Do you also read/collect manga?

[chuckles]

How many of you also read/collect manga?

-chuckles?

[paper]

Used to. Never more than a single volume of anything, I think.

Closest I get now is probably Robin ;)

[jerome]

my comic shop guy recommended Blade of the Immortal and i bought the first two trades of that. Haven't gotten to read it yet but i'm looking forward to it.

[acomicbookgirl]

There should be a choice for not exactly for the poll.. The only one I read was Princess Ai and I recently gave them to my cousin since he appreciates manga..

[conorkilpatrick]

The only true manga I have are the Project X - Challengers series; I've got all three of those.

There are also the three volumes of Scott Pilgrim, which is like quasi-manga.

[chuckles]

There should be a choice for not exactly for the poll.. The only one I read was Princess Ai and I recently gave them to my cousin since he appreciates manga..

Added. :)

-chuckles-

[acomicbookgirl]

Added. :)

-chuckles-


Thanks! :)

[acomicbookgirl]

The only true manga I have are the Project X - Challengers series; I've got all three of those.

There are also the three volumes of Scott Pilgrim, which is like quasi-manga.


Someone was asking me about Scott Pilgrim.. I had not idea what it was at the time..

Project X Challegers? I've been meaning to get those.. Time to go to Amazon... ;)

[iSteve]

Does Usagi Yojimbo count?

[the-screw-on-aaron]

Didn't read manga but I used to be a huge Anime fan! I loved Cowboy bebop, Evangelion, Outlaw Star, Trigun, Inewyasha, all the Gundom shows I was into it all, I know a lot of them are Mangas so I should read them sometime maybe because I really loved the shows particularly Cowboy Bebop, ah so good:D

[kwok_talk]

I don't really consider myself a manga fan, but I do have the entire Dragonball Z run. I loved that series and the characters, but when I tried reading other manga, it really didn't grab me. Somewhat related though, I do like the "manga" book formats that Marvel has put Runaways out in. Just something different.

[fred]

Used to. Never more than a single volume of anything, I think.

Closest I get now is probably Robin ;)

on snap then I voted wrong

I usually ending offending at last 70% of the audience when I discuss manga so.....

/gracefully bows out

[pv_2]

I have been starting to get into manga a little - reading Monster; read Cup Noodle and planning to get the rest of Project X- Challenger series; enjoyed the first volume of Kurosagi Corpse Delivery, might read more; plus Ameriamanga like Scott Pilgrim, My Dead Girlfriend, and Dark Goodbye. I've found these titles to be a nice change of pace from regular comics, and I like the digest format, lotsa story for your dime.

[mikegraham6]

i can't stand the stuff, but i am really looking forward to the Project X challengers, its in the mail, i couldn't resist, Ron was just so enthusiatic with his description, it sounded like a blast!

[k-dizzle]

I have read all the Astro Boy books by Osamu Tezuka. I used to watch the Tetsuwan Atom cartoon back in the day. I like the Manga that is re-done for the english ie: left to right, top to bottem etc. The origonal stuff looks cool, but I just cant read backwards, it drives me bonkers.

[lindseyd]

I used to be pretty big into manga; I collected several volumes of the beginning of inu-yasha, but ended up giving up on it because Takahashi's mangas go on for freaking ever and it's pointless to try to collect them. I remember really liking the mangas that were published in the Slayers series, but then again I loved the show, so that's no surprise.

For those of you who liked Dragonball, you might like One Piece, which is really popular right now and is generally hailed as the spiritual successor to DB. My boyfriend was a huge Dragonball fan and he swears by One Piece and reads it voraciously. It's a bit daunting because it's been ongoing for a while now (I think more than a decade?) but I can ask him for a good jumping on point if you're interested.

[humphrey-lee]

I don't collect Manga at all, but those I've sat down and read I've loved so much, but it just falls to the wayside for me. Like, I've read and thuroughly enjoyed the first two volumes of Blade of the Immortal and Lone Wolf and Cub, and I think they were both equally amazing, at yet I never continued buying them. I really don't know why, but it just happens. I might rectify this at PittCon next week if I can find some half off bargains.

[comhcinc]

i love Lone Wolf and Cub. i hate everything else.

