Captain America #25

[iSteve]

There is an internet rumor on Captain America #25 that is presumably derived from access to a comic store preview issue. I have absolutely no idea whether there is any truth to this rumor, but I thought it was worth sharing for the discussion it would probably cause.

All this said, if you hate unfounded spoiler rumors, don't read the following (Conor, this means you, bub):






Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!!!!!







Cap is taken from the prison to court to stand trial. As he is leaving the courthouse, he is shot in the head by a sniper. The who and why are not disclosed.

Discuss.

[fred]

no ****in way
that's ludicrous

Wait, on second thought after the shit that's happened I believe it

[fred]

I will develop some way to punish them without dropping books

ideas?

[paper]

It would be fanastastic if the sniper were aiming for Spider-man.

[fred]

**** that. aunt may shoudl die. leave cap alone

[iSteve]

no ****in way
that's ludicrous

Wait, on second thought after the shit that's happened I believe it

It would explain a lot. And there was no significant death in CW #7. Why have the follow up series called "Fallen Son" otherwise?

[fred]

It would explain a lot. And there was no significant death in CW #7. Why have the follow up series called "Fallen Son" otherwise?

you realize now I'm going to have agita until Wednesday? **** that, I'll email my shop owner tonight to see if he got a preview(they've been stingy during CW because of spoilers)

[k-dizzle]

**** that. aunt may shoudl die. leave cap alone What would be the possibleotive for shooting cap? Im not worried if it turns out to be true, he wont die.
We can always freeze him, he will be fine.

[fred]

ok, just emailed my cbg. hopefully I'll hear from him tomorrow

[fred]

What would be the possibleotive for shooting cap? Im not worried if it turns out to be true, he wont die.
We can always freeze him, he will be fine.

because they hate jesus, babies, and America

[alexg]

This is entirely possible, and wouldn't surprise me given the way Marvel has been telling stories. However, the only reason I don't think it's true is that Marvel has not cranked up the "Mystery Hype Machine" for this issue. It's out of character for them to do something so major without even some sort of hype-ifciation. Even for The Return they were trying to make a big deal about the mystery in the issue.

[kwok_talk]

That would be freaking ridiculous....and yet completely possible. In 2009, we'll find out that the Cap who was shot was a clone and he's been kept frozen in Red Skull's lab all this time.

[fred]

they are going around calling it 'one you can't miss' and stuff like that

they're making it seem important

this better be fake

[iSteve]

because they hate jesus, babies, and America

Who knows, maybe Cap sets this up to feign death and go rogue. Remember, Bucky/Winter Soldier is a world class assassin with a mean kill shot.

[fred]

That would be freaking ridiculous....and yet completely possible. In 2009, we'll find out that the Cap who was shot was a clone and he's been kept frozen in Red Skull's lab all this time.

they trapped him in the choas box infinity gem bloodstone whositcalled thing

[kwok_talk]

Who knows, maybe Cap sets this up to feign death and go rogue. Remember, Bucky/Winter Soldier is a world class assassin with a mean kill shot.

I liked it when it was called 24 season 5.

[k-dizzle]

because they hate jesus, babies, and America Your right, and when your right, your right, and you, your always right. Maybe thats where Nick Fury has been, training with Al quada to dust off CAp.

[fred]

Who knows, maybe Cap sets this up to feign death and go rogue. Remember, Bucky/Winter Soldier is a world class assassin with a mean kill shot.

in breevort's day 2(newsarama -check my this week thread for link -plug plug), he says something to the effect of Cap's looking forward to fighting it out in the courts

also, how's he get to set this up with bucky? he's in jail, bucky's not exactly low-profile

[kwok_talk]

they trapped him in the choas box infinity gem bloodstone whositcalled thing

Coming in 2008! What do you get when you have one WWII vet stuck in the present day and one Nazi with a red skull and stick them into one tiny cosmic cube? Hilarity ensues with this modern day odd couple. Even funnier than Howard the Duck!

[fred]

Your right, and when your right, your right, and you, your always right. Maybe thats where Nick Fury has been, training with Al quada to dust off CAp.

No, I've got a Nick Fury spoiler. He's actually been exhuming the corpses of past presidents and violating them. Let's make sure we don't leave one 'purely' good guy on the table

[k-dizzle]

This is entirely possible, and wouldn't surprise me given the way Marvel has been telling stories. However, the only reason I don't think it's true is that Marvel has not cranked up the "Mystery Hype Machine" for this issue. It's out of character for them to do something so major without even some sort of hype-ifciation. Even for The Return they were trying to make a big deal about the mystery in the issue.
that and we would see a alt cover with cap riding in a car waving to the people ala JFK.

[iSteve]

in breevort's day 2(newsarama -check my this week thread for link -plug plug), he says something to the effect of Cap's looking forward to fighting it out in the courts

also, how's he get to set this up with bucky? he's in jail, bucky's not exactly low-profile

Pre-planned, my man, pre-planned.

[fred]

Coming in 2008! What do you get when you have one WWII vet stuck in the present day and one Nazi with a red skull and stick them into one tiny cosmic cube? Hilarity ensues with this modern day odd couple. Even funnier than Howard the Duck!

they should make it a buddy road movie and then it doesn't even matter if cap is dead - it'll be like weekend at bernies but of course at a lower quality point

[iSteve]

So now we know why Cap isn't a New Avenger anymore.

[fred]

Pre-planned, my man, pre-planned.

I really hope that this is fake. I could wind up in Arkham

[fred]

So now we know why Cap isn't a New Avenger anymore.


lies, lies, he's the invisible Avenger

[iSteve]

lies, lies, he's the invisible Avenger

The "angelic" Avenger, who comforts and inspires us always.

[fred]

The "angelic" Avenger, who comforts and inspires us always.

you've upset me steve. I think I'm going to sleep now.;)

[paper]

"Mr. Stark, any comment on the assassination of your fromer friend Captain America?"

"I just fear for that troubled young gunman. Mostly because it was a blank check, and I didn't know him as well as I would have liked."

[fred]

why is my mask disappointed with me?

[k-dizzle]

why is my mask disappointed with me? butter****...

[watsonglenn]

I'm sure its a possibilty. Cap has been shot before. There are many scenarios for this.

1. Its a fake bullet, i.e. tranq, rubber, whatever
2. Its an LMD, clone, alternate universe Cap, whatever.
3. He is shot in the head and requires some dramatic operation that only (insert mystery doctor from the past) can perform, ala. Hush. Actually this is the most likely scenario since it copies a DC Batman story line which Marvel has a habit of doing. Maybe only Iron Man is able to get this doctor which would bring these old friends together again.

What I can say for sure is that Ultimately Steve Rogers will be or will return to being Cap. I know you all know this as well as I do but it had to be said.

[kwok_talk]

3. He is shot in the head and requires some dramatic operation that only (insert mystery doctor from the past) can perform, ala. Hush. Actually this is the most likely scenario since it copies a DC Batman story line which Marvel has a habit of doing. Maybe only Iron Man is able to get this doctor which would bring these old friends together again.


Night Nurse to the rescue! Unless she's too busy making out with Dr. Strange.

[paper]

"Tony, do you really think it's appropriate to be here at Steve's wake? I mean considering?"

"Considering what, Reed?"

"The fact that you put a contract out on him that ultimately resulted in his death; also, your drunkeness."

"Not my fault you're having the service in my bathroom..."

"This isn't your....oh.....oh god."

"What's your wife doing after this?"

[iSteve]

Alternate theory of assassination - Frank Castle/The Punisher pulls the trigger because he so pissed at Cap giving up like a wuss. Remember who was left holding the mask in CW 7.

[iSteve]

At the end of the Civil War, just as the nation begins to recover, suddenly a beloved national hero is cut down by an assassin's bullet. Sound familiar?

[paper]

At the end of the Civil War, just as the nation begins to recover, suddenly a beloved national hero is cut down by an assassin's bullet. Sound familiar?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/polcapn/jwb.jpg

(slurred) "sic...semper....tyrannosaurus, Steve!"

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/polcapn/255480781_d01d9f7651_o.jpg


You've been Starked!

[iSteve]

Now that is an eerie resembalance.

[paper]

If you mix up the letters in:

"Ack! Lincoln was killed in a theater, and everything went dark."

