Is 'Watchmen' Timeless?

[horatio616]

This came up in another thread and I was curious what others might think. I read Watchmen when it first came out in the 80s and thought it was the greatest comic of all time right beside The Dark Knight Returns. I'm curious about today's readers' reaction to it. Did you find it glorious, or overrated?


If you have read Watchmen in the last 5 years or so, let me know what you thought of it.

[fred]

I read it for the first time in the last five years and I like it, but have always considered it overrated.

[mikegraham6]

no way is it overrated, not only is it my favorite comic but its my favorite book. it a great story that i think is still relevant today. just replace commies with terrorists/middle east and there you go.

just picked up the absolute edition last week and am looking forward to reading this book for probably the 10th time. i cant wait to see what the "bonus features" are! but i think the lack alan moore but be a strike against it.

[k33k3r]

I am reading it for the 3rd time currently. Def. not overrated and I plan to pick up the Absolute version soon as well.

[mikegraham6]

I am reading it for the 3rd time currently. Def. not overrated and I plan to pick up the Absolute version soon as well.

i read my original trade so much that it was falling apart, thats the main reason i picked up the absolute, but now my watchmen is all big and pretty :D

[k33k3r]

I got my graphic novel as a hand me down so it's pretty beat up and once I get my new one I plan to hand it off to someone else.

[mikegraham6]

I got my graphic novel as a hand me down so it's pretty beat up and once I get my new one I plan to hand it off to someone else.

thats my plan as well, i want to give it to someone who hasn't read comics before, try to hook them into the medium

[k33k3r]

That's just mean becuase once they've read it and then come and ask you for more like it what are you going to tell them. Sorry I gave you the best there is to offer now go find your own. I mean you can point them to other stuff but nothing like Watchmen

[antifanboy-jon]

Its not for everyone?

Most people that don't have the cognitive capacity to understand all of the concepts will probably try to say its overrated.

It is clearly not overrated. Its one of the best pieces of literature ever of all time.

[mikegraham6]

Its not for everyone?

Most people that don't have the cognitive capacity to understand all of the concepts will probably try to say its overrated.

It is clearly not overrated. Its one of the best pieces of literature ever of all time.

occording to TIME magazine
http://www.time.com/time/2005/100books/0,24459,watchmen,00.html
but really, who listens to them??:rolleyes:

[antifanboy-jon]

Fred, if watchmen is overrated, what do you find is a timeless title in comics?
(don't take this the wrong way either, I really want to know)

[xyzzy]

Its not for everyone?

Most people that don't have the cognitive capacity to understand all of the concepts will probably try to say its overrated.

It is clearly not overrated. Its one of the best pieces of literature ever of all time.

Wow. That's a little harsh. You think that anybody who doesn't like Watchmen is mentally impaired? This is a subjective evaluation. If someone doesn't like it, that just means that they don't like it. It doesn't mean that they aren't smart enough to enjoy it.

[mikegraham6]

Wow. That's a little harsh. You think that anybody who doesn't like Watchmen is mentally impaired? This is a subjective evaluation. If someone doesn't like it, that just means that they don't like it. It doesn't mean that they aren't smart enough to enjoy it.

ive got to agree with that statement :D
but of course i like to generalize :rolleyes:

[ekval]

Honestly, I've never read it despite 20 years or so in comics and it is comments about how I must be an idiot if I don't like it to be a good reason not to (am I afraid of being an idiot in the eyes of someone? wouldn't be the first or last time). Every time I'm going to pick it up I figure there is no way it can live up to it.

[fred]

Fred, if watchmen is overrated, what do you find is a timeless title in comics?
(don't take this the wrong way either, I really want to know)

I think that V For Vendetta is timeless, also Uncanny X-Men from Giant Size #1 to UC #155. I don't think the Watchmen thing, for me, is that it isn't timeless. I like it, but it doesn't reach me on as deep a level as other things do. And I'm not bragging or anything, but my IQ is about 160 so it's not an intelligence thing.

[antifanboy-jon]

See what I mean about the stereotyping thing?

YEAH I WENT THERE

I'm trying to prove a point in two different threads simultaneously.

But REALLY, if you didn't like watchmen, you probably don't know how to read

[mikegraham6]

I think that V For Vendetta is timeless, also Uncanny X-Men from Giant Size #1 to UC #155. I don't think the Watchmen thing, for me, is that it isn't timeless. I like it, but it doesn't reach me on as deep a level as other things do. And I'm not bragging or anything, but my IQ is about 160 so it's not an intelligence thing.

it does very much rely on the paranoia of the cold war and and is set within a specific time period of the 80 (russia invading afghanistan) but its also in a "alternate dimension" so as long as you have a basic knowledge of the history of the time period, i wouldn't say it dated, but i can see where your coming from

[ekval]

I feel almost compelled to read it and hate it. I hope I can even remain objective...

[fred]

it does very much rely on the paranoia of the cold war and and is set within a specific time period of the 80 (russia invading afghanistan) but its also in a "alternate dimension" so as long as you have a basic knowledge of the history of the time period, i wouldn't say it dated, but i can see where your coming from

it's not that though. I'm completely used to understanding the background and or cultural differences necessary to a work before reading it. It is 'of a time', but it's not inaccessibly so.

[mikegraham6]

it's not that though. I'm completely used to understanding the background and or cultural differences necessary to a work before reading it. It is 'of a time', but it's not inaccessibly so.

if anything i think dark knight is more overrated, i always enjoyed year one a lot more and have read that numerous times. i think DKR is dated in the costumes and tv comentary and overall dark feel (although i do credit it for creating this feel, its been done to death so many times that its all i can think of when i read it)

I KNOW FRED! Frank miller is god, im sorry......

[fred]

All 3 are good books

[mikegraham6]

All 3 are good books

which do you like better? year one or DKR?

i thought that Batman Begins did itself a real disservice by leaving out some amazing scenes from year one (when batman raids the mansion and gives his speech to the leaders of gotham...AWESOME!)

[k33k3r]

I think that V For Vendetta is timeless, also Uncanny X-Men from Giant Size #1 to UC #155. I don't think the Watchmen thing, for me, is that it isn't timeless. I like it, but it doesn't reach me on as deep a level as other things do. And I'm not bragging or anything, but my IQ is about 160 so it's not an intelligence thing.

Agreed! V is an amazing book and have read it more than Watchmen.

