking to original idea behind the Ultimate line when first launched. No doubt, USM has re-written a great deal of Spidey lore (UXM too). Mostly for the better but it's not like 616 Spidey's history was ever truly erased or followed too strictly, eh? I concede your well reasoned point though.

What sells more comics. Archie or Savage Dragon. Archie never changes. The Dragon changes every few issues. There is a correlation there.Not that sales are completely irrelevant but I'm speaking more so toward artistic value rather than monetary.

Many people write stories about characters they do not own in limited environment. Many many people like soap opera writers, Archie comic writers, Mickey Mouse writers.Hmm, your talking about a writers responsibility to characters they do not own. Which a lot of us can understand being into this comic book thing of ours. We latch on to characters, we may even say; said character wouldn't do this or that, et cetera. Lord knows, a fair amount of internet *****ing revolves around just that.

Yet I can't help but feel like your examples above are intended not to change. I'm 27 years old, grew up reading comics and cheesy pulp fiction. And enjoy it through it's ups & downs a great deal.

But Archie and TMNT is not for me. Because I am not 10 years old and those books never changed. They're static and uninteresting to my sensibilities. A fair amount of comfort may be associated with that sort of thing. Which is fine if one wishes their comics to be predicable and safe. But if comics ever want to be more than just "kid's stuff" one has to allow for things to evolve over time.

You want proof. Look at the size of the comic market today compared with 20 or 30 years ago.

I think this has more to due with competing media and the stigma surrounding medium of comic books.

[watsonglenn]

As a history teacher, how do you feel about the definition of your branch of study as "the study of change?" Do you see that as being accurate, or is that off track?

Its adequate as far as it goes.

While much of the concepts you discussed above did, indeed, sound like a Captain America book, it wasn't really a pitch.

I have no experience in pitching a comic book. But if I did I imagine it would take more time than the five minutes my post to you took.

How do you build a dedicated, long-term fanbase (a practice I'd argue to be based on suspense and risk) while still holding onto the traditional representation of this character?

You don't. If a company wants to maintain big sales on a proven commodity they stick with what works rather than trying to feed the artistic egos of creators who are simply not good enough to really create new and lasting ideas. This is not slight on the writers. Its hard to create truly lasting characters like Cap. Its only been done in comics a few dozen times in the last 100 years.

To create a liong term fanbase the companies must realis that some fans will age out but if the concept is good new fans will join in, only themselves to eventually age out and so on and so on.

On the other hand if a company thinks they can make money selling high priced comics to a small aging fan base then fine. Age the characters. Change them as much as you like. But IMO this is a short term solution.

Comics cannot survive if they don't reach kids and create NEW fans in large numbers. Right now they are not. One of the reason for this is they have thrown away what worked for kids and focused on what works for you and I.

Back to Cap's death. My point is it was cheap. It was not worthy. It was a golden opportunity lost. It could have been the Death of Superman, the Death of Phoenix, the death of the Flash. Instead it was a sad artsy little death. The kind NPR loves but not kids or Cap fans like myself.

This is not to say the rest of you are not Cap fans. I'm sure you are. Its just my feelings on the subject.

[mikegraham6]

Its adequate as far as it goes.



I have no experience in pitching a comic book. But if I did I imagine it would take more time than the five minutes my post to you took.



You don't. If a company wants to maintain big sales on a proven commodity they stick with what works rather than trying to feed the artistic egos of creators who are simply not good enough to really create new and lasting ideas. This is not slight on the writers. Its hard to create truly lasting characters like Cap. Its only been done in comics a few dozen times in the last 100 years.

To create a liong term fanbase the companies must realis that some fans will age out but if the concept is good new fans will join in, only themselves to eventually age out and so on and so on.

On the other hand if a company thinks they can make money selling high priced comics to a small aging fan base then fine. Age the characters. Change them as much as you like. But IMO this is a short term solution.

Comics cannot survive if they don't reach kids and create NEW fans in large numbers. Right now they are not. One of the reason for this is they have thrown away what worked for kids and focused on what works for you and I.

Back to Cap's death. My point is it was cheap. It was not worthy. It was a golden opportunity lost. It could have been the Death of Superman, the Death of Phoenix, the death of the Flash. Instead it was a sad artsy little death. The kind NPR loves but not kids or Cap fans like myself.

This is not to say the rest of you are not Cap fans. I'm sure you are. Its just my feelings on the subject.

would you have enjoyed his death better if it had happened at the end of the manhattan battle in civil war #7? that would have more of an epic scale

[watsonglenn]

I would also add that the sales figures for CW, which you mention in the same breath as Cap, are not all that they are hyped up to be, unlike Cap, which currently has been selling very well during Brubaker's tenure. You mentioned some characterizations of Cap from CW, but mixed that with Brubaker's work. As you think about Paper's excellent question, remember as a writer, you will have an Editor and Chief and at least a half dozen others issuing memos about what you can and cannot do...

I'm sure comic creators have pressures and difficulties I don't understand. Frankly I don't care. The excuse that the "editor made me do it," does not wash. I'm not calling for any one's head. I'm saying that IMO this was not a well done death for a character like Cap. I don't have to wait till the end of The Initiative or know the inner workings of the Bullpen to say that.

Young people are flocking to Comedy Central programs like Colbert that deals with these topics regularly. >>>

And they all know who won the last American Idol competition too so maybe your right. Maybe coms are just one publicity stunt after another and Marvel should eat their young to survive.

And how do you approach those editors that want to expand their market share?

I would ask them how they want to expand it? Into what age group?

Kirby was creating character after character, defying full on the stereotypes of his time.>>>

And he succeed by reaching an audience with real wholesome emotion and power. He dedicated his life to it. He suffered for his art. And he died bitter and poor. That might be the price for such creativity. Its a price Bendis will never pay. His work will be good and safe and soon forgotten.