You get:

"Tony Stark: Killer" and some other letters

[paper]

Gah!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/polcapn/CAP_25_Cov1.jpg

[iSteve]

Captain America #25 is Civl War #8. This is the REAL end of the series.

[watsonglenn]

I don't mind it when heroes go through bad spots. That's what made Marvel great in the first place. But at some pint in the future Marvel is going to have to come up with a happy ending to this and I don't see how.

[k-dizzle]

Gah!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/polcapn/CAP_25_Cov1.jpgniiiice........

[jo-relrollins]

oh their gonna pop him. and then 3 months later he'll appear as Ronin, with some half stepped reasoning.

[comhcinc]

wait a sec.....bucky is alive and they are killing cap?!?!?!?!?http://www.doctorpundit.com/images/uploads/khan.jpg


KHAN!!!

[iSteve]

Gah!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/polcapn/CAP_25_Cov1.jpg

This was all unsubstantiated rumor-mill until you posted that cover. Gotta ask - is it real? Where did you get it?

[fred]

fake fake fake

i hope. In all fairness, I'm a bit on the delusional side right now. I just got back from the ER, where I was so out of it I fell asleep in public surrounded by dirty people. Today, I am not to be trusted.

[iSteve]

IF Cap does get shot, the more I think about it I don't think it can be either Bucky or Frank Castle. Bucky would not shoot his mentor and best friend. Frank Castle, for all his flaws, doesn't kill heroes - especially not Cap. Just doesn't make sense. So I'm laying my money on a third unsub.

[iSteve]

fake fake fake

i hope. In all fairness, I'm a bit on the delusional side right now. I just got back from the ER, where I was so out of it I fell asleep in public surrounded by dirty people. Today, I am not to be trusted.

What's the matter? Sick?

[fred]

I'm with you. It can't be Bucky or Frank. I blame Reed Richards. Or maybe Hank Pym found someone from one of his anger management classes to do it.

Hank Pym: Hey
Fellow Woman Beater: What's up Hank?
Hank Pym: You know Cap ****ed your wife right?
Fellow Woman Beater: What? I'll kill him

see? easy

[fred]

What's the matter? Sick?

4th case of Acute Bronchitis this winter. I have the immune system of an amoeba with AIDS

[iSteve]

So with this new rumor/info, what do we make of Joe Quesada's protests that Cap doesn't die? I think he was even specific - Steve Rogers doesn't die?

[iSteve]

4th case of Acute Bronchitis this winter. I have the immune system of an amoeba with AIDS

Really sorry. Bronchitis can be a @#$%&. Take care of yourself.

[fred]

Was it Mark Twain who said 'There are three types of lies. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.'? What was I talking about?

OH yeah, Quesada's full of shit. Not that I'll believe all this until I see it or hear it from cbg. But he's done it before.

[fred]

Really sorry. Bronchitis can be a @#$%&. Take care of yourself.

thanks. Haven't been able to shake it. I've got antibiotics now and I'm on the 'juice' so it should be all good in a day or two

[iSteve]

One thing we do know, Brubaker is still on Captain America. So whether Cap is dead or in a coma, the series continues. The question is whether Bucky steps up at the new/temporary Cap. I could go for that.

[fred]

I would accept that but it would still piss me off. You think Daniel Way gets under my skin? Kill Cap after treating him like an assh*le for a few weeks now.

[iSteve]

If Cap does bite the dust, then Wednesday needs to be declared a fanboy day of mourning.

[iSteve]

I would accept that but it would still piss me off. You think Daniel Way gets under my skin? Kill Cap after treating him like an assh*le for a few weeks now.

Especially after the piece of #$% that was Frontline #11. Indignity upon injustice.

[fred]

Frontline #11 was vile. I was beside myself. I didn't even know where to start.

[fred]

If Cap does bite the dust, then Wednesday needs to be declared a fanboy day of mourning.

I have like 15+ books again on Wednesday. I think that 4 weeks in a row. It's definitely 3. But anyway, I don't see how this wouldn't piss me off so much that all of my other reading would be colored by it.

[iSteve]

I have like 15+ books again on Wednesday. I think that 4 weeks in a row. It's definitely 3. But anyway, I don't see how this wouldn't piss me off so much that all of my other reading would be colored by it.

I saw a shipping list on another site - I'm with you - it's going to be another big week for me as well. If this turns out to be true, how could it not affect the way you read the other titles. At least for a Cap fan.

[fred]

I know, it's almost like I want to read it last but how can I?

[iSteve]

I know, it's almost like I want to read it last but how can I?

You can't. Or at least I can't. Gonna be top of the pile. Good issue or no, it's gotta be POW, don't you think?

[paper]

This was all unsubstantiated rumor-mill until you posted that cover. Gotta ask - is it real? Where did you get it?


This Newsarama thread (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=103418) via this (http://www.comicboards.com/camb/) Captain America message board.

[iSteve]

This Newsarama thread (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=103418) via this (http://www.comicboards.com/camb/) Captain America message board.

It looks too real to have been faked.

[paper]

It's a terrible cover. Evocative and all, but it'd be incredible if he actually died in his abandoned costume on top of the next day's newspaper.

[iSteve]

It's a terrible cover. Evocative and all, but it'd be incredible if he actually died in his abandoned costume on top of the next day's newspaper.

Thanks for posting it. I find it intriguing! And sad. I think I'm in mourning already.

[fred]

You can't. Or at least I can't. Gonna be top of the pile. Good issue or no, it's gotta be POW, don't you think?

it would have to be really well done

[iSteve]

it would have to be really well done

I've got a feeling that you're gonna have quite a rant in your reviews this week.

You know what else is a kick in the teeth? Iron Man's Mighty Avengers makes their debut this week. Not even a decent period of mourning. (Actually I'm looking forward to what they do with this new title.)

[fred]

I'm waiting to see it too. It's either the best or worst thing ever. I'm calling it now

[iSteve]

I'm waiting to see it too. It's either the best or worst thing ever. I'm calling it now

With Bendis at the helm, I'm betting that it will be good.

[fred]

I honestly don't want to like it but I think it will be too.
I hate IM, Sentry, Ares

[iSteve]

I'm not crazy about the line-up either. But I trust Bendis to do something interesting with them.

[watsonglenn]

I thought Cap was in one of the versions of the Avengers.

[iSteve]

I thought Cap was in one of the versions of the Avengers.

He's not in either one. The New New Avengers is based on the premise that they have come together because Cap asked them to. It's rumored that Capt. America may make an appearance down the road - but that all now depends doesn't it.

[fred]

So I went to my lcs to see if I could get a look at the preview copy and the owner was out and had taken the previews with him. So I went to another one where they put them all out in a book and they didn't have it, or Mighty Avengers, or a few other things. So, it may be that Marvel is trying to keep this one tight.

[iSteve]

So I went to my lcs to see if I could get a look at the preview copy and the owner was out and had taken the previews with him. So I went to another one where they put them all out in a book and they didn't have it, or Mighty Avengers, or a few other things. So, it may be that Marvel is trying to keep this one tight.

Thanks for trying, Fred.

[fred]

no need to thank me. If I have to wait until Wednesday I'm going to go insane

[iSteve]

no need to thank me. If I have to wait until Wednesday I'm going to go insane

I should have never posted that rumor. It's driving you crazy at the very moment you need all your emotional strength to fight bronchitis.

[alexg]

Well, from the nonsense I've looked at on other news sites, Cap's killing seems likely. Whatever, as if he'll stay dead. How many big time comic characters that have been killed have actually stayed dead? I'm guessing none. Wasn't there even a quote from the last ifanboy video about this? Something along the lines of "So what, it's comics, I can bring him back whenever I want."

[iSteve]

Well, from the nonsense I've looked at on other news sites, Cap's killing seems likely. Whatever, as if he'll stay dead. How many big time comic characters that have been killed have actually stayed dead? I'm guessing none. Wasn't there even a quote from the last ifanboy video about this? Something along the lines of "So what, it's comics, I can bring him back whenever I want."

I read somewhere that "being dead ain't what it used to be." It does seem routine for comic characters to be killed off and later resurrected. Does that mean a death doesn't have consequence? I don't think so. If the "why" is addressed, a death can be a powerful dramatic tool. Marvel better have a very good reason for Cap's death (if in fact he does die) or else it will feel contrived and pointless.