[blindrift98]

I am a huge fan of anime and manga. Although i do not have a large collection I borrow my friends and watch what i can. If any you know of Rorouni Kenshin there is a series of films that make up a prequel to it called Samurai X Trust/Betrayal and reflections, which was amazing. Some other anime that i have collected are the Ghost in the Shell movies and series, DBz, Trigun, and Lucky Star. As for manga there is intial D, megatokyo(an american made webcomic in anime art style) and project x.

P.S. Anyone else bothered by the amount of censorship that is applied to anime of cartoon network?

[esophagus]

Anyone else bothered by the amount of censorship that is applied to anime of cartoon network?
It's a childrens network.

[mikegraham6]

doesn't some anime have nudity and some graphic sex scenes? yet they are still kind of geared to children? seems bizarre to me (especially the sex part)

[paper]

You need some examples, Mike. Anime is geared to a wide range of ages. Just like anything. So some does include graphic sex and violence. I don't know that any of that is intended for children.

But remember that the rest of the world has different standards for sexual content than North America. We tend to shy away from that kind of thing in favor of violence. Elsewhere this is not the case.

Then again Asia has rules about what you can and cannot see. Look no further than funnel fish for examples of this curious sort of censorship.

Wally, we need your expertise.

[mikegraham6]

ya i realized how horribly generalizing and ignorant that comment was after i posted it. I'm not familiar with anime in slightest, i've just heard of these things second hand, and have been told about popular japanese kids shows that needed to be editted when they came to north america (DragonBall Z and sailor moon, i think)

[paper]

Well there's some fairly innocent nudity in those original shows. Or, in the case of Sailor Moon, a lesbian couple suddenly became "cousins."

[zombox]

Only if it is a series that I am interested in innately. Such as Battle Royale. I don't like the cutesie manga, or manga that constantly throws in 'off kilter' humor given the severity of the subject matter, and it is very hard to read stuff that feels like it is strictly meant for an adult mind in manga to me. If you have suggestions to that effect, I'd take them.

[mikegraham6]

anyone know if transformers was an anime in Japan before it came to North America? From what i remember the original cartoon had an anime look about it

[drwally]

You need some examples, Mike. Anime is geared to a wide range of ages. Just like anything. So some does include graphic sex and violence. I don't know that any of that is intended for children.

But remember that the rest of the world has different standards for sexual content than North America. We tend to shy away from that kind of thing in favor of violence. Elsewhere this is not the case.

Then again Asia has rules about what you can and cannot see. Look no further than funnel fish for examples of this curious sort of censorship.

Wally, we need your expertise.

Paper, you basically have it right. There are standards, they're just different ones. US: Most violence is OK, sex is taboo. JAPAN: as long as its inane, juvenile humor it's OK for TV. In fact, pee pee and poop jokes are standard stuff for kids of all ages, particularly really young kids.

Violence is tricky - US: violence that comes without real consequences (think: 1960s Star Trek nameless security guy in the red shirt) is OK in the US. But a main character? The emotional trauma that results? OK in Japan (think: Barefoot Gen, about the aftermath of the atom bomb on Hiroshima), as is most ultra violence that is too crazy to be real (like Kill Bill 1, tons of Japanese pop influences there). One of the most influenctial Manga, read by tons of teenagers, Nagai Go's Devilman, ended with the hero cut in half, his severed torso laying next to his "best friend." In fact, one very insightful author (Ian Buruma) makes the case that Japanese media is so crazy because the society is so tightly controlled by everyday manners and customs - acts as a release valve for people.

Here is a weird one - Young Girls Romance Comics (HUGE genre) typically portrays intense love relationships between two guys drawn to look like men who are very intensely girly looking, and there is a big theater (Takarazuka) which adapts these stories, with an all female cast, women playing both males and females. Lots of stories mourning the inevitable death of true, pure love that only young people can feel. Standard stuff, the fanbase for the that type of manga and theater is COMPLETELY young girls and older women, very devoted fans.

But a real depiction of a real gay relationship? WAY taboo. It's only OK if they commit double suicide at the end, so that all the repressed readers can feel like they died for a noble, unattainable ideal that can not be realized in real society. The Last Samurai - Most Japanese say Tom Cruise should have died at the end, along with Ken Watanabe. I think they should have committed double suicide, in a loving embrace, then it would be a real Samurai drama, following the archtypal story pattern. Good for the kids because it teaches the culture's traditions. Yes, weird to us but...