[kwok_talk]

occording to TIME magazine
http://www.time.com/time/2005/100books/0,24459,watchmen,00.html
but really, who listens to them??:rolleyes:

I DO! It's my job as Man of the Year.

[pv_2]

if anything i think dark knight is more overrated, i always enjoyed year one a lot more and have read that numerous times. i think DKR is dated in the costumes and tv comentary and overall dark feel (although i do credit it for creating this feel, its been done to death so many times that its all i can think of when i read it)

While I've been meaning to reread Watchmen, I did re-read DKR only a few weeks ago, and entertained some of the same thoughts - I don't know if I'd go quite as far as to say overrated, due to its influence and beauty. But you could make a pretty good argument that it's not very timeless, it felt very much born of the Reagan era (not unlike some of my fav music from that time). And so it takes some mental time travel to truly appreciate it.

[fred]

which do you like better? year one or DKR?

i thought that Batman Begins did itself a real disservice by leaving out some amazing scenes from year one (when batman raids the mansion and gives his speech to the leaders of gotham...AWESOME!)

I like year one better but it's pretty close

The Long Halloween and Dark Victory are up there too

[alexg]

I think its hard for DKR to age well because that book basically set the tone for all batbooks since, so first time readers who are somewhat familiar with Batman going to DKR now might not see what all the fuss is about, and certainly it can't have the same impact as it did when it first came out. Watchmen cannot have the same impact either certainly, because it too has influenced everything that has come after. But I think if for no other reason, Watchmen ages a bit better because the characters themselves are not familiar to new readers. I've heard Alan Moore interviewed on a call in show and he expressed surprise when a caller said he had recently read watchmen and found it fantastic. Moore said he was surprised and glad that it can still effect people. These two books have been put on such a high pedastal now though that it's probably hard for them to live up to new readers expectations.

[mikegraham6]

OFF TOPIC

Ive just got celebrate because i noticed i am now a senior member, YAY!:D

sorry.....

[fred]

OFF TOPIC

Ive just got celebrate because i noticed i am now a senior member, YAY!:D

sorry.....

welcome to the ranks of the under-productive

[mikegraham6]

welcome to the ranks of the under-productive

i know its sad really, far too much spare time on my hands both at home and at work..

[kwok_talk]

OFF TOPIC

Ive just got celebrate because i noticed i am now a senior member, YAY!:D

sorry.....

It's a fun club! Welcome!

[acomicbookgirl]

I've read it and liked it but my all time Alan Moore book is V for Vendetta... :)

[xyzzy]

The thing is, although I can recognize the impact and artistry in Watchmen and V for Vendetta, the fact of the matter is that I enjoy Top 10 more. Particularly Top 10: The Forty Niners. For my money, that's Moore's best book.

[kwok_talk]

While I've been meaning to reread Watchmen, I did re-read DKR only a few weeks ago, and entertained some of the same thoughts - I don't know if I'd go quite as far as to say overrated, due to its influence and beauty. But you could make a pretty good argument that it's not very timeless, it felt very much born of the Reagan era (not unlike some of my fav music from that time). And so it takes some mental time travel to truly appreciate it.

Could the same thing be said about Watchmen? I haven’t read it (only reading the synopsis from Wikipedia), but isn’t it heavily influenced by the Nixon / coldwar era? When I was reading the plot summary, it seemed somewhat steeped in the history / environment at the time, which would make it more vulnerable to being dated than an admittedly futuristic story like Dark Knight. Take this with a huge grain of salt, since I haven’t even read Watchmen…

[tokenuser]

Could the same thing be said about Watchmen? I haven’t read it (only reading the synopsis from Wikipedia), but isn’t it heavily influenced by the Nixon / coldwar era? When I was reading the plot summary, it seemed somewhat steeped in the history / environment at the time, which would make it more vulnerable to being dated than an admittedly futuristic story like Dark Knight. Take this with a huge grain of salt, since I haven’t even read Watchmen…It is set in a "Golden Era" - that quasi 1920's Art Nouveau/Deco sorta style where technology wasn't miniturised it was HUGE. So in termsn of physical settings, it wasn't specific. In political terms, the Nixon/cold war influence is there as an undertone, but more in the style of a paranoid government with an unseen enemy.

As such - it really COULD be set in the early years of the 21st century. The story is pretty timeless, you just need to update the setting. The writing and ink work are also top notch and not dated at all. Overall, it is a story that really does stand up well.

[fred]

I think that any novel that isn't set in the present can be less accessible for the average reader than one that is.

THIS IS NOT A BAD THING BY DEFAULT

Many works of fiction need to be properly researched and thought about before you can completely understand or enjoy them. For me, it makes it more satisfying because of the fresh and different perspective I'm able to gain.

[mikegraham6]

so is league of extrodinary gentlemen outdated???:D

[humphrey-lee]

I think it's as "timeless" as the Godfather is... take that as you will...

[horatio616]

While I've been meaning to reread Watchmen, I did re-read DKR only a few weeks ago, and entertained some of the same thoughts - I don't know if I'd go quite as far as to say overrated, due to its influence and beauty. But you could make a pretty good argument that it's not very timeless, it felt very much born of the Reagan era (not unlike some of my fav music from that time). And so it takes some mental time travel to truly appreciate it.

I think the problem with DKR is that it's been imitated many more times than Watchmen and taken to the nth degree with Miller's own Sin City so some of it may seem a bit corny by today's standards. Me, I still dig it.

DK2 on the other hand...

[cam-]

I can say that friends of mine who have recently read Watchmen RAVE about it,

One saying "it's more literature than comic" (which in turn got others to read it)

I say BOTH!

Anyways, timeless? At least until now...

[k-dizzle]

Is Watchmen Timeless? Yes.

[jgg0610]

I just read Watchmen for the first time within the last year, and it was amazing. It's one of those books that changes how you look at comics no matter what type of comics you read. Timeless Yes.

[jaflanagan]

"Watchman makes me want to be a better man."

http://www.filmreference.com/images/sjff_03_img1249.jpg

Actually, every time I read it; and it does get better every time you read it; it makes me wish more comics were better. When you read it through again, you see the craft in that thing that you didn't even notice the first time. I think it's the most important comic book I own.