[fred]

I remember when they just used to stick the heroes in blocks of ice or at the bottom of a bay in a spaceship when they wanted to get rid of them. Damn new-fangled comics

[tony-stark-hero]

I'm not denying anything.

But I do have a date lined up for a certain "burial at sea" (off a trash barge)on Friday.

Remember, kids. Unregistered heroes never die. They just float away.

[alexg]

I'm not denying anything.

But I do have a date lined up for a certain "burial at sea" (off a trash barge)on Friday.

Remember, kids. Unregistered heroes never die. They just float away.

mmm, this bit is already getting old...sorry.

[humphrey-lee]

If this is true, I figure it's either a Life Model Decoy used so Cap can go out and be a "rogue operative" (which probably means Ronin, ugh) or it's actually true, and uh, the stupidest and most pathetic editorial decisions I've ever heard of. Can we just have one era, just one stupid era where the main selling point of comics can be, uh, quality writing and not cheap shock value? Just one?

[k-dizzle]

If this is true, I figure it's either a Life Model Decoy used so Cap can go out and be a "rogue operative" (which probably means Ronin, ugh) or it's actually true, and uh, the stupidest and most pathetic editorial decisions I've ever heard of. Can we just have one era, just one stupid era where the main selling point of comics can be, uh, quality writing and not cheap shock value? Just one?
I have it on really really really good authority that yall have been hornswaggled. Cap is NOT going to be killed.

[humphrey-lee]

I have it on really really really good authority that yall have been hornswaggled. Cap is NOT going to be killed.

I didn't really put any stock in it, but there's been way too many stupid ideas that I thought they wouldn't have ever done because a five year old would have had enough IQ to realize how dumb they are. You really just never know to what extend the people who make these decisions will go to to drum up some cheap heat.

[k-dizzle]

I didn't really put any stock in it, but there's been way too many stupid ideas that I thought they wouldn't have ever done because a five year old would have had enough IQ to realize how dumb they are. You really just never know to what extend the people who make these decisions will go to to drum up some cheap heat.
Well they are drumming up cheap heat right now with cap 25, all this is coming from the marvel camp. Actually its pretty smart to use the internet as a tool to generate interest in your product.

[humphrey-lee]

Well they are drumming up cheap heat right now with cap 25, all this is coming from the marvel camp. Actually its pretty smart to use the internet as a tool to generate interest in your product.

What? And I thought Newsarama was all about hard hitting comic's journalism.. now I know it's all been a lie....... *sigh* Why Marvel, WHYYYYYY?!?!?!? :(

[kwok_talk]

Let's say that Cap is getting killed off. How long do you think that Brubaker has known? Man, that'd be a hard one to keep a secret.

[mastap]

Well they are drumming up cheap heat right now with cap 25, all this is coming from the marvel camp. Actually its pretty smart to use the internet as a tool to generate interest in your product.

This just sucks for people who collect the series (the clerk at my comic shop always gives me a funny look when i buy this and I usually go "It's a good spy book, really." there needs to be more Canadian heroes)

[ekval]

Maybe all the hype is paying off. I actually might want to buy an issue of Cap now. (I know, I've been missing out apparently.)

I will say that I think this would only go to further the tension in the Marvel U. that seems to be a big part of the end goal.

[six-gun]

Let's say that Cap is getting killed off. How long do you think that Brubaker has known? Man, that'd be a hard one to keep a secret.

Brubaker can keep a secret, just look at how long he kept Foggy being alive under wraps.

[iSteve]

Recent Wikipedia entry on Captain America #25 reprinted below.











*****Spoiler Alert*****







In a follow-up in Captain America #25, Steve Rogers is shot in the shoulder by a sniper on his way up the steps to the Federal Court. In the ensuing crowd chaos, he is shot three times in the gut with a pistol, and later appears to die of his injuries. It is later revealed that the plan was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones, and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr.Faustus, was the person who had shot Rogers in the stomach.

[kwok_talk]

In a follow-up in Captain America #25, Steve Rogers is shot in the shoulder by a sniper on his way up the steps to the Federal Court. In the ensuing crowd chaos, he is shot three times in the gut with a pistol, and later appears to die of his injuries. It is later revealed that the plan was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones, and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr.Faustus, was the person who had shot Rogers in the stomach.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[iSteve]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

This particular version of our unfounded internet rumor seems more plausible insofar as the shooter(s) go. Red Skull is behind it all.

[kwok_talk]

This particular version of our unfounded internet rumor seems more plausible insofar as the shooter(s) go. Red Skull is behind it all.

The whole "appears to be killed" is also frustrating if true. Wouldn't know whether to be glad or just angry if they then later brought him back

[fred]

that is so ****ed up

[comhcinc]

what i find interesting is that there is a Wikipedia entry on Captain America #25


that is just odd

[jo-relrollins]

what i find interesting is that there is a Wikipedia entry on Captain America #25


that is just odd

Thats how big this one issue has become.

[comhcinc]

Thats how big this one issue has become.

yeah but no really believes that they are killing captain america. why that would be like killing superman.



and i haven't seen the story on cnn

[jo-relrollins]

yeah but no really believes that they are killing captain america. why that would be like killing superman.



and i haven't seen the story on cnn

And they haven't done that before,have they? :rolleyes:

[k-dizzle]

spoilercap is headed to trial, cap gets shot, the shooter (not killer) is never revealed.

[big-doze]

If you want potential SPOILERS, check out the Wikipedia article on Captain America, near the bottom. It talks about the events of Cap #25.

[luthor]

****MAJOR SPOILER****


http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/DDream/Cap25.html

[kwok_talk]

****MAJOR SPOILER****


http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/DDream/Cap25.html

"Joe Quesada, 43, Marvel Entertainment's editor in chief, said he wouldn't rule out the shield-throwing champion's eventual return. But for now, the Captain's fans are in mourning."

Yuck. What a way to cheapen his death. IF you are going to kill him off, he has to stay dead (although I will be glad when he returns)

[ekval]

No one stays dead, and even if that is the intent, people get up in arms and they bring him back...(Hal anyone!)

[watsonglenn]

what i find interesting is that there is a Wikipedia entry on Captain America #25


that is just odd


I noticed in the Wikepedia entry on Iron Man that his enemies list now includes Spider Man and Captain America right next to the Mandarin.

That makes me sad.

[iSteve]

what i find interesting is that there is a Wikipedia entry on Captain America #25


that is just odd

It was posted in the Captain America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America) entry in Wikipedia.

[fred]

this story was just confirmed in the Howard Stern 'news'cast

[jaflanagan]

So I've avoided this thread since it came up, but sure as ****in' shit, this morning I walk into my office, and a co-worker goes: "SO CAPTAIN AMERICA IS DEAD NOW?"

*sigh*

[iSteve]

So much for your Wednesday surprise.

[fred]

Right now, I feel as though I hate it but I haven't read the how and why of it yet. I'm actually home today because I just got back from the hospital again. The cool thing is that I'll get my books within the hour.

The one thing I can say is that this has gotten them news coverage from non-traditional outlets.

[iSteve]

Right now, I feel as though I hate it but I haven't read the how and why of it yet. I'm actually home today because I just got back from the hospital again. The cool thing is that I'll get my books within the hour.

The one thing I can say is that this has gotten them news coverage from non-traditional outlets.

Fred, are you still struggling with your bronchitis? Drugs not working?

[fred]

Bronchitis, dehydration, and exhaustion
needed an IV and some bloodwork
I'll be back to normal soon provided I don't get effin TB or something

[iSteve]

Bronchitis, dehydration, and exhaustion
needed an IV and some bloodwork
I'll be back to normal soon provided I don't get effin TB or something

Take care of yourself, dude. The Forum needs the Fred!

[fred]

Take care of yourself, dude. The Forum needs the Fred!

thanks
I will be here, slogging along for the people

[kwok_talk]

Bronchitis, dehydration, and exhaustion
needed an IV and some bloodwork
I'll be back to normal soon provided I don't get effin TB or something

WHAT! Dang, rest up and get well soon. If not, we can probably transfuse some of Cap's blood to you.