On Censorship on Cartoon Channels in the US - Is it a kids channel? Isn't that the assumption? Are we kids and do we watch cartoons, and were we so "impressionable" that Japanese Anime would turn us into Ted Bundy? That's the US culture at work, influencing those decisions. As noted, Anime is not always considered kids stuff. Many adults watch the mega hit One Piece, and a good friend of mine (Japanese) loves to watch it with his 7 year old son (who love it too). I can't stand it. Especially since I understand the language. I'm a snob and picky, and my friend would agree.

Me--Anime more than Manga, but I learned to read Japanese through Astro Boy, Devilman, and Kikaider (again much more tragic death than I anticipated based on my viewing of the TV show). Sailor Moon (FIRST season only), and EVANGELION, gosh, I LOVED that series (not the bad movie that came after). Evangelion was broadcast in the "after school" slot in Japan (for kids, the programmers thought), was cancelled after about 24 episodes, was shown in reruns on latenight, then university and older viewers turned it into a mega hit here in Japan.

[drwally]

anyone know if transformers was an anime in Japan before it came to North America? From what i remember the original cartoon had an anime look about it

Short answer: No. Anime is just translated for the US, not redone, throw a rock in Japan and you'll hit a giant roba anime. So, if it seems like giant robo anime, well, they been doing giant Robo anime in Japan since the 60s (Mazinga Zed --cool theme song). Transformers is more Americans being inspired by the stuff that was being translated and getting attention when I was a kid and you were a darling in diapers. I had a Mazinga Zed and a Raidin doll, er, figure.

You can recognize "authentic anime" by the 2D techniques they use to make the most of the limitations of how many frames per second in the case of a low budget TV show. American cartoons, by contrast, try too hard (IMO) to replicate how a camera films real life, that's what you see in old Transformers and other things. Hellboy Animated is not imitating Anime stylistically, I think, but rather using the same techniques Japanese do to get the most out of a limited frame per second and other things related to a limited budget.

All IMO, BTW.

[horatio616]

Short answer: No. Anime is just translated for the US, not redone, throw a rock in Japan and you'll hit a giant roba anime. So, if it seems like giant robo anime, well, they been doing giant Robo anime in Japan since the 60s (Mazinga Zed --cool theme song). Transformers is more Americans being inspired by the stuff that was being translated and getting attention when I was a kid and you were a darling in diapers. I had a Mazinga Zed and a Raidin doll, er, figure.

You can recognize "authentic anime" by the 2D techniques they use to make the most of the limitations of how many frames per second in the case of a low budget TV show. American cartoons, by contrast, try too hard (IMO) to replicate how a camera films real life, that's what you see in old Transformers and other things. Hellboy Animated is not imitating Anime stylistically, I think, but rather using the same techniques Japanese do to get the most out of a limited frame per second and other things related to a limited budget.

All IMO, BTW.

But the original series continued for awhile after the US version was cancelled, am I right?

I've always been a huge Raydeen fan since the Shogun Warrior days. I snatch up any Raydeen figure I can find.

I'm halfway through Death Note. It's an intriguing premise, but it just seems off to me. The main character is blase and takes this turn in his life a little too well. "L" the detective only seems to exist to provide exposition and reveals his methods for no apparent reason other than to provide the main character something to talk about. It doesn't jibe with me, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[drwally]

But the original series continued for awhile after the US version was cancelled, am I right?

I've always been a huge Raydeen fan since the Shogun Warrior days. I snatch up any Raydeen figure I can find.

I'm halfway through Death Note. It's an intriguing premise, but it just seems off to me. The main character is blase and takes this turn in his life a little too well. "L" the detective only seems to exist to provide exposition and reveals his methods for no apparent reason other than to provide the main character something to talk about. It doesn't jibe with me, but it's interesting nonetheless.

US version vs. Japanese version, couldn't tell you, I think they did a "updated" version, I don't like those. Through a friend I met the guy who did the original voice for the hero who "drove" (merged?) with Raydeen (giant robo). Over drinks and food, we sat and listened to him talk about "life in the biz" (voice acting for anime) for more than two hours (in Japanese). You know when the hero of Raydeen would shout "Raydeen!" at the end of the opening theme? (Maybe you saw an English version). That guy, I talked to that guy for over two hours. At this point I am doing the equivelent of waving the toys I got for Christmas in your face that you wanted but didn't get.....:D
Funny comment - he said he never understood why US Comic Cons brought him along with the director, etc. to meet the fans since they dubbed these shows into English, and nobody knew who he was!