Was Kirby, the creator of Cap, who killed Bucky, wrong to do that? Again, Paper's question is valid -- as a history expert myself, I prefer to face the complexities and contradictions head on, not retreat into ideal, warm, and comfy images of "what was," free of troubling questions.

Lets not confuse comics with real life. In history I see the different side and the contradictions. Some comics can do that too. But in fiction in order to create lasting characters like Batman or Superman a core concept that is clear and powerful must be created. Messing with that core usually does not work in the long term.

[watsonglenn]

But Archie and TMNT is not for me. Because I am not 10 years old and those books never changed. They're static and uninteresting to my sensibilities. A fair amount of comfort may be associated with that sort of thing. Which is fine if one wishes their comics to be predicable and safe. But if comics ever want to be more than just "kid's stuff" one has to allow for things to evolve over time.

You are right of course. I don't like Ninja Turtles either and for the same reasons. But the business model of Eastman is to stick with a certain age group not a certain generation as it ages the way Marvel and to a lesser extent DC do.

Marvel has tried to stick with us as we age and it has done so very well I guess. But, if Marvel wants us to love Captain America, the kick ass never say die patriot then why kill him in such a depressing way. To me it was a missed opportunity

I realise my position that it was a bad death is not held by many and that surprised me a little but its my position and I put it out there and tried to defend it.

We sort of got off topic but I still say the death could have been done better. It should have been done better.

[mikegraham6]

And he succeed by reaching an audience with real wholesome emotion and power. He dedicated his life to it. He suffered for his art. And he died bitter and poor. That might be the price for such creativity. Its a price Bendis will never pay. His work will be good and safe and soon forgotten.

i have a funny feeling that bendis' work wont be soon forgotten, if anything he'll be remembered as being one of the few creators who breathed fresh air into the superhero comic medium. his writting style is one of the main reasons thousands of former comic fans who left, fed up with the 90s money grab, returned to the medium to discover its new and more complex writting style and depth of character.
i think you should give credit where credit is due. Bendis will definitely be remembered if only for bringing most of us back into comics

[watsonglenn]

would you have enjoyed his death better if it had happened at the end of the manhattan battle in civil war #7? that would have more of an epic scale

Yes.

And that brings up a point. Why not kill Cap at the end of Civil War? That was the logical place.

I'll tell you why. Sales. DC wanted to sell one more comics.

Civil War #7 left many of us disappointed. It was not a good ending. It needed something dramatic and I'm sorry but surrendering is not and never will be dramatic. Civil War did make history in one way. Its the first mini series in history to end with the hero surrendering in disgrace. And Marvel thinks we like that!

Its like DC killing Supergirl in a special one shot instead of issue 9 of Crisis. Oh that's right they did not do that. They killed her in the place where it made the most sense. She died like she lived fighting for others and she did so heroically. Fans still remember it.

So lets not pretend this death has anything to do with the artistic sensibilities of modern creators.

[mikegraham6]

Yes.

And that brings up a point. Why not kill Cap at the end of Civil War? That was the logical place.

I'll tell you why. Sales. DC wanted to sell one more comics.

Civil War #7 left many of us disappointed. It was not a good ending. It needed something dramatic and I'm sorry but surrendering is not and never will be dramatic. Civil War did make history in one way. Its the first mini series in history to end with the hero surrendering in disgrace. And Marvel thinks we like that!

Its like DC killing Supergirl in a special one shot instead of issue 9 of Crisis. Oh that's right they did not do that. They killed her in the place where it made the most sense. She died like she lived fighting for others and she did so heroically. Fans still remember it.

So lets not pretend this death has anything to do with the artistic sensibilities of modern creators.

i agree that the death would have made more sense at the end of CW7 but by putting in cap's own title i was actually surprised by the fact that he was killed. we all thought that cap (or someone significant) was going to die at the end of civil war and while it would have been the logical place to put it, marvel decided instead to put it in the more than capable hands of mr brubaker, who i do think did an excellent job. their was strong emotional impact felt through the supporting cast, that couldn't have been reached had marvel put it in CW.

[watsonglenn]

i think you should give credit where credit is due. Bendis will definitely be remembered if only for bringing most of us back into comics

Most of who? When did you leave? Who has come back? There are no significant numbers to support this stance. Bendis is good, he is adequate. He is fine. But he is not Stan Lee or Jack Kirby.

He writes good stories but he does not create new characters of any significance. Instead he changes and alters characters that already exist. Heck even John Byrne can do that.

I don't want to put Bendis down. Any man who takes care of his family and does not scare the horses is fine with me but has has not changed comics in any lasting way.

[mikegraham6]

Most of who? When did you leave? Who has come back? There are no significant numbers to support this stance. Bendis is good, he is adequate. He is fine. But he is not Stan Lee or Jack Kirby.

He writes good stories but he does not create new characters of any significance. Instead he changes and alters characters that already exist. Heck even John Byrne can do that.

I don't want to put Bendis down. Any man who takes care of his family and does not scare the horses is fine with me but has has not changed comics in any lasting way.

you ever read his letters page in powers? or any comic discussions forums? even the letters page in wizard. 50% of the time, people who mention they have left comics, say they have returned due to being introduced to a bendis comic. USM was a significant turning point for comics. it marks a point were the comic industry became less artist focused and more writer focused, thus giving us better stories.

[k-dizzle]

50% of the time, people who mention they have left comics, say they have returned due to being introduced to a bendis comic. I came back to comics because of Bendis. Bendis is the shizzle.

[mikegraham6]

I came back to comics because of Bendis. Bendis is the shizzle.

same, k-dizzle!

[paper]

I came back to comics because of Bendis. Bendis is the shizzle.

Same here. I bought the first Ultimate Spidey hardcover and the first New Avengers trade. There was no turning back.