[fred]

Thanks but.
I am not fit to carry the blood of such a man

If only Marvel agreed with me...

[fred]

I've read it now

[kwok_talk]

I've read it now

All true? Good issue aside from that?

[kwok_talk]

Is there going to be a CA #26? (Was that issue was the one where we debated whether it looked Punisher?)

[mikegraham6]

HOLY SHIT!!!
i guess brubaker didn't even need to bother explaining caps actions from civil war.

[mikegraham6]

so fred, is the avatar because your in morning?

so speculation time: who's the next cap? punisher or winter soldier?

i say winter soldier? he'd be badass!

[fred]

All true? Good issue aside from that?

it was amazing. I'm probably going to get shit from people for admitting this, but I literally wept while reading it. I'm still welling up.

[fred]

Is there going to be a CA #26? (Was that issue was the one where we debated whether it looked Punisher?)

This issue was titled The Death of The Dream Part 1
so I imagine so

[fred]

so fred, is the avatar because your in morning?

Yes, I felt it was appropriate to interrupt Sweathog Week to honor Captain America.

[mikegraham6]

now my question is: SPOILER WARNING FOR CIVIL WAR; INITIATIVE





in that issue, spiderwoman is talking to ms marvel and they are discussing caps death. i read this issue first and i assumed people jsut thought that cap had died after CW. after reading Cap 25, i went back to it. Spiderwoman says "CAPTAIN AMERICA IS DEAD!" and Ms Marvel says "He's not" "he's tucked away safe on the raft. no one knows. NO ONE! they're trying to save his life as we speak."
so maybe he isn't dead???

[fred]

2 things:

1) the issue ends with him under a sheet on a gurney with his hand hanging limp
2) also from CNN by way of Newsarama:

The CNN story also asks how “real” the death is, to which Quesada replied:
"There was period in comics where characters would just die and then be resurrected. And the death had very little meaning and the resurrection had very little meaning," he said. "All I ask of my writers is if you're going to kill a character off, please let that death have some meaning in the overall scope of things."
Besides, he said, there are other important questions left unanswered. "What happens with the costume? And what happens to the characters that are friends and enemies of Cap?" Queseda said with a smile. "You're going to have to read the books to find out."

[jimski]

What's really interesting is there's a conversation in the "initiative" one shot

[SPOILER, OBVIOUSLY]

that casts these events in doubt. In that someone in a position to know says, "He's not dead." Of course, this same person is also in a position to lie about it. You just don't know.

Except, you sort of do. They're not killing off any character with his own book/movie deal today. They're not tired of making that money.

[mikegraham6]

What's really interesting is there's a conversation in the "initiative" one shot

[SPOILER, OBVIOUSLY]

that casts these events in doubt. In that someone in a position to know says, "He's not dead." Of course, this same person is also in a position to lie about it. You just don't know.

Except, you sort of do. They're not killing off any character with his own book/movie deal today. They're not tired of making that money.

and anyway, this is comics, and this is captain america we are talking about, he'll be back within 6 months (at least). i'd be really impressed if marvel pulled a "Flash" and has someone replace him indefinitely. i dont think they have ever done that with one of their major characters.

[xyzzy]

and anyway, this is comics, and this is captain america we are talking about, he'll be back within 6 months (at least). i'd be really impressed if marvel pulled a "Flash" and has someone replace him indefinitely. i dont think they have ever done that with one of their major characters.

Oh, I think he might be gone longer than 6 months. I mean, keep in mind that these days, 6 months is one arc, if that. The first arc is going to be all about his death and the immediate aftermath. Say, 2 arcs worth of people filling the shoes. Maybe getting a couple hints in the second one of those. If they go that route, say at least 18-24 months before he's back in action. Or he might be back in issue #26. Those are the two most likely scenarios, in my opinion.

[jimski]

The first time I started reading Captain America in the eighties, he had been fired and replaced for an extended period of time, but "extended" back then was probably like three weeks. I had no sense of time back then. Until the DVDs came out and all the episodes fit in one box set, I'd have sworn the Transformers was on for 23 seasons.

It cracks me up that the AP headline is "Comic Book Hero Captain America Dies." It's the "Comic Book Hero" that does it, as if people would otherwise start heading to Arlington to stand along the parade route.

[iSteve]

This book more than measured up to the hype. As Fred has already noted, it is emotionally moving. Many other books might have been spoiled by the spoilers, but not this one. The story is integrated into Cap's character and mythology. And how great was it to see Bucky and the Falcon working together as a team to bring down the bad guy. This issue is destined to be a classic.

[scott-b]

I haven't gotten my books yet, but Marvel decided to post the big conclusion to Cap 25 on their site. Couldn't they have waited until Thursday instead of doing the fake newspaper Daily Bugle thing. Bunch of A-Holes

[fred]

Scott, it totally doesn't matter. It's such a great book. It's like when you read Romeo & Juliet for the first time and you know they die, but it still tears you apart anyway.

Yes, I do realize I just made that comparison and I would again.

[iSteve]

Scott, it totally doesn't matter. It's such a great book. It's like when you read Romeo & Juliet for the first time and you know they die, but it still tears you apart anyway.

Yes, I do realize I just made that comparison and I would again.

Brubaker, while extremely good, is not yet on par with Shakespeare. Sorry, Fred.

[fred]

Brubaker, while extremely good, is not yet on par with Shakespeare. Sorry, Fred.

I meant it more in the sense that the story is so well told that knowledge of the ending is unimportant

[iSteve]

I meant it more in the sense that the story is so well told that knowledge of the ending is unimportant

I kid, I kid. I knew what you meant.:D

[jimski]

If someone were going to see a comic on CNN and then go read it for the first time, they could a lot worse than Cap #25. Action, plot, superheroics, character moments, tone, all spot on. You get a good sense of who everyone is and actually care almost right away. If the new reader makes it past the gobbledegook on the "previously" page ("The Red Skull, who isn't really dead in the body of Lukin, good ol' Lukin, along with Dr. Somebody, is conspiring with the reverse vampires during the Civil War where garage banana baseball giraffe metronome leprechaun") he/she is in for a treat and will almost certainly be back for more.

[fred]

you had me at metronome

[unnamedfrenchguy]

How about keeping him dead until the movie comes out. Then as the movie launches you relaunch the book at #1. New people might even buy it. Hell, distribute the number one issue as a free gift at movie theatres for anyone that goes to the movie: "Hey, that movie was good. So was this comic... Maybe I'll go find #2?" Print it with no adds and a clear date for when issue #2 comes out and maybe a web link to a local comic book shop list so people can find a place to buy #2?

Just a thought.

[fred]

I actually want to see someone else take the role of Captain America. I want this (the way they've made me feel) to mean something.

[kwok_talk]

I actually want to see someone else take the role of Captain America. I want this (the way they've made me feel) to mean something.

(They're looking at you, Mr. Castle.)

[comhcinc]

Steve Rogers is not dead. Just Superman he will be back. You would be foolish to think otherwise.


It's what marvel does with the story that matters. Lets hope they do it well.

[fred]

Steve Rogers is not dead. Just Superman he will be back. You would be foolish to think otherwise.


It's what marvel does with the story that matters. Lets hope they do it well.

Steve Rogers could very much die and be replaced. Captain America will not die.

[comhcinc]

Steve Rogers could very much die and be replaced. Captain America will not die.

nah don't buy it. that isn't how marvel does things.


'sides, doesn't everyone know who Captain America is?

[xyzzy]

Steve Rogers could very much die and be replaced. Captain America will not die.

That's a good point. Everyone is talking about the movie like that means that he can't be dead, but there's no reason that movie can't feature James (Bucky) Barnes as Cap.

[xyzzy]

nah don't buy it. that isn't how marvel does things.


'sides, doesn't everyone know who Captain America is?

No way. If you went out on the street, I doubt you could find 1 in 20 people that knew who Steve Rogers was (at least before the news blitz. That might edge it up to somewhere close to 1 in 20).

In fact, before today, I doubt you could find a lot of people who even knew who Capt. America was.

[fred]

nah don't buy it. that isn't how marvel does things.