I haven't read Death Note, but once again, Horatio, you have the incredible knack of pointing to and describing well the overused tropes of Japanese genres."Before i tell you who committed this crime I am going to talk in a monolouge for 15 mintues to explain all the details leading up to the crime.." They do it on TV all the time, talking in this really stagey cadence, drives me batty.

On that note, RAYDEEN! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn-ryeDZweQ)(opening song/title sequence, from when they REALLY knew how to do an opening song).

[horatio616]

I haven't read Death Note, but once again, Horatio, you have the incredible knack of pointing to and describing well the overused tropes of Japanese genres."Before i tell you who committed this crime I am going to talk in a monolouge for 15 mintues to explain all the details leading up to the crime.." They do it on TV all the time, talking in this really stagey cadence, drives me batty.

On that note, RAYDEEN! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn-ryeDZweQ)(opening song, from when they REALLY knew how to do an opening song).


Thanks!

In DN, the detective broadcasts to the main character, "you must live here because you did this and this and this. Your powers cannot work this way because you did this and this." The whole time I'm thinking, "why are you telling this guy all this except to inform the reader?"

What's with the obsession with underage or underage-looking girls? Is this a result of the school uniform thing? Honestly, it baffles me a little.

[esophagus]

What's with the obsession with underage or underage-looking girls? Is this a result of the school uniform thing? Honestly, it baffles me a little.
It reeeeally creeps me out. Girls can be 50 and they still draw them like they're 12.

[dave-accampo]

I'm halfway through Death Note. It's an intriguing premise, but it just seems off to me. The main character is blase and takes this turn in his life a little too well. "L" the detective only seems to exist to provide exposition and reveals his methods for no apparent reason other than to provide the main character something to talk about. It doesn't jibe with me, but it's interesting nonetheless.

I assume you mean halfway through the first volume. I'd say stick with it. It is interesting, and yes, it's very talky, but I find it to be a sort of intellectual suspense tale, in that it's always about these two forces talking their way through a chess game. I guess maybe I just got used to how both lead characters essentially talk their way through their actions to their confidantes.

(unless you're halfway through the entire run, and then you're way ahead of me at this point...)

[drwally]

What's with the obsession with underage or underage-looking girls? Is this a result of the school uniform thing? Honestly, it baffles me a little.

Well, most of Manga reader are young themselves, so I guess the boys (and young men) want to be big and tough (read: inferiority complex bred by a hierachical society), but their girls precious, cute, and non threatening. The Japanese themselves have identified this Lolita thing, and called it, "Rori-Con" -Lolita Complex. Facing facts, Japanese society is still years behind the West in terms of women's equality issues, and has a long, cultural preference for "sweet innocence and naivite" in their girls, to the point of raising it to philosophical discourse to explain the "purity of the pure sweetheart."

Of course real women are totally aware of it, and play up the image, totally aware this is what men want and expect. They even make it an artform of it. And can manipulate that to their advantage. The better Manga will put that in their female characters as well. Yeah, pretty and cutesy, but look for the artful use of passive agressive behavior as the weapon of the girls. In all my years in Japan, I have learned - never take a girl with the cutesy look and behavior on face value. It's actually quite funny when certain girls try that cutesy cutesy routine on me at work, and the reaction from me is - Oh, how nice. "Now shall we get some work done? You seem very intelligent." If they are hip, they get it. If not, "befuddlement" is the look they get, and my straight colleagues (Westerners!) say, "Oh, that one is wasted on you."

Suffice to say, I am the last person here with much control over how women are portrayed in various media.

But keep this in mind - when the boys look effeminate n Manga by Western standards, the girls are just all the more so. AND, there is a tradition, growing stronger, of strong "female warrior" types, much like western characters with the power punch and big boobs.The woman and girls in Evangelion are the smartest, most well grounded, and strongest of the bunch.

The ENORMOUSLY popular girls romace comics always have an extremely strong thread of the last chance to indulge in the thrill of romance, always menaced by the encroaching expectations placed on adult women that spell doom and gloom.

I'll say I think Sailor Moon (FIRST season) was pretty good character. Good representive of a more snarky type of girl that are very present here.

[horatio616]

I assume you mean halfway through the first volume. I'd say stick with it. It is interesting, and yes, it's very talky, but I find it to be a sort of intellectual suspense tale, in that it's always about these two forces talking their way through a chess game. I guess maybe I just got used to how both lead characters essentially talk their way through their actions to their confidantes.