You could say Bendis saved my marriage. You'd be slightly off because I'm not married, but I'd nod in agreement anyway.

[k-dizzle]

Same here. I bought the first Ultimate Spidey hardcover and the first New Avengers trade. There was no turning back.

You could say Bendis saved my marriage. You'd be slightly off because I'm not married, but I'd nod in agreement anyway.Brian Michael Bendis saved my life, he saved rock’n’roll.

[paper]

Brian Michael Bendis saved my life, he saved rock’n’roll.

But he couldn't save Cap. Did you see the bald guy in the crowd?

[mikegraham6]

so what do you guys think? will Bendis be remembered in the comics industry 20 years from now? i say yes...
he's just as much of an architect of the modern marvel as stan lee was in the classic marvel u

[paper]

so what do you guys think? will Bendis be remembered in the comics industry 20 years from now? i say yes...
he's just as much of an architect of the modern marvel as stan lee was in the classic marvel u

Yes. Architect is the perfect word for it.

His work with Maleev ought to be the stuff of legend too. And I want to say that the upcoming Daredevil mini they're doing will only add to that, but I don't want to jinx it. Pun intended. Obviously.

[conorkilpatrick]

USM was a significant turning point for comics. it marks a point were the comic industry became less artist focused and more writer focused, thus giving us better stories.

I love Bendis and USM was significant but that is simply not true. That revolution started with Vertigo and really came into being with Marvel Knights.

[mikegraham6]

I love Bendis and USM was significant but that is simply not true. That revolution started with Vertigo and really came into being with Marvel Knights.

i would argue that it was mainstreamed this type of comic though. your right that those books existed before USM but it was the most sucessful book to adopt this new philosophy. think about the risk marvel ran by putting a relative unknown (at the time) on what could possible be a huge financial sucess for them.
i agree that USM wasn't the first but really, neither was vertigo. it popularized strong storytelling early but not in superhero books. the history of marvel knights i am not as familiar with though....

[conorkilpatrick]

i agree that USM wasn't the first but really, neither was vertigo. it popularized strong storytelling early but not in superhero books. the history of marvel knights i am not as familiar with though....

Marvel Knights popularized the idea of the writer being more important to the story than the artist. Its success got Quesada the EIC job and allowed for things like USM. But without the huge success of Marvel Knights none of this is happening.

[watsonglenn]

Same here. I bought the first Ultimate Spidey hardcover and the first New Avengers trade. There was no turning back.

You could say Bendis saved my marriage. You'd be slightly off because I'm not married, but I'd nod in agreement anyway.


Arrgg!!! Bendis did not create Spider Man. He took the Spider Man story and put ultimate in front of it. Even the stories are retreads

I repeat arrgg!!

[watsonglenn]

so what do you guys think? will Bendis be remembered in the comics industry 20 years from now? i say yes...
he's just as much of an architect of the modern marvel as stan lee was in the classic marvel u

Are you kidding? I mean come on!

[k-dizzle]

Arrgg!!! Bendis did not create Spider Man. He took the Spider Man story and put ultimate in front of it. Even the stories are retreads

I repeat arrgg!! No, your wrong, because I'm pretty sure Brian 'the man' Bendis did in fact create Spider-Man.

[paper]

Arrgg!!! Bendis did not create Spider Man. He took the Spider Man story and put ultimate in front of it. Even the stories are retreads

I repeat arrgg!!

I never said he created Spider-Man. I will say that he's writing the only entertaining modern versions of him (in regular continuity; I haven't touched the Reign stuff).

You're saying he's a re-mixer, a sampler?

The P-Diddy of comics.

[watsonglenn]

No, your wrong, because I'm pretty sure Brian 'the man' Bendis did in fact create Spider-Man.

Thats right. He did. You were born 27 years ago and everything cool has happened since then.

And Tony Stark was never even in Vietnam. He was injured in the first Gulf War, no wait, the second.

[watsonglenn]

Hey I just made senior member. It was right after a similar honor that I was banned from John Byrne's board.

[k-dizzle]

Thats right. He did. You were born 27 years ago and everything cool has happened since then.

And Tony Stark was never even in Vietnam. He was injured in the first Gulf War, no wait, the second.Actually I was born 31 years ago, but that’s ok, I accept your ignorance to K-Dizzle continuity. Is there a Captain America DVD rom collecting the first 40 years available? If so I will gladly check it out, and get back to you with the exact same opinion I have now.

[watsonglenn]

By the way, I think Ultimate Spider man is great. Especially for people who have never read Spider Man. But I have read these stories before when they were called, wait for it "Amazing Spider Man."

[k-dizzle]

Hey I just made senior member. It was right after a similar honor that I was banned from John Byrne's board.Congratulations, I don’t think you will be banned, you are just very , very, passionate about recent Cap events. And that’s understandable.

[watsonglenn]

Actually I was born 31 years ago, but that’s ok, I accept your ignorance to K-Dizzle continuity. Is there a Captain America DVD rom collecting the first 40 years available? If so I will gladly check it out, and get back to you with the exact same opinion I have now.

I was not counting the first 4 years. You were just a young unemployed punk kid then. You didn't know Iron Man from the Cobalt Man. You thought Krypton was an inert gas and you could not even spell mljonir, moljonir, monjoroeee.

Whatever!

[watsonglenn]

By the way, I think Ultimate Spider man is great. Especially for people who have never read Spider Man. But I have read these stories before when they were called, wait for it "Amazing Spider Man."

The thing is, I'm not sure if you are laughing with me or at me.

[paper]

But it's difficult to enjoy those old Amazings when I know that eventually it will all culminate in a book that I recently burried in my backyard, and when questioned by my neighbors, claimed to be a deceased goldfish.