'sides, doesn't everyone know who Captain America is?

it doesn't matter that people know who he is

and the other thing is that Marvel is purposely and admittedly trying to change the way their universe works, it's crazy to assume that this obvious workable answer is off the table

[comhcinc]

No way. If you went out on the street, I doubt you could find 1 in 20 people that knew who Steve Rogers was (at least before the news blitz. That might edge it up to somewhere close to 1 in 20).

In fact, before today, I doubt you could find a lot of people who even knew who Capt. America was.

i meant in the marvel u. think about if you live there would you accept someone else calling themselves Captain America? i know i won't.

[xyzzy]

i meant in the marvel u. think about if you live there would you accept someone else calling themselves Captain America? i know i won't.

It didn't seem to bother anybody when it happened with Daredevil.

Regardless, what are they going to do about it? File a trademark infringement suit? I doubt they'd have the standing to do so, anyway.

[conorkilpatrick]

And it wouldn't be the first time someone other than Steve Rogers was Captain America.

[comhcinc]

It didn't seem to bother anybody when it happened with Daredevil.

Regardless, what are they going to do about it? File a trademark infringement suit? I doubt they'd have the standing to do so, anyway.

did anyone know about daredevil? and there is a big difference between donning a costume to help a man out in person and taking up the mantle of a fallen hero.


keep three things in mind
Death of Superman
Batman Knightfall
Spiderman clone saga

[xyzzy]

did anyone know about daredevil? and there is a big difference between donning a costume to help a man out in person and taking up the mantle of a fallen hero.

keep three things in mind
Death of Superman
Batman Knightfall
Spiderman clone saga

I'm too new to comics to know what that's supposed to mean.

[kwok_talk]

did anyone know about daredevil? and there is a big difference between donning a costume to help a man out in person and taking up the mantle of a fallen hero.


keep three things in mind
Death of Superman
Batman Knightfall
Spiderman clone saga

I think most of us believe he’ll come back sometime in the future, but chance are he’ll still be out of commission for quite some time (probably a year or so), which sucks for such a great character as he is. And while each of those examples are ones where the character came back, it definitely didn’t dampen any of the emotion of losing such a big superhero at that time.

Did the odds of him being Ronin just jump up ten-fold?

[scott-b]

Scott, it totally doesn't matter. It's such a great book. It's like when you read Romeo & Juliet for the first time and you know they die, but it still tears you apart anyway.

Yes, I do realize I just made that comparison and I would again.


I'm a Huge Cap fan, so it wasn't going to hinder me from picking it up, but now you got me psyched for the issue again! Thanks Fred

[conorkilpatrick]

Did the odds of him being Ronin just jump up ten-fold?

Quite the contrary, I think they have fallen to just about zero.

[fred]

glad to help
it's really very good

[fred]

Quite the contrary, I think they have fallen to just about zero.

Conor's totally right. He's dead, anything less at this point will aggravate everyone to a level Marvel wouldn't be comfortable with(or shouldn't be)

[comhcinc]

I think most of us believe he’ll come back sometime in the future, but chance are he’ll still be out of commission for quite some time (probably a year or so), which sucks for such a great character as he is. And while each of those examples are ones where the character came back, it definitely didn’t dampen any of the emotion of losing such a big superhero at that time.

Did the odds of him being Ronin just jump up ten-fold?

yeah i'm with you on that and that is what i am talking about.


will marvel do a good job with this or blow it?

i think he should be gone at least a year and a half.

[iSteve]

And it wouldn't be the first time someone other than Steve Rogers was Captain America.

From Wikipedia article on Cap:

Other characters named Captain America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America#Other_characters_named_Captain_Ame rica)

Numerous individuals have claimed the "Captain America" title at one time or another in the Marvel Universe. These include:

* Steven Rogers, an ancestor of Steve Rogers who is shown to have had the nickname "Captain America" during the American Revolutionary War in Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty #6[42] and Hellfire Club #2[43]
* Isaiah Bradley, a super soldier serum test subject who briefly wears the Captain America costume in the 2004 limited series Truth: Red White and Black which is set in the early 1940s.[17]
* Colin MacIntyre, Protocide, a character who goes through the super soldier process the night before Steve Rogers in Captain America Annual 2000. Though he later wears a patriotic costume, he never goes by the title "Captain America".[13]
* Steve Rogers, officially the first Captain America he debuted in Captain America Comics #1 and remains the current title holder.[10]
* William Naslund, The Spirit of '76, is revealed to have replaced Rogers in the role in 1945 in What If? #4.[3]
* Jeff Mace, the Patriot, is revealed to have replaced Naslund in the role in 1947 in What If? #4.[3]
* The 1950s anti-communist Cap whose real name is as yet unrevealed, though he later went by "Steve Rogers" and "the Grand Director". In Captain America #155, he was revealed to have been the Steve Rogers/Captain America who appeared in comics published during the 1950s.[44]
* In Tales of Suspense #96 a number of unnamed individuals try unsuccessfully to assume the Captain America role after Rogers announces his retirement.[45][46]
* In Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty #8-9, Sam Wilson (The Falcon) briefly takes on the identity in a two-part retcon story, set in between other Captain America stories which were first published in the early 1970s.[47]
* Bob Russo, calls himself "Captain America" briefly in Captain America #178-179 (October - November, 1974).[48]
* "Scar" Turpin, also calls himself "Captain America" very briefly in Captain America #179 (November, 1974).[49]
* "Roscoe" becomes "Captain America" in Captain America #181 (January, 1975). He is killed in action by the Red Skull in Captain America #183.[50][51]
* John Walker, later known as U.S. Agent, serves as Captain America in Captain America #336-350.[52] He later claims the title again in the 2004-2005 New Invaders series, despite the fact that Rogers is also active in the role at the time.[53]
* The Anti-Cap, a mysterious character wearing a version of the Captain America costume who appears in the Captain America and the Falcon.[54][55]

[mikegraham6]

this just came over my newswire at work:

NEW YORK (Reuters) - He fought the Nazis. He is revered by
other crime-fighters worldwide. But the beloved,
shield-carrying superhero, Captain America, has finally met his
end -- or has he? The winged-hooded Marvel Entertainment Inc.
hero created in 1941 is shot dead in New York by a
sniper in the latest Captain America issue that hit newsstands
on Wednesday, in a sensational comic-book plot twist that had
been kept a closely guarded secret. His demise is a blow to one of the men who created him. Ninety-three-year-old Joe Simon says: ``We really need him now.''


I wouldn't exactly call it a closely guarded secret, i remember reading speculation about this last week on IGN. and its definitely no secret now, thanks reuters!

[jimski]

Yeah, the part where they went to Joe Simon and he was like, "This is a knife in an old man's heart," was when I felt really good about myself today.

[mikegraham6]

so guys, symbolically, is America dead????:(

[scott-b]

I think most of us believe he’ll come back sometime in the future, but chance are he’ll still be out of commission for quite some time (probably a year or so), which sucks for such a great character as he is. And while each of those examples are ones where the character came back, it definitely didn’t dampen any of the emotion of losing such a big superhero at that time.

Did the odds of him being Ronin just jump up ten-fold?

I doubt he's Ronin. The "Yo Cage" line isn't Cap. It will probably be Hawkeye (Remember they were pretty tight in House of M)

[shane1337]

just throwing this out there in the whole new cap. subject..

what if both punisher and winter solder stepped up to try and be the new captain america? both might feel that they have the right to step in and could lead to a battle between them for the rights to the captain america mantel, seeing as they would both have different takes on how to fill the boots.

additionally, the preview for war journal 5 or 6 says that punisher gets a new outfit.

[kwok_talk]

just throwing this out there in the whole new cap. subject..

what if both punisher and winter solder stepped up to try and be the new captain america? both might feel that they have the right to step in and could lead to a battle between them for the rights to the captain america mantel, seeing as they would both have different takes on how to fill the boots.

additionally, the preview for war journal 5 or 6 says that punisher gets a new outfit.

Seems possible, although I wouldn’t see Winter Soldier want to don the costume as much as prevent Frank from possibly tarnishing the image. That’s interesting about the PWZ, b/c I was wondering that if he took up the CA mantle whether the other Punisher titles would be consistent with that.

[mikegraham6]

Seems possible, although I wouldn’t see Winter Soldier want to don the costume as much as prevent Frank from possibly tarnishing the image. That’s interesting about the PWZ, b/c I was wondering that if he took up the CA mantle whether the other Punisher titles would be consistent with that.