(unless you're halfway through the entire run, and then you're way ahead of me at this point...)

Halfway through the first volume. I'm where it's revealed (spoiler warning) that the main character's dad is one of the cops assigned to the case.

[dave-accampo]

Halfway through the first volume. I'm where it's revealed (spoiler warning) that the main character's dad is one of the cops assigned to the case.

Gotcha. Well, I'll be curious to hear what you think after you've finished it or moved on to the next one. I found it to be intriguing enough to keep going. But I admit, it continues on with the same style of both L and Light dancing around and explaining their moves.

I've only read through volume three, and I'm curious to read more...mostly out of curiosity as to how it can keep going (which could also get annoying by the time I get to volume 6 and beyond, so we'll see).

[horatio616]

Gotcha. Well, I'll be curious to hear what you think after you've finished it or moved on to the next one. I found it to be intriguing enough to keep going. But I admit, it continues on with the same style of both L and Light dancing around and explaining their moves.

I've only read through volume three, and I'm curious to read more...mostly out of curiosity as to how it can keep going (which could also get annoying by the time I get to volume 6 and beyond, so we'll see).

I'm curious to see what the anime OAVs are like. The last anime series I watched was Wolf's Rain that was on Cartoon Network.

This past weekend I watched an American directed anime film called Tekkonkinkreet (sp?) that was based on a manga. It's about two street urchins who get mixed up in gang and intergalactic (!) violence. It has aspirations to be better than it is. The middle is great, but the beginning and end are too ponderous and during the slow parts my attention wandered. These 'critically-acclaimed' anime have molasses-like pacing that would make even a 1970's movie jealous!

I have high hopes for Paprika but I won't be surprised if I don't like it.

[paper]

Everybody should watch Evangelion. I'd love to see the reaction. That's what got me sucked in. That and Rurouni Kenshin (which was just fun).

[dave-accampo]

This past weekend I watched an American directed anime film called Tekkonkinkreet (sp?) that was based on a manga. It's about two street urchins who get mixed up in gang and intergalactic (!) violence. It has aspirations to be better than it is. The middle is great, but the beginning and end are too ponderous and during the slow parts my attention wandered. These 'critically-acclaimed' anime have molasses-like pacing that would make even a 1970's movie jealous!

I have high hopes for Paprika but I won't be surprised if I don't like it.

I just got Tekkonkinkreet last week on Netflix. Started it, but stopped it after about 20-25 minutes, and haven't gotten back to it. I do like the style, and there's a certain whimsical quality to it, but I can't make heads or tails of where it's going at the point I'm at. We'll see.

[horatio616]

Everybody should watch Evangelion. I'd love to see the reaction. That's what got me sucked in. That and Rurouni Kenshin (which was just fun).

I love the robot designs for Evangelion but I've never gotten into it because the mythology is so intimidating.

[horatio616]

I just got Tekkonkinkreet last week on Netflix. Started it, but stopped it after about 20-25 minutes, and haven't gotten back to it. I do like the style, and there's a certain whimsical quality to it, but I can't make heads or tails of where it's going at the point I'm at. We'll see.

Just to warn you: it seems like it's building towards something but then it trails off again and the ending doesn't deliver. The animation is beautiful, though.

[drwally]

Everybody should watch Evangelion. I'd love to see the reaction. That's what got me sucked in. That and Rurouni Kenshin (which was just fun).

Whenever Americans talk about Evengenlion, I'm not sure if they are talking about the film (just 2 or so hours) or the TV show that ran for 23 or more episodes...

One was a great TV show that gradually developed an ongoing story in a great way, then was cancelled prematurely. The movie was an impossible attempt to wrap everything up from the TV show in two hours in one movie, lots of weird symbolism rather than story, and an effort to cash in on the mega hit status of the TV show after it became popular through reruns. Predictibly, clueless American and Japanese distributors push the movie in the US because well, the shorter one is the better one right? Not in this case. TV show all the way. "Ayanami REI."

"SHINJI!"

so....Paper, Horatio, which one do you mean?

Neon Genesis Evangelion - TV series opening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgATlhZFAfs&feature=related) (theme song, opening credits) LOVE this song.

[paper]

I meant the longer series.