It's like watching the guy romp playfully with the friendly bears during the early portions of Grizzly Man.

[k-dizzle]

The thing is, I'm not sure if you are laughing with me or at me.A little of both. I have been reading comic books for about 16 years. I took some time off during the crazy Image comics period, but it wasn’t a very long hiatus. I like continuity but it is so screwed up at this point nothing can fix it. I enjoy the new stories as they come out and even though I didn’t like Civil war per say I found Brubaker’s final salute to Captain America fitting. And before you go off on another tangent, but fitting I mean that it sucked….. the events that transpired sucked… but it was written and drawn perfectly.

[watsonglenn]

But it's difficult to enjoy those old Amazings when I know that eventually it will all culminate in a book that I recently burried in my backyard, and when questioned by my neighbors, claimed to be a deceased goldfish. It's like watching the guy romp playfully with the friendly bears during the early portions of Grizzly Man.

Geez Paper, get over this thing you have about Spider Man. You don't see me obsessing over a comic book hero just because he is going through a few changes.

[k-dizzle]

Geez Paper, get over this thing you have about Spider Man. You don't see me obsessing over a comic book hero just because he is going through a few changes. You are AWESOME>......:)

[paper]

Geez Paper, get over this thing you have about Spider Man. You don't see me obsessing over a comic book hero just because he is going through a few changes.

I guess I am a bit obsessive. But it's a tragedy of Shakespearian proportions. It's the greatest fall from grace since...sliced bread!

Literally. A loaf of bread divided against itself cannot stand. It just topples over like domino carbs.

[watsonglenn]

I guess I am a bit obsessive. But it's a tragedy of Shakespearian proportions.


You are referring of course to Peter's man crush on Cap, which now that he is unjustly dead is even creepier.

[jaflanagan]

I would offer that Bendis is incredibly important to comics today. He is part of a new class of comic creators who breathed life into comics. While they used the tools created by Stan, Jack, etc, it's important to remember that Marvel was literally bankrupt, and almost done.

Not Bendis alone, but with other modern writers like Ellis, Brubaker, Whedon, Millar, etc, etc, these guys are carrying the cart now.

Because I don't know if you read the last few Stan Lee offerings, but he's not pulling anything these days.

Cuz he's a robot.

[labor_days]

But it's difficult to enjoy those old Amazings when I know that eventually it will all culminate in a book that I recently burried in my backyard, and when questioned by my neighbors, claimed to be a deceased goldfish.
If you say the issue number aloud...it'll come back. /shudder

[watsonglenn]

Because I don't know if you read the last few Stan Lee offerings, but he's not pulling anything these days.

Cuz he's a robot.


Granted Stan Lee is not a good writer anymore.

His work now reminds me of the last few issues put out by Jack Kirby. Awful!

But if we are comparing resumes between Bendis and Lee, well lets get real.

Nobody shodl say they are in the smae league.

Also granted Bendis is younger. Maybe He will create a univers full of icons in time.

[xyzzy]

Granted Stan Lee is not a good writer anymore.

His work now reminds me of the last few issues put out by Jack Kirby. Awful!

But if we are comparing resumes between Bendis and Lee, well lets get real.

Nobody shodl say they are in the smae league.

Also granted Bendis is younger. Maybe He will create a univers full of icons in time.

Frankly, I don't think Stan Lee was ever a great writer. He was a creative guy who was in the right place at the right time. But Bendis or Moore or any of these contemporary guys could write circles around him.

[mikegraham6]

Granted Stan Lee is not a good writer anymore.

His work now reminds me of the last few issues put out by Jack Kirby. Awful!

But if we are comparing resumes between Bendis and Lee, well lets get real.

Nobody shodl say they are in the smae league.

Also granted Bendis is younger. Maybe He will create a univers full of icons in time.

he's created his own universe with powers. although you may not consider two cops icons since they don't wear capes and fly (oh wait maybe now they do....) but i think that book definitely has its own appeal. of course it will never compare to the marvel or dc u but those have been around for over half a century, but the image of deena pilgrim and christian walker drawn by oeming is just as iconic to me as a comic reader. just because a character isn't an icon to you doesn't mean it isn't to someone else.

[mikegraham6]

Frankly, I don't think Stan Lee was ever a great writer. He was a creative guy who was in the right place at the right time. But Bendis or Moore or any of these contemporary guys could write circles around him.

i agree, did you read the just imagine series where stan lee reinvisions the DC U? pure garbage, stan lee could write comics back when little kids read them, not so much now though....:rolleyes:

[paper]

i agree, did you read the just imagine series where stan lee reinvisions the DC U? pure garbage, stan lee could write comics back when little kids read them, not so much now though....:rolleyes:

STAN LEE - Where are you taking me?
BENDIS - A better place.
STAN LEE - Why are there so many old horses out here?
CHO - It's a pasture.
STAN LEE - But I'm still relevant!
BENDIS - ...Did you read your cameo in Thunderbolts?
STAN LEE - What's Thunderbolts?
BENDIS - The name of a current comic book. Ironically, it's also the name of your new roommate. We rescued him from a glue factory.
STAN LEE - I shall call him....Excelsior!
BENDIS - No. No you won't.

[iSteve]

STAN LEE - Where are you taking me?
BENDIS - A better place.
STAN LEE - Why are there so many old horses out here?
CHO - It's a pasture.
STAN LEE - But I'm still relevant!
BENDIS - ...Did you read your cameo in Thunderbolts?
STAN LEE - What's Thunderbolts?
BENDIS - The name of a current comic book. Ironically, it's also the name of your new roommate. We rescued him from a glue factory.
STAN LEE - I shall call him....Excelsior!
BENDIS - No. No you won't.

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!

[drwally]

Granted Stan Lee is not a good writer anymore.

His work now reminds me of the last few issues put out by Jack Kirby. Awful!