I think all signs point to having the punisher step up to the plate, but i would much rather see winter soldier as cap, he is far more similar to steve than the punisher. the winter soldier is a man out of time, just like cap only he has a bit of a harder edge. the punisher is already an established character, so theres no need to change him. we would be losing not only cap but the punisher as well. winter soldier hasn't been around as long so it just makes more sense to me.

[kwok_talk]

I think all signs point to having the punisher step up to the plate, but i would much rather see winter soldier as cap, he is far more similar to steve than the punisher. the winter soldier is a man out of time, just like cap only he has a bit of a harder edge. the punisher is already an established character, so theres no need to change him. we would be losing not only cap but the punisher as well. winter soldier hasn't been around as long so it just makes more sense to me.

I would totally support your rationale and think it’s a whole lot more logical. There’s just something about Punisher as Cap that just seems a whole lot more crazier (ie fun) and volatile.

Does Punisher’s MAX title give any indication about the change? I know that’s been more independent of the Marvel universe, so if he did become CA I wonder if that one would be affected.

[deezer]

I mean this statement in the best possible way:
I hope they keep Cap dead.
It's not that I don't like the character, it's just that I'm sick of Marvel and DC telling us that "dead is dead" and then finding a loop hole to get out of it (well... we never actually saw him die, well... he wasn't brought back to life, he teleported himself from a few years before he died, so he isn't really dead per se, etc.). For once, a death in the Marvel U can actually lead to some sick storylines (who will be the new cap, to name one) and it will seriously shake up the status quo, which I think is always good. Also, this was a really well-handled death, and they shouldn't mess with it anymore. Make Bucky or someone else Cap, don't bring back Steve Rodgers.
That being said, great issue and I'm looking forward to the aftermath.

[mikegraham6]

I would totally support your rationale and think it’s a whole lot more logical. There’s just something about Punisher as Cap that just seems a whole lot more crazier (ie fun) and volatile.

Does Punisher’s MAX title give any indication about the change? I know that’s been more independent of the Marvel universe, so if he did become CA I wonder if that one would be affected.

i always though that the MAX title was suppose to be in a different universe. He's an older more grissled Frank than that in the regular 616. i think if he became CA then this title would still remain independant (it did avoid the whole civil war)
i have to say, though, if they turn frank into captain america, then marvel might just have a chance at getting me to buy Punisher: War Journal (never thought i'd say that..)

[fred]

I believe that the MAX title is in a different universe. In either event, it never reflects the other things going on so I don't expect it to do it this time if that were to happen.

[mikegraham6]

Just saw a report on the local news about the death, it was a hefty 5 minutes long, i was impressed. they went into the history of the character, the propaganda aspect and the fact that he was "out of touch" with modern american society. i got a little chill down my spine and a smile on my face while watching it.

they were interviewing people at one of the local comic shops too which was pretty cool, wish i could have been there...

[labor_days]

While reading Cap #25 I kept thinking, "This can't be happening...this can't be happening...". It was a great issue.

There is no way Cap #25 isn't POW.

[jadedhalo]

um, isn't this the Speedball = Penance storyline?

[six-gun]

I want to cry, really. The only main character I care about in Marvel comics anymore is Wolverine, and he's being butchered by Way and Loeb, and treated like a castrated (non-killing) B.A. by Whedon.

Back to DC!!!!!!!!!!!!

[luthor]

Just read it...I'm impressed...those two last panels...wowsa...those were powerful...

[k-dizzle]

i think im going to be sick, and i think im going to quit reading comic books forever. maybe i will take up smoking with all the money i will save.

[six-gun]

i think im going to be sick, and i think im going to quit reading comic books forever. maybe i will take up smoking with all the money i will save.

I'm with you (except the smoking part!)

[k-dizzle]

I'm with you (except the smoking part!) I am taking this waaay worse than i thought i would. i might start smoking crack.

[mikegraham6]

I mean this statement in the best possible way:
I hope they keep Cap dead.
It's not that I don't like the character, it's just that I'm sick of Marvel and DC telling us that "dead is dead" and then finding a loop hole to get out of it (well... we never actually saw him die, well... he wasn't brought back to life, he teleported himself from a few years before he died, so he isn't really dead per se, etc.). For once, a death in the Marvel U can actually lead to some sick storylines (who will be the new cap, to name one) and it will seriously shake up the status quo, which I think is always good. Also, this was a really well-handled death, and they shouldn't mess with it anymore. Make Bucky or someone else Cap, don't bring back Steve Rodgers.
That being said, great issue and I'm looking forward to the aftermath.

i just find it funny how you bring up the whole "dead is dead" statement but in the same post you mention bucky and how he should replace steve rogers. if it should be "dead is dead" then we would never have the winter soldier.

its never going to be dead is dead, i just hope that when they bring him back it will be in a high quality story that means something, just like this issue...

[mikegraham6]

I want to cry, really. The only main character I care about in Marvel comics anymore is Wolverine, and he's being butchered by Way and Loeb, and treated like a castrated (non-killing) B.A. by Whedon.

Back to DC!!!!!!!!!!!!

guys! its brubaker! its going to be alright, i promise! hes going somewhere with this and it will only lead to better and more interesting stories, im sure of it!

[pv_2]

guys! its brubaker! its going to be alright, i promise! hes going somewhere with this and it will only lead to better and more interesting stories, im sure of it!

That's what I keep telling myself. Great, epic issue - but, man - that's my favorite character that just got killed. I think I'm gonna need some time.

[six-gun]

guys! its brubaker! its going to be alright, i promise! hes going somewhere with this and it will only lead to better and more interesting stories, im sure of it!

You're probably right, but man. This is terrible, I sat down for dinner tonight and my parents noticed that I was a little down.

"Well, um Captain America was killed today."

"That's nice son"

[fred]

You're probably right, but man. This is terrible, I sat down for dinner tonight and my parents noticed that I was a little down.

"Well, um Captain America was killed today."

"That's nice son"

Went through the same thing with my wife. I was upset about it and she said: 'so they really killed Captain America huh?' I said: 'yeah'. She asks: 'Did he deserve it?' I said: 'He's Captain ****ing America no he didn't deserve it. JEEZ'

[jo-relrollins]

Went through the same thing with my wife. I was upset about it and she said: 'so they really killed Captain America huh?' I said: 'yeah'. She asks: 'Did he deserve it?' I said: 'He's Captain ****ing America no he didn't deserve it. JEEZ'

I told my mom and she gave me a blank stare like "OK", and my best friend had no opinion at all. Guys this is major. STEVE ROGERS IS GONE!!! At least for now.

[kwok_talk]

I told my mom and she gave me a blank stare like "OK", and my best friend had no opinion at all. Guys this is major. STEVE ROGERS IS GONE!!! At least for now.

I'm glad you all are here to at least understand the loss of Cap. My friends are like, Captain who?

[jo-relrollins]

They better pick a worthy successor. Or they'll have hell to pay.

[mastap]

I'm glad you all are here to at least understand the loss of Cap. My friends are like, Captain who?

try that in canada, i would've probably been *****-slapped
but yes it was awsome hence brubaker.
**** you Civil war! Captain america is NASCAR, er, America!

[mikegraham6]

Part of my Job is pulling transcripts of news reports off of television and I just saw this piece on one of our Canadian News Networks (CTV Newsnet). Its an ABC report about Cap, i thought you guys might enjoy it:


This is a sad day in the comic book world Captain America has undertaken his last mission at least for now. After 66 years of crime fighting, the stars and stripes wearing superhero is shot dead in the latest issue of his namesake comic but as Bill Blakemore reports many speculate Captain America will be back.

Reporter: Born in the golden age of comics in 1941 during World War II Captain America was America's supersoldier created to battle the Nazis.

Quesada: We're talking about a character that wears the American flag.

Reporter: He was a kid too skinny to join up so they injected him with syrum to make him stronger and faster.

Quesada: His heart is spirit.

Reporter: In the end he was just a man. In the comic published today Captain America dies. Killed not by a supervillain but something more familiar a sniper.

Quesada: He is a man out of time and a man from a very different kind of war and a very different kind of place.