[mikegraham6]

i think conor needs to read the pirate comic section of the watchmen, its great! :D

[k-dizzle]

"Watchman makes me want to be a better man

Actually, every time I read it; and it does get better every time you read it; it makes me wish more comics were better. When you read it through again, you see the craft in that thing that you didn't even notice the first time. I think it's the most important comic book I own. Watchmen makes me want to sleep 300 yards away from men who are trained to kill me.

[helen-bot]

I don't think it's overrated - I read it for the first time about 5 or 6 years ago and absolutely loved it.

I'd stoppped reading comics at the time, hadn't bothered with them since I'd hit my teens...and then I was given the Watchmen. It completely turned me round - I got back into comics more voraciously than ever! The Watchmen is the best thing to give someone you're trying to get into comics, hands down.

I do think that it has dated slightly, but that's not neccisarily something that will stop it from being enjoyed by new audiences - no more than visual datedness (word??) has effected Blade Runner or Brasil for example.

[billy-parker]

Moore deconstructed the hero archetype, and made them ironic and dark.

Wow, ironic and dark. That's great, but "Greatest comic of all time!"? No.

I wouldn't even call it a superhero book. It has heroes in it, but it's nothing like a hero book.

Avengers, Justice League, X-Men, Fantastic Four, those are heroes books.

Watchmen is a murder mystery that turns into a "War is bad, I hate America, Americans are poor, free healthcare for everyone" book. So freakin' lame.

[humphrey-lee]

The truly great works in any medium are always timeless, because the quality of writing, storytelling, the methodology will always shine through, even if it takes place in a bi-gone era. Watchmen will have a little bit more problem, because it reveled in its era, while a lot of your more classical works, like the Godfather, or Schindler's List, or whatnot took the historical approach, and the retrospective approach holds up way better than the "this is happening now" approach. But it still shouldn't matter. Is "The Catcher in the Rye" timeless? "To Kill a Mockingbird" (the book and the movie)? Well, then if those are, so is Watchmen.

The book has been surpassed, the great ones always do eventually because those that come after it will have that to add to their arsenal, as well as everything that came before it, and stuff that came after it. But it still hasn't been trumped by much, and a lot of the trumpers came from Moore himself anyways, so it's still holding up just fine.

[keithm]

I think that knowing the context and polotics that Watchmen was written as a response to definately makes it better, but you don't need to know anything, and the work is definately timeless. It works on SO many levels that it makes my head spin. On the surface level, it's just a great story. As a political allegory it's poignant. As an example of the craft, it's unbeatable.

I do disagree with people when they say that it's the book to give anyone who wants to get into comics. I think that if you don't truly appreciate the medium, most of what Moore's really doing will go over your head. I do cite it as an example of why I love comics so much and why they're a valid art form.

Moore shows that there are things that you can only do in comics. The chapter with Dr. Manhattan on Mars could only work as a comic. The constant jumps through time would be disorienting and lose their impact in a film. This is what scares me so much about the movie, no matter who's doing it.

[zack]

Well, I've only been reading comics for 10 years now, and I have to say that Watchmen is one of the(if not the) greatest stories ever. Not only does it's quality blow my mind, but to think that it was written in the 80s... What a bombshell. It's so thick with layers and symbols that you can get something different from it every time you read it.

[horatio616]

I learned something from Brian K Vaughn in the latest issue of Wizard that I never knew. Watchmen Chapter 5, "Fearful Symmetry" is written so that the first panel mirrors the last panel, the second panel mirrors the second-to-last panel, and so forth. Is this common knowledge? Yet another example of why Watchmen is the Frosted Mini-Wheats of comics.

[cam-]

That's cool, I'll have to take a look at that tonight.

[labor_days]

This board has the best moderating team I've ever seen. Bravo, iFanboy mods.

[mikegraham6]

i knew that actually, one other reason why watchmen is timeless:D

[paper]

Is this the night that Paper finally read's Watchmen?

Or will the allure of Black Snake Moan win out?

[fred]

you should watch Black Snake Moan

[paper]

Locked and loaded.

[fred]

nice. I need to see that again.

[esophagus]

I learned something from Brian K Vaughn in the latest issue of Wizard that I never knew. Watchmen Chapter 5, "Fearful Symmetry" is written so that the first panel mirrors the last panel, the second panel mirrors the second-to-last panel, and so forth. Is this common knowledge? Yet another example of why Watchmen is the Frosted Mini-Wheats of comics.My firned informed me one day, made me reread it for like the fifth time to notice. They aren't exact though, which through me off. They're just generally alike.

As for Watchmen being overrated, no way. It's absolutely amazing. It doesn't matter how many times I read it, it gets better everytime. Plus, lately I have started reading some of the pirate dialogue. I only ever make it through the first few panels of it before giving up.

[miyamotofreak]

I do think it is the greatest comic book ever. However, I think it was meant to be very contemporary therefore it's not truly timeless (and that is why i wanted Hayter's Watchmen movie).

[horatio616]

I do think it is the greatest comic book ever. However, I think it was meant to be very contemporary therefore it's not truly timeless (and that is why i wanted Hayter's Watchmen movie).

Rarely are things that are truly revolutionary also timeless.

[diabhol]

If you have read Watchmen in the last 5 years or so, let me know what you thought of it.

It is definitely great.

It's definitely not timeless (as if that matters). It's dated as hell.

Overrrated? Possibly, but I think most comic readers should check it out and see for themselves.



[M]

[thomas-katers]

I think it is really very good. The storytelling is gripping and unique

Sometime works of fiction need to be tied to a time to do what they set out to do. Watchmen is a reaction to what Comics were doing at that point and what the REAL world was like. It is part of the makeup of the book. Sometimes storytelling just has to work that way.

[paper]

Can we do a refresher? What are your favorite chapters in the book?

[jgg0610]

Paper, have you actually finished Watchmen at this point? I can't remember.

[paper]

I'm like halfway at this point. I'm on the symmetry story.

[rntaboy]

I can't say either way whether Watchmen will be timeless or not, as I feel we are not far enough removed from the time it is based in and the political climate it derives its tone from. But, I thing you can make the argument that fifty years from now, if the sense of imposing governments on the brink of annihilating one another if far from the public consciousness, Watchmen will stand up as a excellent representation of the time it was created, and much like Godard's Breathless, will have become timeless.

[thomas-katers]

The layouts themselves are a bit of a treat. Gibbons really ups the tension by using the nine panel grid in a some really cool ways. There are no "wasted" full page images...any time a panel breaks the nine panel system it is of significance to both the story and the pacing of the story. Alot of times the tension just gets built in such a tight pace, only to get released in a really great huge panel.