But if we are comparing resumes between Bendis and Lee, well lets get real.

Nobody shodl say they are in the smae league.

Also granted Bendis is younger. Maybe He will create a univers full of icons in time.

Glen:

I met Jack Kirby in person at a comic store signing, a few years before he died. He said what he said for many years, that he and Steve Ditko and other artist were the ones responsible for FF, Spiderman, and the whole lot.

"And all Stan Lee did was take the credit, and the money. But we did everything else."

Lee would add in some dialogue that Lee thought "would sound cool to the hip kids of the day," but was really just hokey nonense -- an old man posing as a hipster (Lee at the time was about 40+ years old, and most who worked with him said he was pretty out of touch with things by the late 60s). Kirby said Stan Lee either did nothing or cheapened the work. Steve Ditko said the same thing until some kind of deal was worked out behind closed doors (probably money was exchanged?) and Ditko dropped his claims, just before the first Spiderman movie came out, making Marvel a mint. So, keep in mind that while you heap tons of laudits on Jack Kirby, keep in mind this:

He shared absolutely none of your views. If the Mighty Jew that was Jack Kirby was told, "people should just keep with all the old stuff and not change it," He would be the FIRST to disagree.

And, although he had a pretty cosmic reach to his story telling, he could keep a "coherent thread" to his stories that people could follow. Sorry, I have a problem following your point, other than it's some grandiose declaration having to do with some grandiose something making the point that all old is good and all new is bad, or maybe that's not it...I haven't quite figured out where any of it's going, it just seems like a big crank fest, to be honest.

You mentioned something about Iron Man, first making his armor in Vietman -- do you mean he should be 70+ years old now and fighting communists? I'm not sure what you meant. Maybe the armor designed to prevent the spleen from venting broke down or something...

Kirby also drew tremendous inspiration from Steve Steranko, a new talent of the late 1960s, who brought a big breath of fresh air to Nick Fury and Captain America, and the two working together then is probably why Captain America is still as fresh today as he is now. Kirby got as much from working with the young Steranko as the young Steranko got from the old Kirby, and if you can't see that all homaged to the utmost in Brubaker's Captain America, maybe you should not pose as the expert on the old stuff.

Name just ONE run of Captain America between Steranko/Kirby and Brubaker, that is not a team book, and see how many people run to your banner.

And if you can't tell the difference between a comic written by Bendis, Brubaker and the old stuff from the 60s... again, maybe you should back away from the grandiose statements full of glittering generalities and rhetoric spinning in circles. And good gracious, when you are as bad as not giving Steranko the credit he is due, don't bang on other people. And if yo want to be the Old School Rules guy, at least get your facts straight. When the other Old School Rules guy is also a history buff and respects what young people bring to comics, better be careful you don't fall into a trap.

So tell me Glen, since you are such the BIG expert on Jack Kirby TRADITION, if I said, "How about dressing Steve Rogers as a woman and sending him off to gay Paris," would you say that would "break the tradition of Captain America?"

[mikegraham6]

"tell him, steve-dave"

im not taking sides but it just seemed appropriate:D

[conorkilpatrick]

Kirby also drew tremendous inspiration from Steve Steranko, a new talent of the late 1960s, who brought a big breath of fresh air to Nick Fury and Captain America, and the two working together then is probably why Captain America is still as fresh today as he is now. Kirby got as much from working with the young Steranko as the young Steranko got from the old Kirby, and if you can't see that all homaged to the utmost in Brubaker's Captain America, maybe you should not pose as the expert on the old stuff.

Jim Steranko?

[drwally]

Jim Steranko?

Yes, you little young cheeky child, JIM STERANKO. Brubaker's best work SCREAMS the fact that he's totally channelling JIM STERANKO. Wikipedia much? I'm not saying Brubaker's copying Steranko's collaboration with Kirby on Cap and Nick Fury, I'm saying Brubaker knows the crap from the gold in all that old stuff, and he's chosen to take the gold and mix it in with lots of other stuff, creating a sophisticated new comic that owes as much to the past as his own talent as a writer. The best writers always steal from the best:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Steranko

And Mike is just making as cautious a comment as he can because he totally smells what comes after Glen replies, even though he totally agrees with at least half (or more) of what I'm saying (once bitten, twice shy, eh Mike? The best superheros do learn to be more wary, don't they?)--

On the core tradition of Captain America, Glen, how about it? Steve Rogers, dressed as a woman, in gay Paris. And, I'll even sweeten the pot--In all of the discussion of Fables, how about Bucky dressed as Little Boy Blue?

Well Glen?

[mikegraham6]

And Mike is just making as cautious a comment as he can because he totally smells what comes after Glen replies, even though he totally agrees with at least half (or more) of what I'm saying (once bitten, twice shy, eh Mike? The best superheros do learn to be more wary, don't they?)--

you are a wise one dr.wally (i guess you earned that PHD didn't you:rolleyes: )

i just have these flashes of the torrent thread and the homosexuals in comics thread and i dont want to pour gas on the fire :D

[drwally]

you are a wise one dr.wally (i guess you earned that PHD didn't you:rolleyes: )

i just have these flashes of the torrent thread and the homosexuals in comics thread and i dont want to pour gas on the fire :D

Who said anything about homosexuals in comics? Glen wants a "Return to the Core Character Concept" of Captain America by Jack Kirby, and here I am, just waiting to give him his greatest wish, and merely asking him:

What about Steve Rogers dressed as a woman, in gay Paris, and Bucky dressed as Little Boy Blue? You brought up homosexuals, Mike, I didn't.

Do I have to make that button on my desk I told you about in another thread even bigger, Mike? Go ahead, beg me to push it, you know you want me to...