Reporter: Marvel had struggled with the character. In the years following Vietnam when patriotism was more openly questioned. After 9/11 they released a tribute book for charity (HEROES). It was his image that endured. The spirit of the country looking out over the devastation. But unlike World War II, the war on terror that followed was not so clear-cut. And -- an unpopular war with no Hitler for Captain America to bring down. Is it just his time? Comic book heroes can have a mysterious immortality. Marvel once killed Jean Grey one of the X-Men, made famous in recent movies, years later in the comics she reappeared and even Superman, in 1993 the DC comics icon was killed and he too was resurrected. So the question remains, is this really the end for Captain America? Bill Blakemore, ABC news.

[grandolephil]

Um, before all the wacky uninformed social commentary, may I submit the following...

Who is Ronin?

[fred]

Um, before all the wacky uninformed social commentary, may I submit the following...

Who is Ronin?

welcome to the board

I think the Ronin question has gotten a lot more difficult to answer now. This is strange because clearly there's at least one less option.

[k-dizzle]

Um, before all the wacky uninformed social commentary, may I submit the following...

Who is Ronin? We dont know yet, but we are pretty sure its not Steve Rogers.

[grandolephil]

Thanks Fred,

Ronin is not Steve Rogers, Iron Fist, Spiderman, or Dardevil. It's a pretty short list from there, of those who would be Avenger-caliber.

[mikegraham6]

Thanks Fred,

Ronin is not Steve Rodgers, Iron Fist, Spiderman, or Dardevil. It's a pretty short list from there, of those who would be Avenger-caliber.

well i wouldn't have exactly placed Echo as "avenger-caliber" either, so don't underestimate anyone in the marvel u.

[fred]

what's the deal with Falcon? Where's he at in all of this? I feel now like I've spent waaaaay too much time on all of this and now I'm too close to it to remember certain grand-scale details. He's a good candidate right?

[briguy]

Ronin is Hawkeye, no doubt.

[acomicbookgirl]

I'm glad you all are here to at least understand the loss of Cap. My friends are like, Captain who?

I came home, went online and got an IM from my cousin and he asked me "Did they really kill Captain America with a ___?" and I said yes and he was like WTF?

[humphrey-lee]

Um, before all the wacky uninformed social commentary, may I submit the following...

Who is Ronin?

It's still Moon Knight IMO. If Cap comes back I figure he'll be Cosmic Cubed back into existence or, uh, can't they just clone him back into existence from the Red Skull, just like Skull was cloned back out of him? It'll be something stupid and comic book like, that's all I know. Oh, and I figure it'll happen just at the end of World War Hulk.

[piscespaul]

This is why I love my job...

I walk into the group home I work at this morning all in black in mourning.

One of my clients who never speaks comes up to me and puts his hand on my shoulder and says

" I saw it on the news, I 'm sorry for your loss."

[k33k3r]

I don't even know what to say just that last night reading list was started with this and I read it twice and then just sat there in amazement and shock. Brubaker proves his skills yet again.

[grandolephil]

I can see Cap being dead, or rather deactivated, but not Steve Rogers. Marvel just doesn't know how to handle the star-spangled Avenger. With their flagship character being Spiderman and now voices will cry for more popularity for Cap.

Does Cap really equal Batman in popularity? The triumverate Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman cannot be equaled except for Spiderman and Hulk in terms of public knowledge.

Superman = Spiderman
Batman = ?
Wonder Woman = Hulk

Would Marvel want Spidey taken down to number two? Are there more Spider-fans than Cap-fans? They're trying to extend the public consciousness of what Cap stands for and they can't even put it into words.

[kwok_talk]

Would Marvel want Spidey taken down to number two? Are there more Spider-fans than Cap-fans? They're trying to extend the public consciousness of what Cap stands for and they can't even put it into words.

I definitely would think there are 10x more Spiderman fans than Cap fans.

[k33k3r]

Wolverine coudl possibly be Batmans equal. I do understand what you are saying but I think part of this whole story was to reaquant people with Cap and his morals and ideals.

[xyzzy]

Wolverine coudl possibly be Batmans equal. I do understand what you are saying but I think part of this whole story was to reaquant people with Cap and his morals and ideals.

No way. Nobody knows who Wolverine is, relative to the all stars like Batman and Spider-man.

[iSteve]

No way. Nobody knows who Wolverine is, relative to the all stars like Batman and Spider-man.

I think that with the exposure of the three X-Men movies, a lot of people know who Wolverine is.

[k33k3r]

What generation are you refering to then. I'm not saying I agree with myself hence the "could possibly" The newest generation I doubt many know who Wonder Woman is and would probably better know Batman and the Teen Titans quite possibly even more than Superman. Gotta love TV. I would say Spider-Man, Wolverine, Hulk and Avengers for Marvel because of the amount of movies they have put out.

I guess it all depends on who you ask.

[fred]

I love Wolverine but my grandparents know who Batman is

[k33k3r]

Exactly my point. And I'm sure mine do as well

[xyzzy]

I think that with the exposure of the three X-Men movies, a lot of people know who Wolverine is.

More people than before, but it doesn't even approach the level enjoyed by Superman, Batman and Spider-man. Hell, even the Hulk is more recongizable than Wolverine. Wolverine does beat Captain America, hands down, though.

[fred]

I love Wolverine, but did the Ramones ever do a song about him?

[k33k3r]

Better yet has he even been mentioned in any songs. I know Cap and Spidey have.

[xyzzy]

Better yet has he even been mentioned in any songs. I know Cap and Spidey have.

http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0005/movies/mp3s/XMenTheme_Jewel.mp3

[fred]

Spider-man spider-man friendly neighborhood spider-man

[conorkilpatrick]

http://www.webpersonal.net/harley/Agenda/Easy%20rider.jpg

Did someone say Captain America, man?

[iSteve]

http://www.webpersonal.net/harley/Agenda/Easy%20rider.jpg

Did someone say Captain America, man?

One of the coolest motorcycles ever!

[fred]

one of the coolest images ever

[k33k3r]

That is a great image

[conorkilpatrick]

Brubaker's blog (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=100089572&blogID=238614062&MyToken=c839ddc4-5a70-4aac-b368-4387d4afdaa3) reaction to all the craziness.

[fred]

that was amusing

"I'll be carrying"

he sounds like antiFanboy Jon

[conorkilpatrick]

If you're in Ireland, stop by here (http://www.captainamericas.com/start.htm) and have a pint in ol' Steve's honor.

[fred]

If you're in Ireland, stop by here (http://www.captainamericas.com/start.htm) and have a pint in ol' Steve's honor.

that's funny. It looks like an Irish Applebees or something

hey wasn't that called Bennigans? nevermind

[iSteve]

that's funny. It looks like an Irish Applebees or something

hey wasn't that called Bennigans? nevermind

I think it looks like an Irish Roy Rogers. Boys, let's hoist one in Cap's memory.

[jo-relrollins]

http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0005/movies/mp3s/XMenTheme_Jewel.mp3

Lets hope Caps song dos not sound like this one i could not stop rolling.

[fred]

that was really funny. I just listened to it.

My Muuutant Chromosomes and
The metal in my bones and

[kwok_talk]

oh my. that was hilarious

[k-dizzle]

I love Wolverine, but did the Ramones ever do a song about him? The Entombed. http://www.amazon.com/Wolverine-Blues-Entombed/dp/B00000583H the radio promo had Wolverine on the cover. http://www.earache.com/catalog/mosh082.html

[fred]

nice. how did I miss that one?

[mikegraham6]

We were all pretty sure that marvel was gong to whack someone at the end of civil war. In fact i've heard that they were expecting something shocking in the issue and the fact that nothing happened led to a sort of anti-climatic ending to the whole mini-series. So I'm wondering why Marvel decided to kill cap in his own book. Trust me, im glad that it was done in CAPTAIN AMERICA #25, mainly for the reason that one of my favorite writers got to tackle it head on, but don't you think it would have added a lot more to CIVIL WAR had it happened in the final issue instead? Marvel's handling of this storyline doesn't seem to fit the normal comic "Mega-Event" formula, have the biggest moment of the crossover happen outside of the miniseries just strikes me as bizarre.....
What do you guys think?