[six-gun]

Is there an essay that definitively breaks down why Watchmen is so good.

[paper]

Great works usually speak for themselves...

[rntaboy]

I'm not trying to be rude, but I can't comprehend how someone could see Watchmen as not good. The story is brilliant, the art is great. I can barely wrap my head around people thinking it is overrated. I mean, I don't think Godfather is the best film ever, I probably wouldn't even put it in my top twenty, but I can certainly see why any person might say it is the best, and thus I don't think it is overrated.

[thomas-katers]

Great works usually speak for themselves...

I always like some good literary criticism. It never convinces me to like something I hate, but often it can point out techniques or devices that you miss or weren't concious of.

[paper]

I was just speaking directly to the way he phrased the question.

That said, literary and film criticism are rabbit holes. I think when it starts getting so deep that we're drilling for absolutes we've gone about a mile too deep. There's a point where it stops being fun, and we're talking about an entertainment medium here.

/tangent

[thomas-katers]

One literary criticism makes you larger
And one literary criticsm makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When she's half way through Watchmen.


Sorry...you said Rabbit hole and this is what comes out.

[paper]

Also rabbits.

Just so we're clear, I'm not sure whether I like or dislike Watchmen. Since I'm only halfway through. So far I like what I've read. Especially the Dr. Manhattan material.

[kahunablair]

Also rabbits.

Just so we're clear, I'm not sure whether I like or dislike Watchmen. Since I'm only halfway through. So far I like what I've read. Especially the Dr. Manhattan material.

Half way through the first time I read it, I personally wasn't feeling the book. I also didn't hate it, but I couldn't see what all the fuss was about.
On the other hand after I finished it I realized why it's thought of so highly.

I like it a lot, but I don't love it. I respect what it did for the comic industry and the things that changed because of it.

I compare it to Steamboat Willie. To the general public it was the first cartoon to have true sound and that was ground breaking. Most cartoons after that had to have synchronized sound or they were considered past their time. So it affected the way all other animation was done from that point foward, and people knew it was the reason for the change.
Now looking back on it today, we know that:
a)it wasn't really the first cartoon to have synchronized sound, just the most popular one
b) if you were to show it to a kid today, they might giggle but they'd rather switch the channel to Nickelodeon. On Nickelodeon, are cartoons that have taken what Steamboot Willie did and expanded it to the Nth degree.

So to me, if you don't know the history of Watchman and just read it, you'd think that the book isn't nearly as exciting as some of the other books that took what it was and expanded it.

[six-gun]

Ok, I might be ripped to shreds over this, but I almost don't want to go into Watchmen as an entertainment experience as much as a learning experience, almost the one-two punch of it and Understanding Comics to really cement my ability to be critical of the medium and I think the best way to do that would be to read Watchmen, write down my thoughts and compare them to a respected essay on the topic.

[paper]

Sounds valid to me.

[six-gun]

Sounds valid to me.

Thanks, I mean, I really think that I'll enjoy it, but that's not my first priority

[paper]

Screw hedonism.

They like being screwed anyway. Those hedonists.

I wonder if Watchmen is the best teaching tool though. Hmm.

That gives me an idea....

[six-gun]

I finished Watchmen a week ago and I'm a bit curious how you skipped the pirate part Conor, it's pretty intertwined with the rest of the story. I actually tried to read an issue and skip that part, then come back for it later, but I kept being drawn back to it because it was right there.

[esophagus]

I finished Watchmen a week ago and I'm a bit curious how you skipped the pirate part Conor, it's pretty intertwined with the rest of the story. I actually tried to read an issue and skip that part, then come back for it later, but I kept being drawn back to it because it was right there.I found it pretty easy to skip. It's not really intertwined, it just kind of puts what is happening into universal perspective. I tried reading it seperately once, and I found it kind of bland. The same way I would with a regular comic about pirates.

[mikegraham6]

i gave Watchmen to my dad a few years back and he loved it, but he skipped all the prose sections at the end of each chapter. that i couldn't understand, a lot of the time, those sections were my favorite part, it gave so much more backstory and added character depth, they were great. The pirate part i can understand skipping because it did tend to get a bit dry, but damn the prose parts were interesting

[esophagus]

i gave Watchmen to my dad a few years back and he loved it, but he skipped all the prose sections at the end of each chapter. that i couldn't understand, a lot of the time, those sections were my favorite part, it gave so much more backstory and added character depth, they were great. The pirate part i can understand skipping because it did tend to get a bit dry, but damn the prose parts were interestingI loved all of the prose writing. It added so much. Stuff that you didn't already know. The pirate stuff didn't have that.

[sullivan85]

I read Watchmen every year or so and every time I still love it . That makes it timeless to me. There are lots of comics I bought ten years ago that make me question my judgement.

[billy-parker]

I'm not trying to be rude, but I can't comprehend how someone could see Watchmen as not good.

Moore deconstructed the hero archetype, and made them ironic and dark.

Wow, ironic and dark. That's great, but "Greatest comic of all time!"? No.

I wouldn't even call it a superhero book. It has heroes in it, but it's nothing like a hero book.

Avengers, Justice League, X-Men, Fantastic Four, those are heroes books.

Watchmen is a murder mystery that turns into a "War is bad, I hate America, Americans are poor, free healthcare for everyone" book. So freakin' lame.

A problem with the writing for me is that Moore speaks through his characters instead of letting them be real characters in both Watchmen and V and it's so amateur and annoying to me. He's overly persuasive with his agenda and it's sooo lame, but no one ever sees that. He doesn't let you read into his books, he forces everything on you.

Like I said, the ending of Watchmen sucks. Think about it. Moore created Ozymandias, the "Smartest" hero in the world who becomes politically enlightened when getting high on hasheesh! (Whoa, cool!) Supposedly smart and really high. Sound like anyone? Oh yah, it's Alan Moore! He wrote himself into the story as the smartest and man in the world to say "America sucks. America is bad. Don't invade Afghanistan."

Wow and it was so telling to see that Afghanistan became the most evil country in American history when they killed 3,000 New Yorkers on 9/11/01.