Tho I'm intrigued by this new film version coming out recently. And the live action one WETA is working on.

[horatio616]

Whenever Americans talk about Evengenlion, I'm not sure if they are talking about the film (just 2 or so hours) or the TV show that ran for 23 or more episodes...

One was a great TV show that gradually developed an ongoing story in a great way, then was cancelled prematurely. The movie was an impossible attempt to wrap everything up from the TV show in two hours in one movie, lots of weird symbolism rather than story, and an effort to cash in on the mega hit status of the TV show after it became popular through reruns. Predictibly, clueless American and Japanese distributors push the movie in the US because well, the shorter one is the better one right? Not in this case. TV show all the way. "Ayanami REI."

"SHINJI!"

so....Paper, Horatio, which one do you mean?

Neon Genesis Evangelion - TV series opening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgATlhZFAfs&feature=related) (theme song, opening credits) LOVE this song.

I'm talking about the series as well. I've seen "movies" where they took a series and tried to cram the stories into a two hour movie and it didn't work, specifically X and Escaflowne. This must be a pretty common thing. What's funny about it is that even though they're cramming a twenty-episode story into two-hours, the pacing is still abyssmally slow!

[drwally]

Wow Paper, I hadn't hear about a new version or a live action one - I will check it out.

I'm talking about the series as well. I've seen "movies" where they took a series and tried to cram the stories into a two hour movie and it didn't work, specifically X and Escaflowne. This must be a pretty common thing. What's funny about it is that even though they're cramming a twenty-episode story into two-hours, the pacing is still abyssmally slow!

OK cool, you guys got the real juice, the TV series. I just looked it up, and the series had 26 epidsodes before it was suddenly cancelled. I thought the movie that came after (late 90s) was as Horatio describe these types of doomed ventures to be - too much crammed into 2 hours with weird sluggish pacing, and all the symbolism and subtext WAY too up front and on display. I really have to say - Evangelion (the series) is what's "it" since Gundam in the 1980s in the anime field, IMO. Instead of just rehashing the old cliches and tropes, EVA really put all the wonderful stuff that came before it and recrafted something new, nice story plotting.

Did y'all know Japan is the 2nd largest market for French film outside of France? That explains lots. I like me a more firmly plotted story, and Evangelion strikes a nice balance between good plotting in the story, as well as more atmospheric scenes. Just look at the girls in that story - they may look Manga-esque, but I think they're just about the strongest female characters in the genre, and all very different characters. haven't seen it for over 8 years, I think I may rewatch it, I want me some EVANGELION.

I would say NEON GENESIS EVANGELION (the TV Series) is probably maybe the best recommendation for a person not real into Anime or Manga much at all - this I think most people would enjoy.

[paper]

I seriously triple dog dare all of you to check out Neon Genesis Evangelion. If you don't, you're simply a coward. If you do, you'll be crying in a corner anyway because it's affecting as hell.

[zombox]

I would disagree with this entirely... if someone is absolutely not into anime you need to introduce them into something that is not so heavily steeped in Japanese culture. Evangelion is a great series, but it is very, very Japanese. I would recommend Lodoss Wars or Ninja Scrolls because both are fun, easy to watch and not buried in Japanese ideology. What most people get turned off by in anime is the strange cultural differences, which Evangelion pushes. American readers do not want a weak, crying lead character that is unsympathetic. They want a strong, heroic lead. That's just the greatest, most glaring thing.

Wow Paper, I hadn't hear about a new version or a live action one - I will check it out.



OK cool, you guys got the real juice, the TV series. I just looked it up, and the series had 26 epidsodes before it was suddenly cancelled. I thought the movie that came after (late 90s) was as Horatio describe these types of doomed ventures to be - too much crammed into 2 hours with weird sluggish pacing, and all the symbolism and subtext WAY too up front and on display. I really have to say - Evangelion (the series) is what's "it" since Gundam in the 1980s in the anime field, IMO. Instead of just rehashing the old cliches and tropes, EVA really put all the wonderful stuff that came before it and recrafted something new, nice story plotting.

Did y'all know Japan is the 2nd largest market for French film outside of France? That explains lots. I like me a more firmly plotted story, and Evangelion strikes a nice balance between good plotting in the story, as well as more atmospheric scenes. Just look at the girls in that story - they may look Manga-esque, but I think they're just about the strongest female characters in the genre, and all very different characters. haven't seen it for over 8 years, I think I may rewatch it, I want me some EVANGELION.