[conorkilpatrick]

So tell me Glen, since you are such the BIG expert on Jack Kirby TRADITION, if I said, "How about dressing Steve Rogers as a woman and sending him off to gay Paris," would you say that would "break the tradition of Captain America?"

It's Monday morning and I didn't sleep much last night and I am not a huge expert on Kirby so perhaps you could explain this part because I am mystified as to what you mean.

[xyzzy]

It's Monday morning and I didn't sleep much last night and I am not a huge expert on Kirby so perhaps you could explain this part because I am mystified as to what you mean.

Probably this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/chunkyrice/263857964_00ea3536c8.jpg

[mikegraham6]

Who said anything about homosexuals in comics? Glen wants a "Return to the Core Character Concept" of Captain America by Jack Kirby, and here I am, just waiting to give him his greatest wish, and merely asking him:

What about Steve Rogers dressed as a woman, in gay Paris, and Bucky dressed as Little Boy Blue? You brought up homosexuals, Mike, I didn't.

Do I have to make that button on my desk I told you about in another thread even bigger, Mike? Go ahead, beg me to push it, you know you want me to...

im a little lost now wally:confused:
i was refering to the direction that those two threads went in *cough*negative posting*cough*

oh and wally i need a refresher on the button, do tell:D

[mikegraham6]

Probably this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/chunkyrice/263857964_00ea3536c8.jpg

AWESOME!!!!!!!!:D :D :D

[conorkilpatrick]

AWESOME!!!!!!!!:D :D :D

I agree. That's very funny. Why is Cap dressed like Martha Washington?

[iSteve]

AWESOME!!!!!!!!:D :D :D

Cap and Bucky as transexual cross-dressers?

[kwok_talk]

Previews for the upcoming Dateline with Chris Hansen?

[mikegraham6]

Cap and Bucky as transexual cross-dressers?

why not????:rolleyes:

[iSteve]

Previews for the upcoming Dateline with Chris Hansen?

Good thing he's dead or else he might be charged with contributing to the deliquency of a minor.

[kwok_talk]

Good thing he's dead or else he might be charged with contributing to the deliquency of a minor.

So…Mr Rogers, you normally just send pictures of yourself with nothing but a shield to people?

[fred]

something about guys named Mr. Rogers.......

[iSteve]

So…Mr Rogers, you normally just send pictures of yourself with nothing but a shield to people?

...And would you care to explain the exact nature of your relationship to this sixteen year-old, James Buchanan "Bucky" Barnes? You realize we have photos of him tying you up in a corset? Very incriminating, Mr. Rogers, very incriminating indeed.

[fred]

so Mr. Rogers, it says here that your screenname is IwannaDressYouLikeaLady. Are you telling me that isn't true?

[drwally]

Yes, XYZZY, exactly. From Captain America #2, 1941, by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. As controversial as swiss cheese and just as hokey as a Milton Berle rountine of the same period, which it was no doubt stolen from. At the time, the tendency to respond to the horror of World War was to laugh in the face of it. This is far more like Spike Jones doing his song, "Right in the Furher's face," which you kids don't know, but was very popular at the time.

Cap and Bucky dressed like that in the story to secretly cross enemy lines, and this issue marks the first time Cap actually met Adolf Hitler in person. That scene was done in a comedic way as well, with Cap and Bucky waving at Hitler like they just pulled off a gag on poor dumb Adolf.

http://revision3.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=147&stc=1&d=1174318801

The point I was making was that young people claiming that all that is new is gold, without recognizing the debt to what came before, and the point that all old is good, without recognizing what new creators bring, are two really dumb positions. Good creators know what gold there is in the old stuff, and mine it to make good new stuff, and almost all creators are pretty aware of the hokey old crap that came before, even when they are the ones responsible for producing the crap in the past.

In other words, people were debating nonsense positions, both based on a complete lack of knowledge of the past, while at the same time claiming they knew what that past was.

Simon and Kirby doing a Milton Berle gag (completely free of homosexual overtones) was nothing controversial in 1941, but giving Cap a black partner who wasn't a really bad stereotype was, and it never happened despite the fact that many black people died in WWII for this country. One of Cap's creators, Kirby, in the 1960s, gave Cap two great black partners that totally shattered stereotypes and shattered the idea that "comics-world" was populated only by white people.

And nobody knows anything about Jim Steranko, who Brubaker is totally chanelling. "Oh that Brubaker, he's so "new" and "fresh" never seen anything like that before..." Brubaker would probably be the first to disagree and totally acknowledge the influence of past masters, who he so wonderfully adapts and mixes together with other influences in a sophisticated package for a new age.

Glen:
You now have your "Original and Authentic Captain America," by Jack Kirby, he's wearing a dress, and everyone is making gay jokes, except the people who actually know the source. I suggest everyone get to know source material before commenting on it?

Or is that too radical?

[watsonglenn]

...And would you care to explain the exact nature of your relationship to this sixteen year-old, James Buchanan "Bucky" Barnes? You realize we have photos of him tying you up in a corset? Very incriminating, Mr. Rogers, very incriminating indeed.

You would'nt dare say that if cap was still alive.

[labor_days]

Cap dressing Bucky up in a dress and Bucky somehow not knowing why...it's a little disturbing.

Still, wartime and all that. I'm sure Cap kicked a Nazi in the face as soon as they got to Europe (wtf?).


edite: anyone else notice that reflection in the mirror as Cap adjusts his wig? it totally doesn't match the action. how bizarre.

[drwally]

Cap dressing Bucky up in a dress and Bucky somehow not knowing why...it's a little disturbing.

Still, wartime and all that. I'm sure Cap kicked a Nazi in the face as soon as they got to Europe (wtf?).


edite: anyone else notice that reflection in the mirror as Cap adjusts his wig? it totally doesn't match the action. how bizarre.