Moore does the same thing in "V For "Vendetta." I think it was page 28, when the characters say "The Republicans came in, they took away the Jews, the blacks, the gays" etc. etc. etc. Meanwhile, V hates his country because they've wronged him so he encourages the girl to get high and make inexpensive drugs and take down the man! Yes that actually happens and is said in the book. Once again, Moore is a character, this time V.

It's called "writerspeak" when you talk through your characters, something alot of novice writers do. I just hate it when I can spot that, because it's so overly persuasive and reader's don't realize when it comes across this strong, it's not great storytelling, it's "P For Propaganda." Wake up people, these books are lame.

[mikegraham6]

A problem with the writing for me is that Moore speaks through his characters instead of letting them be real characters in both Watchmen and V and it's so amateur and annoying to me. He's overly persuasive with his agenda and it's sooo lame, but no one ever sees that. He doesn't let you read into his books, he forces everything on you.

Like I said, the ending of Watchmen sucks. Think about it. Moore created Ozymandias, the "Smartest" hero in the world who becomes politically enlightened when getting high on hasheesh! (Whoa, cool!) Supposedly smart and really high. Sound like anyone? Oh yah, it's Alan Moore! He wrote himself into the story as the smartest and man in the world to say "America sucks. America is bad. Don't invade Afghanistan."

Wow and it was so telling to see that Afghanistan became the most evil country in American history when they killed 3,000 New Yorkers on 9/11/01.

Moore does the same thing in "V For "Vendetta." I think it was page 28, when the characters say "The Republicans came in, they took away the Jews, the blacks, the gays" etc. etc. etc. Meanwhile, V hates his country because they've wronged him so he encourages the girl to get high and make inexpensive drugs and take down the man! Yes that actually happens and is said in the book. Once again, Moore is a character, this time V.

It's called "writerspeak" when you talk through your characters, something alot of novice writers do. I just hate it when I can spot that, because it's so overly persuasive and reader's don't realize when it comes across this strong, it's not great storytelling, it's "P For Propaganda." Wake up people, these books are lame.

:eek:Dude.....
i don't even know where to start with this.......

[horatio616]

To each his own I guess...

[esophagus]

To each his own I guess...And that is definitely his own. I have yet to hear that argument.

[deegraww]

I went to my local borders to go get this. I found it picked it up and was going to just flip through it and see what all the buzz was about. After looking through I closed the book and placed it back on the shelf. To me the art turned me off. I didn't like it at all. But before everyone gets mad let me say this.

The same time I went to find Watchmen I was looking for the Dark Knight Returns book as well. I found it picked it up and was ticked because it was the same type of art work. The reason I didn't put this one back was because I know Batman. I understand the character already and wanted to learn more about him. Watchmen just doesn't hold any intrest to me.

But I wanted to post this here because I went out to find these books because of iFanboy. They did a show of top graphic novels and those books were on the top of the list. So I'm sure many of you are there are cursing me at this point and i'm sorry. Please don't kill me.

[conorkilpatrick]

The same time I went to find Watchmen I was looking for the Dark Knight Returns book as well. I found it picked it up and was ticked because it was the same type of art work. The reason I didn't put this one back was because I know Batman. I understand the character already and wanted to learn more about him. Watchmen just doesn't hold any intrest to me.

Dave Gibbons' art is the same as Frank Miller's? That's a new one.

What kind of art do you like? I think you're doing yourself a real disservice, but I can understand not getting past art you don't find appealing.

[deegraww]

Dave Gibbons' art is the same as Frank Miller's? That's a new one.

What kind of art do you like? I think you're doing yourself a real disservice, but I can understand not getting past art you don't find appealing.


I guess it's more like to me they don't think that the art work plays as much as the story telling as the actual dialog. I know nothing of art and I couldn't do anything remotly close to what these people do. But I do know what I like and what I don't. Maybe like you said i'm doing myself a disservice and need to get past my first impression and read it. I'm all for a good story and it sounds like i'm missing out on a good one.

[senoj1]

I have the same feeling about Watchmen as i do Led Zeppelin. They are both awesome and i respect them for what they mean and what they have done. However they are not my favorite things. When someone says 'What do you think is the greatest comic?" Personally I would never say Watchmen. Same with Zep. I don't think they are the greatest but so many people do. There are just so many things that have a higher standing with me.

[labor_days]

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying, deegraww. Do you mean to say Moore cares less for dialogue than Miller or that one art style is more story focused than the other? /confused

[senoj1]

i think he is just saying that he doesn't care about the artwork that much.

[conorkilpatrick]

i think he is just saying that he doesn't care about the artwork that much.

If that were the case it wouldn't stop him from buying the book, right? I too am confused. Also, we showed the art in the show we did so it shouldn't have been too much of a surprise, I'd think.

[senoj1]

Since they both had "Bad Artwork" to him he went with Batman because he knows Batman.

[labor_days]

Since they both had "Bad Artwork" to him he went with Batman because he knows Batman.

Well, that makes a bit more sense then.

edit: Though I love Watchmen, I can understand how some may be put off by it as well.

[esophagus]

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying, deegraww. Do you mean to say Moore cares less for dialogue than Miller or that one art style is more story focused than the other? /confusedHe's saying that the art in both books makes it look like they are putting more into the dialogue, and letting the art take the back seat.

I'm going to have to siagree though. Watchmen has a realism about it that I love, it is the epitome of 80's color too. As for Dark Knight, when I think "good comic art" I think Dark Knight. I just loved the art in that book.

[infernorhythm]

I just got the TPB this weekend, and after reading it, I honestly think it sucks. It barely held my attention and during the Rorshach psychiatric issue I wanted to bang my head against the wall. I know how well this comic is praised and loved, yet I could not for one second enjoy it. Am I an idiot or something?

[esophagus]

YES... No. Some people just don't like it.

[niceguyeddie]

it could just be that it was built up to high for you. built up expectations suck.
but at least you read the book before the movie is released.
the peeps that read the book after watching the flick i think are going to miss out some. but then again it'll bring some new crowds too.

[labor_days]

I just got the TPB this weekend, and after reading it, I honestly think it sucks. It barely held my attention and during the Rorshach psychiatric issue I wanted to bang my head against the wall. I know how well this comic is praised and loved, yet I could not for one second enjoy it. Am I an idiot or something?

Nah. While Watchmen is a magnificent work, it sometimes falls victim to it's own hype. Being very much of a "time" in history and a rather dense intellectual read doesn't help endear it to the casual fan either.