I would say NEON GENESIS EVANGELION (the TV Series) is probably maybe the best recommendation for a person not real into Anime or Manga much at all - this I think most people would enjoy.

[paper]

Right, but those two feature a lot of the stuff anime/manga detractors hate about the anime they've seen.

Ninja Scroll? Seriously? It opens with a rape scene.

[drwally]

Right, but those two feature a lot of the stuff anime/manga detractors hate about the anime they've seen.

Ninja Scroll? Seriously? It opens with a rape scene.

I'm with Paper. I would say Evanglion is definitely a good recommendation for those who aren't real big on ninja and all that stuff (like ME for instance), I don't really like anime, and though there are some pretty Japanese elements, the story arc and character development is not so "amorphous" or "conceptional" as so much Japanese anime like "Ghost in the Shell" or similar stuff. I could make a long list of things in Evangelion that are quite similar to American story points. One in particular is the clever use of "time shifting" back and forth in the narrative the way Bendis does, several years before Bendis did it.

But, here is the thing - the high adventure, super sci-fi stuff is interspersed with lots of psychodrama of a very emotionial kind. If more super action super hero stuff featuring heros of sterling personality is your thing (nothing wrong with that), then maybe not for you. But if you like pretty deeply damaged characters that are understandable and sympathetic and very human, like some more sophisticated American stuff, then - Evangelion. Best of all, the story structure is more like American stuff, and less like a French thing that is very "atmospheric" with a thin plot.

[zombox]

Well, yea. It does. However, it has a very American ideology overall. Vampite Hunter D, perhaps.

If the first anime I ever saw was Evangelion way back when I was 10 or 12... I'd have never watched it again. Not because it was bad, but because even at this point in my life I cannot relate to that story on any level other than intellectual. I cannot identify with any of the characters emotionally. The story is confusing and only explained to any worthwhile degree at the evry, very end of the series. It is steeped in Japanese culture and psuedo-religious mysticism... none of which appeal to large audiences. Its a bad sell to someone who isn't into anime.


Right, but those two feature a lot of the stuff anime/manga detractors hate about the anime they've seen.

Ninja Scroll? Seriously? It opens with a rape scene.

[itsbecca]

My favorite anime of all time is Arcadia of my Youth. I think I cried about 12 times. It's dramatic, it's political, it's space, it's pirates, it's hopeful, it's tragic. Very well done. It's the only one I actually own.

As far as the american thing... I think it's pretty easy for anyone, americans included, to fall in love the characters and beautiful worlds Miyazaki Hayao has done.

[paper]

Zombox:

Well, I think there are plenty of people on the boards with an interest in really complex themes. I just don't see it as an entirely Japanese story either. There's a lot to digest, but I think people would get it.

10 or 12 was a bit young to be embarking upon this kind of viewing. That's a sensory overload. It's seriously like...Godzilla meets Paradise Lost.

[esophagus]

Well, yea. It does. However, it has a very American ideology overall. Vampite Hunter D, perhaps.

If the first anime I ever saw was Evangelion way back when I was 10 or 12... I'd have never watched it again. Not because it was bad, but because even at this point in my life I cannot relate to that story on any level other than intellectual. I cannot identify with any of the characters emotionally. The story is confusing and only explained to any worthwhile degree at the evry, very end of the series. It is steeped in Japanese culture and psuedo-religious mysticism... none of which appeal to large audiences. Its a bad sell to someone who isn't into anime.Culture has nothing to do with this. Japanese culture makes me more likely to check out the Evangalion series. The reason me, and most people here, aren't into Anime and Manga is that it's cheesy, the same, boring, and not my style. It is that way because it's been really stylized by what they think will sell in America, or to put it your way sticking to a "very American ideology". I'm much more interested in seeing something fresh, with the artform n its more purer sense. Just saying.

[cylonpete]

I don't read/collect manga, only because I have to draw a line. I'm pretty easily caught up in collectable things, so I have to force myself not to start another addiction. TV, comics and the mac are enough, at least until I earn more money...

[horatio616]

Right, but those two feature a lot of the stuff anime/manga detractors hate about the anime they've seen.

Ninja Scroll? Seriously? It opens with a rape scene.