Disturbing? Just a standard MILTON BERLE GAG (check wikipedia or ask your grandfather if you don't believe me), once a common staple of comedy at the time. As I like to say, Japanese and Germans went to war with funeral dirges and martial music, Americans went to war with jokes and jazz music, and four color comics. Who won?

OH MY GOD! THAT MAN IS IN A DRESS! IS THAT GAY??????:eek: I am so comfortable with my sexual identity in this sophisticated 21st century culture, but OH MY GOD CAPTAIN AMERICA IS IN A DRESS, IS THAT GAY????:eek:

The gag -- The man you would least expect to be in a lady's dress dressing up like Martha Washington (good call, Conor). And yes, lots and lots of Cap and Bucky in standard costume in great fight action scenes with soldiers and tanks Kirby was already doing so well so early in his career. I think he was the best when it came to replicating in 2D the fast and furious fist fight action from the movie serials of the time.

The mistake in the mirror and how the dialogue runs is easy to explain - in those days most stories were 12 pages at most, and artists drew loads more pages then they do now just to eek out a meager living, so both story and artist had to move at break neck pace, with no time for the careful planning and care we see in books today.

The idea that older artists "already did everything" is ridiculous because older writers and artists would no doubt be envious of the time artists have these days to work on a book. In fact, they might even call today's artists spoiled. Kirby once did an entire Captain America story (1960s) in one weekend because Steranko (the young guy) missed a deadline.

And nobody probably noticed.

[conorkilpatrick]

Disturbing? Just a standard MILTON BERLE GAG (check wikipedia or ask your grandfather if you don't believe me), once a common staple of comedy at the time. As I like to say, Japanese and Germans went to war with funeral dirges and martial music, Americans went to war with jokes and jazz music, and four color comics. Who won?

It's pretty normal stuff to anyone who has watched the classic Looney Toons cartoons. Bugs Bunny spent as much time in a dress as out of one.

They used to show those cartoons after school. Man, I miss them.

http://www.tr.k12.in.us/trh01/alleet/ADVCAPP%202003/rileyk/images/logo-loony-toons-2.gif

[drwally]

Interview with Ed Brubaker, confirming what I thought when I first read his Captain America stuff last month. I just found this tonight in 2 seconds:Google->Brubaker+Steranko

DF: Who's your favorite Captain America writer/artist team?
ED BRUBAKER: That's a tough one, honestly. My all-time favorite Cap issues are probably the Steranko issues, but I also love the early Kirby/Lee stories, too.

Full interview:
http://www.dynamicforces.com/htmlfiles/interviews.html?showinterview=IN09070550150

Wikipedia on Steranko, anything look familiar?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Steranko

[drwally]

It's pretty normal stuff to anyone who has watched the classic Looney Toons cartoons. Bugs Bunny spent as much time in a dress as out of one.

They used to show those cartoons after school. Man, I miss them.

http://www.tr.k12.in.us/trh01/alleet/ADVCAPP%202003/rileyk/images/logo-loony-toons-2.gif

"What's Opera Doc?" is GENIUS. Maybe best cartoon in history.

"SPEAR AND MAGIC HELMET!"

[labor_days]

Yes, but don't you find it odd that Bucky would just be standing around allowing Rogers to dress him as a woman and not have any idea about the mission?

It's just bizarre.

[xyzzy]

"What's Opera Doc?" is GENIUS. Maybe best cartoon in history.

"SPEAR AND MAGIC HELMET!"

I think we can at least all agree on that.

Really a fantastic cartoon.

[conorkilpatrick]

Yes, but don't you find it odd that Bucky would just be standing around allowing Rogers to dress him as a woman and not have any idea about the mission?

It's just bizarre.

Look, their apartment building got torn down and they need to find a cheap place to live and the Susan B. Anthony Hotel is perfect, price-wise, but the only problem is they only allow women to live there so...

[fred]

Look, their apartment building got torn down and they need to find a cheap place to live and the Susan B. Anthony Hotel is perfect, price-wise, but the only problem is they only allow women to live there so...

15 years later millions of Americans go to the movies to watch Bucky talk to a ****ing volleyball for 45 minutes

[labor_days]

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/645/13200bbv2.jpg
Off to Europe then, Tom?


(surprising lack of quality Bosom Buddies pics out in cyberspace.)

[drwally]

AND NONE of you LOONS has probably looked up STERANKO yet. OH, forget the guy that introduced Bond Girls and skin tight zipper suits and Madame Hydra with the whip and chics in full 60s Go-Go girl outfits to comics, no:

YOU guys are facinated with the men in dresses. Who exactly is the one who's queer here? I give up.

DF: Who's your favorite Captain America writer/artist team?
ED BRUBAKER: That's a tough one, honestly. My all-time favorite Cap issues are probably the Steranko issues, but I also love the early Kirby/Lee stories, too.

Full interview:
http://www.dynamicforces.com/htmlfil...=IN09070550150

Wikipedia on Steranko, anything look familiar?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Steranko

[paper]

So this is what it's like when you can't check a thread every 3 minutes.

FRED WILLARD - Wha Happened?

[darron]

So this is what it's like when you can't check a thread every 3 minutes.

FRED WILLARD - Wha Happened?

EXACTLY. I spend 30-45 friggin minutes after work trying to catch up. It's exhausting.

[drwally]

EXACTLY. I spend 30-45 friggin minutes after work trying to catch up. It's exhausting.

One guy dies and it all goes to pieces...

[darron]

One guy dies and it all goes to pieces...

Alright, I might get lambasted for saying this, but Cap's death didn't really mean diddly-squat to me. The way in which it was done just did not in any way what-so-ever resonate with me. Not to say Supes and Doomsday swinging away did, but I was a kid then and it totally caught my imagination.

Now I'm not saying I disagree with it, or think it was done badly. Not at all. I completely agree with the fact it was the POW last week.