Some people will love it, others will not. Ce'est la vie.


edit: hehe. I knew the thread was going to get merged as soon as I saw the topic. Those mods are on it, man.

[esophagus]

Heh. I was going to link to this, but the merges are just so quick!

[humphrey-lee]

I just got the TPB this weekend, and after reading it, I honestly think it sucks. It barely held my attention and during the Rorshach psychiatric issue I wanted to bang my head against the wall. I know how well this comic is praised and loved, yet I could not for one second enjoy it. Am I an idiot or something?

Quality and Entertainment are not the same thing. Sometimes they come together, sometimes they don't. It happens.

[labor_days]

Quality and Entertainment are not the same thing.
Huh?

Are you not entertained by quality work? Don't think I ever read something and said, "That was really good but I did not enjoy it".

[humphrey-lee]

Huh?

Are you not entertained by quality work? Don't think I ever read something and said, "That was really good but I did not enjoy it".

Things that keep you thoroughly entertained don't necessarily mean they're of any great quality. I love Mallrats. I've watched Mallrats over a hundred times and still laugh at it, but that doesn't mean I can't literally think of 200 or 300 films better than it.

Citizen Kane is probably the most important and intricate film of all time, that doesn't mean that after having watched it once I don't ever want to again cause it bores me to tears. The fact that I don't ever want to watch it ever ever again doesn't make it any less brilliant though.

But some people would watch CK and say "That blew, it was boring!" and not understand why it's held in such high regard.

[labor_days]

Things that keep you thoroughly entertained don't necessarily mean they're of any great quality.
Ah, I got ya meaning now. Yeah, I would say it's a matter of degrees of quality moreso than the two being exclusive.

[infernorhythm]

Quality and Entertainment are not the same thing. Sometimes they come together, sometimes they don't. It happens.

See that's the thing, and I know I'm going to get some enemies for this, but I honestly did not think Watchmen was quality stuff. Now, maybe I'm crazy, in a very small minority, or just stupid, but I can't really see the so called quality of the story. It feels disjointed, predictable, and just boring. Eh, still, I might see the movie. I mean, Zack Snyder made 300 cool.

[esophagus]

Zack Snyder made 300 cool.Are you saying you didn't like 300 either? Because this could be proof of your craziness.

[jaflanagan]

See that's the thing, and I know I'm going to get some enemies for this, but I honestly did not think Watchmen was quality stuff. Now, maybe I'm crazy, in a very small minority, or just stupid, but I can't really see the so called quality of the story. It feels disjointed, predictable, and just boring. Eh, still, I might see the movie. I mean, Zack Snyder made 300 cool.

No dude, I'm totally right there with you. disjointed, predictable, awful.

Wait...we're talking about Civil War right?

This thread is like the negative zone. There's a post up there that says Moore's work is amateurish. I mean...there's not a writer in comics today who doesn't look up to Moore as the apex. Anyway, whatever, I wish people could enjoy it and be amazed by it like I am, but to each their own.

[kahunablair]

Huh?
Are you not entertained by quality work? Don't think I ever read something and said, "That was really good but I did not enjoy it".

That's how I feel sometimes. I personally don't LOVE Watchmen. It's not in my top ten favorite reads.
But all that being said I still understand that it is a phenomenal book. It's got the "Quality" badge stamped all over it. I respect what it is and what it's done to the industry. I understand the complexities and the unbelievable job of layering Moore wrote into the story.
Just because I don't love the book, doesn't mean I don't see how "great" it is.

[labor_days]

That's how I feel sometimes. I personally don't LOVE Watchmen. It's not in my top ten favorite reads.
But all that being said I still understand that it is a phenomenal book. It's got the "Quality" badge stamped all over it. I respect what it is and what it's done to the industry. I understand the complexities and the unbelievable job of layering Moore wrote into the story.
Just because I don't love the book, doesn't mean I don't see how "great" it is.

Sure. That is really a matter of appreciation. As in one can appreciate the how & why of a work without necessarily being enamored with it. This isn't uncommon when a fair amount of praise surrounds a particular work or artist. All this can apply to Watchmen, I think.



This thread is like the negative zone. There's a post up there that says Moore's work is amateurish. I mean...there's not a writer in comics today who doesn't look up to Moore as the apex.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. This does not mean all opinions are valid. Some, many, are quite erroneous. ;-)

(By the by, I not only think Watchmen is a watershed of the medium but enjoy it greatly as well. Just so Josh doesn't get confused, you see.)

[infernorhythm]

No dude, I'm totally right there with you. disjointed, predictable, awful.

Wait...we're talking about Civil War right?

This thread is like the negative zone. There's a post up there that says Moore's work is amateurish. I mean...there's not a writer in comics today who doesn't look up to Moore as the apex. Anyway, whatever, I wish people could enjoy it and be amazed by it like I am, but to each their own.

Hey, I never said Moore was an amateur or that he sucked. I personally loved V For Vendetta and LXG, I just wasn't a fan of Watchmen. As you say, to each their own.

[jaflanagan]

I know you didn't say it. Someone else said it, but I didn't even want to take the effort to scroll up to read something so....like that.

***

Here it is. - Conor

A problem with the writing for me is that Moore speaks through his characters instead of letting them be real characters in both Watchmen and V and it's so amateur and annoying to me. He's overly persuasive with his agenda and it's sooo lame, but no one ever sees that. He doesn't let you read into his books, he forces everything on you.

Like I said, the ending of Watchmen sucks. Think about it. Moore created Ozymandias, the "Smartest" hero in the world who becomes politically enlightened when getting high on hasheesh! (Whoa, cool!) Supposedly smart and really high. Sound like anyone? Oh yah, it's Alan Moore! He wrote himself into the story as the smartest and man in the world to say "America sucks. America is bad. Don't invade Afghanistan."

Wow and it was so telling to see that Afghanistan became the most evil country in American history when they killed 3,000 New Yorkers on 9/11/01.

Moore does the same thing in "V For "Vendetta." I think it was page 28, when the characters say "The Republicans came in, they took away the Jews, the blacks, the gays" etc. etc. etc. Meanwhile, V hates his country because they've wronged him so he encourages the girl to get high and make inexpensive drugs and take down the man! Yes that actually happens and is said in the book. Once again, Moore is a character, this time V.