[xyzzy]

We were all pretty sure that marvel was gong to whack someone at the end of civil war. In fact i've heard that they were expecting something shocking in the issue and the fact that nothing happened led to a sort of anti-climatic ending to the whole mini-series. So I'm wondering why Marvel decided to kill cap in his own book. Trust me, im glad that it was done in CAPTAIN AMERICA #25, mainly for the reason that one of my favorite writers got to tackle it head on, but don't you think it would have added a lot more to CIVIL WAR had it happened in the final issue instead? Marvel's handling of this storyline doesn't seem to fit the normal comic "Mega-Event" formula, have the biggest moment of the crossover happen outside of the miniseries just strikes me as bizarre.....
What do you guys think?

I liked the way they handled it. When nobody died at in CW7 (at least no big names), I think people relaxed a bit. That meant when Cap died in Cap 25, the hit was harder. People let their guard down. Of course, that would have worked better if it hadn't been leaked to the press, first, but I still like the idea there.

[fred]

I'm glad that Brubaker wrote it because Cap has been mishandled by Jenkins and Millar of late. He deserved a fitting send-off.

Joe Q said that he died in CA #25 rather than CW#7 because they didn't want CW to be remembered as the story where Cap died. I'm not sure how much different that is but this is what they're saying.

[mikegraham6]

I liked the way they handled it. When nobody died at in CW7 (at least no big names), I think people relaxed a bit. That meant when Cap died in Cap 25, the hit was harder. People let their guard down. Of course, that would have worked better if it hadn't been leaked to the press, first, but I still like the idea there.

I agree with you. before CW7 i was almost positive that either cap or iron man was going to be taken out. but when nothing happened (and the fact that the Fallen Son solicitation involved both characters) i figured nothing was going to happen. Had i read that moment (the bullet through the throat) at the end of CW i wouldn't have had the same reaction, i definitely wouldn't have thrown my book down and yelled "HOLY SHIT!" i would have expected it more in CW. putting it in cap put the ball back in marvel's court in terms of surprise.

[mikegraham6]

I'm glad that Brubaker wrote it because Cap has been mishandled by Jenkins and Millar of late. He deserved a fitting send-off.

Joe Q said that he died in CA #25 rather than CW#7 because they didn't want CW to be remembered as the story where Cap died. I'm not sure how much different that is but this is what they're saying.

ti just seems wierd from a marketing standpoint, and god knows marvel has been marketing this shit out of Civil War. in terms of having Brubaker write the send-off, there really wasn't too much Cap in book right? he probably said like 15 words at most, but i guess brubaker DOES deserve it more than millar and DEFINITELY more than Jenkins

[fred]

think of this marketing idea:

the story of Cap's death now spreads over 2 trades rather than 1

this goes double when you consider that Brubaker more or less ignored CW in the Cap book

[k-dizzle]

ti just seems wierd from a marketing standpoint, and god knows marvel has been marketing this shit out of Civil War. in terms of having Brubaker write the send-off, there really wasn't too much Cap in book right? he probably said like 15 words at most, but i guess brubaker DOES deserve it more than millar and DEFINITELY more than Jenkins I think it was a smart move to Kill him in CAp 25 because (like you said before) nobody could see it coming. a lot of people read Civil War and just about eveybody felt let down by the ending. I have been thinking about it non stop for two days now and Im kind of sick of it. He will Rise Again!!!!!!!

[iSteve]

I've already said it once, but I see Capt. America's death as the real and legitimate ending to the Civil War series. The only way the series works is if you count CA 25.

[mikegraham6]

I've already said it once, but I see Capt. America's death as the real and legitimate ending to the Civil War series. The only way the series works is if you count CA 25.

i agree 100%. this can be said with a lot of the Civil War series. I think some of the best moments in the CW were outside the main mini. there were some great parts/revelations in SPIDER-MAN, WOLVERINE, and yes even FRONTLINE (the beginning anyway) that i think Marvel would be wise to release a trade of the most important tie-ins, you know, an issue of spidey here, an issue of wolvie there, i know it will never happen but it should and would probably be a good idea on marvel's part

[watsonglenn]

Here is what upsets me. I know Cap will be back so thats not it.

Why does Superman get killed in an epic conflict over 7 issues with an inhuman unstoppable monster. Superman gets full page spreads of titanic punches that shatter skyscrapers. His bravery and love for Lois are etched on his face.

Cap goes out like a punk being gunned down Jack Ruby style.

If Marvel is going to even temporally kill (and come on, of course its temporary) a character like cap they owe it to the readers to do it on a grand style with a meaningful death that might actually make us cry like Superman's death did.

They had one chance to kill Captain America in a great lasting story. They can and will of course bring him back but they can never really do it again and they blew this one opportunity for real drama on this pretentious whining bull crap.

Yeah I know Cap pushed that guy out of the way and took the bullet. I know his last thoughts were of the safety of others but dammit that is not enough. I want Cap to go down swinging and not just swinging but winning.

Is that too much to ask?

[iSteve]

Here is what upsets me. I know Cap will be back so thats not it.

Why does Superman get killed in an epic conflict over 7 issues with an inhuman unstoppable monster. Superman gets full page spreads of titanic punches that shatter skyscrapers. His bravery and love for Lois are etched on his face.

Cap goes out like a punk being gunned down Jack Ruby style.

If Marvel is going to even temporally kill (and come on, of course its temporary) a character like cap they owe it to the readers to do it on a grand style with a meaningful death that might actually make us cry like Superman's death did.

They had one chance to kill Captain America in a great lasting story. They can and will of course bring him back but they can never really do it again and they blew this one opportunity for real drama on this pretentious whining bull crap.

Yeah I know Cap pushed that guy out of the way and took the bullet. I know his last thoughts were of the safety of others but dammit that is not enough. I want Cap to go down swinging and not just swinging but winning.

Is that too much to ask?

No, it's not.

[watsonglenn]

Brubaker's blog (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=100089572&blogID=238614062&MyToken=c839ddc4-5a70-4aac-b368-4387d4afdaa3) reaction to all the craziness.

Brubaker: "Not so overwhelming is the amount of people who called me an asshole and said I sucked and that I should be fired, etc, etc, etc. No death threats as of yet, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed."

I don't know if he is an asshole 'though he would not be the first comic creator to be one, but the story did suck. It just flat out was not good enough. You wanna kill Cap and go on NPR, ok fine, but do it right. Have a sense of occasion and history for Christ's sake.

Ya know what, he is an ass.

[iSteve]

I personally think that Cap 25 was well done. I was moved by it. But I understand your point. I could how it might have been written differently. But that doesn't mean that Brubaker did a bad job. Given what he had to work with from CW, I thought he did a great job.

[labor_days]

I can understand Cap fans wishing he had gone down swinging. But Cap ian't exactly Superman. Granted, Cap's an extremely capable individual but bullets can still kill him. Cap is a man not an alien.

Superman's death arc wasn't the best written of comics either. Not sure if you really want to hold that up as a great "heroic death".

[watsonglenn]

Ebay already has Cap #25 issues going for $59.

[watsonglenn]

Superman's death arc wasn't the best written of comics either. Not sure if you really want to hold that up as a great "heroic death".

I do. I think that story holds up very well. The art was not my favroite but the fight was classic.

[mikegraham6]

Yeah I know Cap pushed that guy out of the way and took the bullet. I know his last thoughts were of the safety of others but dammit that is not enough. I want Cap to go down swinging and not just swinging but winning.

Is that too much to ask?

I agree with some things your saying, but cap did go down winning. He won his final battle (Civil War 7) he just gave up and lost the war.....

LABOR DAYS- Love the avatar, that shit is F'ed up :D, that scene almost made me puke when i watched it in my film class........

[conorkilpatrick]

Ya know what, he is an ass.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You don't like the story - fine. But don't call the guy names because you disagree with his choices.

[conorkilpatrick]

Ebay already has Cap #25 issues going for $59.

Sets have been going for over $200 (http://www.ifanboy.com/archive/weblog/bye_bye_cap_hel.html).

[labor_days]

LABOR DAYS- Love the avatar, that shit is F'ed up , that scene almost made me puke when i watched it in my film class.Thanks. Good movie but I wasn't going for shock value! Was listening to the Pixies and thought, "Oh. That'd make a good avatar". And so it goes.

(off topic, i know.)