I dunno, I don't have an analytical mind, nor am I too good at trying to get my point across, which makes actually trying to post something serious pretty hard for me. Effing Schizophrenia suck, people.

[mikegraham6]

Alright, I might get lambasted for saying this, but Cap's death didn't really mean diddly-squat to me. The way in which it was done just did not in any way what-so-ever resonate with me. Not to say Supes and Doomsday swinging away did, but I was a kid then and it totally caught my imagination.

Now I'm not saying I disagree with it, or think it was done badly. Not at all. I completely agree with the fact it was the POW last week.

I dunno, I don't have an analytical mind, nor am I too good at trying to get my point across, which makes actually trying to post something serious pretty hard for me. Effing Schizophrenia suck, people.

i understand what your saying. it didn't go any further than an initial shock for me. these are all just character/creations who are fluid. they are constantly being manipulated to keep them fresh and relevant and the only thing that concerns me is whether or not i'll get good stories out of it. thats not to say i dont care about the characters, i do , but i care for a good story more, thats the whole reason i got back into comics in the first place

[paper]

Alright, I might get lambasted for saying this, but Cap's death didn't really mean diddly-squat to me. The way in which it was done just did not in any way what-so-ever resonate with me. Not to say Supes and Doomsday swinging away did, but I was a kid then and it totally caught my imagination.

Now I'm not saying I disagree with it, or think it was done badly. Not at all. I completely agree with the fact it was the POW last week.



I agree, but I've been afraid to express the opinion until now.

Solidarity, brother!

I blame my lack of history with the character, my being spoiled, and maybe, just maybe...the book itself. I don't remember liking the dialogue very much. Didn't hate it. Just didn't have the same visceral reaction as much of our little community had.

[fred]

I was really moved by the issue but still don't understand the places that this thread has gone or the number of posts in it.

[watsonglenn]

I was really moved by the issue but still don't understand the places that this thread has gone or the number of posts in it.

Its a Captain America thang. You wouldn't understand.

[drwally]

Its a Captain America thang. You wouldn't understand.

Wow, is that not the most dictionary perfect example of being unconsciously ironic? Glen, you may want to read a few of the posts since you been gone...

[watsonglenn]

Wow, is that not the most dictionary perfect example of being unconsciously ironic? Glen, you may want to read a few of the posts since you been gone...

It was a joke. See how I spelled 'thing' with an "A."

Lighten up.

[drwally]

It was a joke. See how I spelled 'thing' with an "A."

Lighten up.

Oh, I SEE now..."thing" spelled with an "A." Now that's funny. Thanks for pointing that out. I never would have gotten it without you explaining it. Now I find it completely hilarious.

Yes, believe it or not, I am really and truly laughing hysterically right now. As funny as an old Milton Berle gag.

[conorkilpatrick]

Wally/Watson - This is growing tiresome.

I'm thisclose to closing the thread.

[drwally]

I was really moved by the issue but still don't understand the places that this thread has gone or the number of posts in it.

NOW there is a good point, actually resonding to DaRROn and Paper ON TOPIC, imagine that. I think this thread should have been called the "Captain America Thread" rather than the "Captain America #25" thread, and has just refused to die, and been more about the hype (and hype from people posting) than the book itself, which "The Death Event" turned into.

So it is completely understandable that DaRRon and Paper should have their respective reactions, when all Brubaker was trying to do was move the story along from where he started it about a year ago. You just can not hype a single issue that much and that fast and expect people not reading Brubaker's total run on Cap (and all the tie-ins to CW), and those that don't have as much invested in the charater to get into it. DaRRon totally captures my view - maybe it was not the best issue ever (how could it ever live up to the hype?) but the issue itself and the effect it had did warrant POW status, and Conor made that case already when he picked it.

And if people want this thread to keep going, go ahead and respond, but I vote we kill it, and move on to bigger and better things.

[drwally]

Wally/Watson - This is growing tiresome.

I'm thisclose to closing the thread.

I completely agree, my last post was written before you posted yours, Conor. I think at this point, let it die a natural death. I think it will very soon, if not tonight.

[watsonglenn]

Wally/Watson - This is growing tiresome.

I'm thisclose to closing the thread.

Whoa there cowboy, close the thread if you want but don't lump me in with someone you think is not posting correctly. I did nothing wrong. If some guy wants to go on the attack how is that my fault?

[watsonglenn]

And if people want this thread to keep going, go ahead and respond, but I vote we kill it, and move on to bigger and better things.

Are we gonna start this now?

Personally I avoid threads I have no interest in. But I don't begrudge those who want to talk in threads I don't care for.

To me the best way to vote to kill a thread is not posting to that thread.

[jimski]

This is great: does Brubaker have a Cap-killing conspiracy up his sleeve?? (http://blog.newsarama.com/2007/09/26/the-fifth-color-back-and-to-the-left/)

[conorkilpatrick]

This is great: does Brubaker have a Cap-killing conspiracy up his sleeve?? (http://blog.newsarama.com/2007/09/26/the-fifth-color-back-and-to-the-left/)

Oh, my....

[esophagus]

This could definitely be a great new angle. Stoked to see if it's just knit picking, or if they have something.

[paper]

There is evidence somewhere on this forum of me suggesting that Sharon had imagined it based on power of supernatural suggestion. That's actually how I read it originally, and then I came online and everybody was saying Sharon had been mind-controlled to do it.

Redemption!

[kahunablair]

There is evidence somewhere on this forum of me suggesting that Sharon had imagined it based on power of supernatural suggestion. That's actually how I read it originally, and then I came online and everybody was saying Sharon had been mind-controlled to do it.

Redemption!

I'm wondering if that was what was originally intended Paper. Maybe after the way that everyone interpreted the original scenes, they changed the direction of the story.