It's called "writerspeak" when you talk through your characters, something alot of novice writers do. I just hate it when I can spot that, because it's so overly persuasive and reader's don't realize when it comes across this strong, it's not great storytelling, it's "P For Propaganda." Wake up people, these books are lame.

[mikegraham6]

ya... i remember that post..... i avoided it like the plague:rolleyes:

[six-gun]

what made me love Watchmen is that I can approach it like I would a great work of literature like As I Lay Dying or The Great Gatsby, almost like a scavenger hunt for the deeper meaning.

[esophagus]

I had to force myself not to start dissecting that and picking out every little thing wrong with it... Again. That post should just die.

[briangilmore]

Yes. Without a single doubt in my mind yes. Can I just answer with yes?

[esophagus]

It's all that needs to be said, without writing a paper on it.

[humphrey-lee]

See that's the thing, and I know I'm going to get some enemies for this, but I honestly did not think Watchmen was quality stuff. Now, maybe I'm crazy, in a very small minority, or just stupid, but I can't really see the so called quality of the story. It feels disjointed, predictable, and just boring. Eh, still, I might see the movie. I mean, Zack Snyder made 300 cool.

You also and always have to take into consideration that every comic you have probably ever read that has been released since, oh, probably say since you were born has taken storytelling, scripting, plotting, paneling, and pacing techniques etc from Watchmen. I don't know how far into your comic book reading life you finally read Watchmen, but it's also imperative that you realize you had read it probably several hundred to a thousand times before you even opened back the cover to the actual book.

[briangilmore]

You also and always have to take into consideration that every comic you have probably ever read that has been released since, oh, probably say since you were born has taken storytelling, scripting, plotting, paneling, and pacing techniques etc from Watchmen. I don't know how far into your comic book reading life you finally read Watchmen, but it's also imperative that you realize you had read it probably several hundred to a thousand times before you even opened back the cover to the actual book.

Not only that, but it is honestly an undeniable work of precision in storytelling, commentary, art, panel work, character development and in exploration of a medium.

You can say you didn't like it. Hell some of my favorite books some people HATE, but that does not mean they're bad books. (It just means some people are wrong). I think Citizen Kane is pretty freaking boring after a while, but that doesn't mean it's a bad film. It's a great film, and I know it, b/c every film took from that film from there on out.

Same goes with Watchmen. Can we all at least agree that it is a great work?

[briangilmore]

Also, if you liked 300, there's a lot of things we'll disagree on :p

[esophagus]

What part of 300 did you dislike?

[jaflanagan]

Also, if you liked 300, there's a lot of things we'll disagree on :p

Book or movie?

[briangilmore]

Book or movie?
The guy said "Zak Snyder made 300 cool". I hated the movie.

The book was alright. More of an art book than a great story. Meant to be read the way it was written in its medium and should NEVER have been a film, in my opinion. Where're you guys on this?

[conorkilpatrick]

The book was alright. More of an art book than a great story. Meant to be read the way it was written in its medium and should NEVER have been a film, in my opinion. Where're you guys on this?

Pretty high on it. (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4594&highlight=special+edition)

[esophagus]

I agree with you that 300 was a completely artistic book, and that's where everything stops. I think that Zak Snyder did an amazing translation, and made the movie artisticly brilliant. Sure he had to add a bit of plot, and dialogue, but I didn't feel it subtracted from it really. A great adaptation.

I think you're in the minority here.

[briangilmore]

I agree with you that 300 was a completely artistic book, and that's where everything stops. I think that Zak Snyder did an amazing translation, and made the movie artisticly brilliant. Sure he had to add a bit of plot, and dialogue, but I didn't feel it subtracted from it really. A great adaptation.

I think you're in the minority here.


All Your Base Are Belong to Zak Snyder.

I think it was a pretty great story by itself in its medium, and it was translated as well as it possibly could have been (which is why I'm not scared about Watchmen). He did a great job of translating it, but it translated into a bad film. It got completely lost in translation in my opinion. If the comic book didn't exist I would've hated the movie instead of just disliked it.

Sorry to derail your thread, guys. I'll find a place to talk about this. Not sure how you guys roll 'round here. :)

[humphrey-lee]

Same goes with Watchmen. Can we all at least agree that it is a great work?

It's to comics what the Beatles are to music. Just because someone doesn't like the Beatles, well, that's personal taste, whatever. But to make the mistake of not realizing they are pretty high on the reasons why modern music is the way it is is a horrible misunderstanding.

[horatio616]

I agree with you that 300 was a completely artistic book, and that's where everything stops. I think that Zak Snyder did an amazing translation, and made the movie artisticly brilliant. Sure he had to add a bit of plot, and dialogue, but I didn't feel it subtracted from it really. A great adaptation.

I think you're in the minority here.

Pretty fun movie. Three stars.

[jaflanagan]

It's to comics what the Beatles are to music. Just because someone doesn't like the Beatles, well, that's personal taste, whatever. But to make the mistake of not realizing they are pretty high on the reasons why modern music is the way it is is a horrible misunderstanding.

This sounds...familiar.... (http://www.ifanboy.com/archive/weblog/milestones.html) But completely correct. When people say, "Feh, the Beatles weren't that good," they're just being obstinate for the sake of originality. Because there's no question about the Beatles being good. They are them who begat all which came after.

Cuz sometimes I roll biblical.

[labor_days]

It's [Watchmen] to comics what the Beatles are to music. Just because someone doesn't like the Beatles, well, that's personal taste, whatever. But to make the mistake of not realizing they are pretty high on the reasons why modern music is the way it is is a horrible misunderstanding.

Quoted for the goddamn truth and co-signed. /end thread

[mikegraham6]

They are them who begat all which came after.

Cuz sometimes I roll biblical.

this made me laugh out loud. thanks for embassing me at work Josh...:D

[jaflanagan]

New job or old job? Because if it's the old one, who cares? If it's the new one...well, sorry.

But not really.

[mikegraham6]

New job or old job? Because if it's the old one, who cares? If it's the new one...well, sorry.

But not really.

old job... not a problem!
without the forums, i don't know what i'd do with myself in this job... work, probably....:rolleyes:

[infernorhythm]

This sounds...familiar.... (http://www.ifanboy.com/archive/weblog/milestones.html) But completely correct. When people say, "Feh, the Beatles weren't that good," they're just being obstinate for the sake of originality. Because there's no question about the Beatles being good. They are them who begat all which came after.

Cuz sometimes I roll biblical.

Are we talking Ezekiel 25:17 Biblical?

Seriously though, funniest thing I've read all day.

[briangilmore]

This sounds...familiar.... (http://www.ifanboy.com/archive/weblog/milestones.html) But completely correct. When people say, "Feh, the Beatles weren't that good," they're just being obstinate for the sake of originality. Because there's no question about the Beatles being good. They are them who begat all which came after.

Cuz sometimes I roll biblical.

Hell yeah. hahahaha

Sometimes, things are just good. Technically with no room for opinion. Not because of popularity but b/c of factors by which things are decided.

It's like Citizen Kane. I'm sticking with Citizen Kane.

God, the Beatles ****ing rule.

[infernorhythm]

God, the Beatles ****ing rule.

QFT. As does Led Zeppelin.

[six-gun]

QFT. As does Led Zeppelin.

Finally, another Led-head

[Megnolia]

Help!

Admittedly, I am fairly newbish in the realm of comics and capes, but I'm a very seasoned reader of literature and I'm really confused. I'm over halfway through my first reading of the book and I'm lost re: pirate dude who makes raft out of dead people.

Am I supposed to a) understand how this fits into the story, b) enjoy it, c) care?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[conorkilpatrick]

If you have learned anything from me, Meg, it's SKIP THE PIRATE PARTS! ;)

[georgexjr]

you d) shouldn't have bought watchmen.

[conorkilpatrick]

you d) shouldn't have bought watchmen.

Don't be a troll.

Watchmen is widely regarded as the best superhero comic book ever for a reason.

[comhcinc]

just keep rolling. it all makes sense in the end.

[georgexjr]

im not being a troll. im surprised you didn't delete my comment.

the watchmen is like led zepplin of black sabbath. it was original and influence just about everything but.....watchmen was over 20 years ago. and it wasn't even that good. thats my opinion. im a troll.

[deadspace]

To answer your questions:

(a) No
(b) No
(c) No

Hope that helps lol

Watchmen is absolutely fucking awesome. The errr... "chapters" :D that focus on Doc Manhattan and Rorschach are particularly amazing.

[conorkilpatrick]

im not being a troll. im surprised you didn't delete my comment.

the watchmen is like led zepplin of black sabbath. it was original and influence just about everything but.....watchmen was over 20 years ago. and it wasn't even that good. thats my opinion. im a troll.

What does that have to do with the pirate parts? That's why it's trolling.

[horatio616]

Help!

Admittedly, I am fairly newbish in the realm of comics and capes, but I'm a very seasoned reader of literature and I'm really confused. I'm over halfway through my first reading of the book and I'm lost re: pirate dude who makes raft out of dead people.

Am I supposed to a) understand how this fits into the story, b) enjoy it, c) care?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

In the context of the complete story, yeah it fits, but, to be honest, I didn't pick up on it the first time I read it and I mostly skimmed those sections anyway. As far as I'm concerned, Moore could have left that out, but its inclusion didn't dampen my overall enjoyment of the book.

[georgexjr]

What does that have to do with the pirate parts? That's why it's trolling.

whys ever thing gotta be so politically correct!? why can't we bust balls?

[conorkilpatrick]

whys ever thing gotta be so politically correct!? why can't we bust balls?

We don't do that here. There are plenty of places on the internet for that.

Back to the pirate parts.

[zombox]

I actually like the pirate parts. I'd read pirate books.

That said, I've never quite fathomed how they are supposed to interrelate to the core story - though I once read a thesis that tied them in somehow.

[horatio616]

I actually like the pirate parts. I'd read pirate books.

That said, I've never quite fathomed how they are supposed to interrelate to the core story - though I once read a thesis that tied them in somehow.

This is what I got out of it. I'll put spoiler tags on it for Megnolia's sake:




Spoiler alert!











********


1. It parallels the journey of Veidt as a man who becomes a monster to save those he loves.

2. It relates Watchmen to comics history. Both Watchmen and The Black Pirate tell the same story, but in different ways. Essentially, Moore is telling a traditional comic story, but in a way not seen before.

I'm sure there's much much more to it but that's what I think about it.

[deadspace]

I actually like the pirate parts. I'd read pirate books.

That said, I've never quite fathomed how they are supposed to interrelate to the core story - though I once read a thesis that tied them in somehow.

I love the fact that someone wrote a thesis on it!! :D There is so much depth so the Watchmen and that's what I love about it.

[deadspace]

whys ever thing gotta be so politically correct!? why can't we bust balls?

I dont think it's so much about being politically correct as about not posting silly stuff

[Megnolia]

Man the iFanbase rocks. Thanks all for the help and input. I have, since posting this, finished the book and loved it. I want to start over again (skipping the pirate parts) to really delve into all the layers now that I have the basic plot.


1. It parallels the journey of Veidt as a man who becomes a monster to save those he loves.

2. It relates Watchmen to comics history. Both Watchmen and The Black Pirate tell the same story, but in different ways. Essentially, Moore is telling a traditional comic story, but in a way not seen before.

Thanks Horatio for that analysis (and for trying not to spoil it for me). I had a feeling that's what was happening, but wasn't sure. An extended metaphor like that seemed a little too easy or obvious, I guess, for such a complex and nuanced plot. So I thought I may be missing something other than that. Apparently I was wrong.

As an aside, I can't stand overt metaphors like that. If the story is good enough, it should stand on it's own and the parallels to other works should be left to the reader to discover. You don't need to smack people around and/or confuse them with them.

Conor, I am very sorry that I didn't heed your warning. I will never not listen to you again.

[gungadin]

Hi, Meg...

Yeah, read the pirate parts. It's really good stuff, no matter what Kilpatrick will have you believe. He's really missing out by not reading them... You get more out of it (and by it I mean everything about Watchmen as well as the pirate parts) when you read through it again... Because... you need to read through it a second time...

[miyamotofreak]

For what its worth, Watchmen is by far the best comic book I have ever read. Now I've only been seriously reading comics for over a year now, but I've gone through a lot of the essentials and nothing comes close. And its better on every reread.

[deadspace]

I read it for the first time within the last couple of months and absolutely loved it.

While most of the comics I read I would describe as "fun", "enjoyable", "imaginative", "great story-telling" etc, I found the Watchmen to be of a completely different level. It's an outstanding piece of literature.