Ninja Scroll is one of my favorites of all time. The head-butting scene at the end is frigging fantastic. I don't think it's a beginner film because of the reason mentioned above and the plot is a little convoluted. Probably the best thing for someone to watch is a Miyazaki film like Princess Mononoke or perhaps Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust or Grave of the Fireflies, which is probably the saddest film I have ever seen. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend you do. Just bring a hanky.

[zombox]

Culture has nothing to do with this. Japanese culture makes me more likely to check out the Evangalion series. The reason me, and most people here, aren't into Anime and Manga is that it's cheesy, the same, boring, and not my style. It is that way because it's been really stylized by what they think will sell in America, or to put it your way sticking to a "very American ideology". I'm much more interested in seeing something fresh, with the artform n its more purer sense. Just saying.

Well, actually... they could care less what will sell in America. That is the American distributors trying to find stuff that THEY think will sale in America. The Japanese are not worried about the American market. A lot Japanese read manga to a greater or lesser extent. Manga has a similar model to comic books here in America... except it never had the stigma of being a child's thing in Japan. Since the beginning they have had manga for kids, for teens, for adults and even for older citizens. Consequently, much like video games, it is not a young person's hobby or a niche group. I don't know the exact numbers, but I bet that there are no more than 5 million regular comic book readers in the US (and I'm probebly being very, very generous there). That's about 3% of our population. I know that at least a quarter of Japan considers itself a regular manga reader. That puts them at about 20-30 million in overall readership. Their manga market, in their country alone, is much... much... larger than our comic book market.
If manga makes it over ihere it is because one of the American producers, Tokyopop or Shonenjump or what have you, thinks it will have some American appeal. They don't import the stuff they think Americans 'won't get'. That is why the vast majority of manga and anime which comes here is very 'kid friendly' - cartoons and comic books (like manga) have that knee-jerk niche association and it is easier for them to market. Same reason Japanese game producers consider the American market as an after thought - more Japanese actually play video games regularly. Hope that helps understand some of the marketing.

[conorkilpatrick]

Culture has nothing to do with this. Japanese culture makes me more likely to check out the Evangalion series. The reason me, and most people here, aren't into Anime and Manga is that it's cheesy, the same, boring, and not my style. It is that way because it's been really stylized by what they think will sell in America, or to put it your way sticking to a "very American ideology". I'm much more interested in seeing something fresh, with the artform n its more purer sense. Just saying.

I would say you are over-generalizing by a lot here.

[kwok_talk]

Probably the best thing for someone to watch is a Miyazaki film like Princess Mononoke
Loved that. Though Spirited Away is one of my all time favorite movies.

[horatio616]

Loved that. Though Spirited Away is one of my all time favorite movies.

Spirited Away was a little too inside for me but loved it nevertheless. My second favorite is probablly Nausicaa.

[kwok_talk]

Spirited Away was a little too inside for me but loved it nevertheless. My second favorite is probablly Nausicaa.
Haven't heard of that one. I'll try to remember to check it out.

[drwally]

I would say you are over-generalizing by a lot here.

Hmmm, maybe not. I think we may be in one of those "talking at cross purposes making the same points thing" again. I think I can easily reconcile Eso and Zombox's opinions by rephrasing ESO like so -"(Mainstream) Manga is the way it is because it's been really stylized by what they think will sell IN JAPAN (with all the associated cliches, tropes, archtypes, and overused story gimmicks) that also sells well in the US." Although Zombox is right that Americans have a huge say in what gets distributed in the US. But that doesn't means there's better stuff in Japan, quite the opposite - there are MOUNTAINS of trash in all the mostly accurate publishing figures cited by Zombox. But I'm sure Zombox would agree with that? If not, I can mail some stuff, pretty trashy, ick.

This follow sentence by ESO stands on its own, and it's why I like EVANGELION, and why Miyazaki is quite popular here in Japan-

"I'm much more interested in seeing something fresh, with the artform n its more purer sense. Just saying."

And sorry, saying Japanese companies don't care about what they earn in the US market from what they license is just counter-intuitive. And although Zobox is mostly correct in what he says about the age and demographics of who reads Manga in Japan, EVANGELION is a very particular and unusual case:

1) There was no manga that came before EVA (the TV series), so therefore the market was not exactly "pump primed" as per usual, since so many TV anime starts as Manga hits. Most times, people have heard of most TV anime (or live action shows like dramas) because a hit manga came first.

2) EVANGELION was first put in an "after school" time slot (4-7pm) for kids age 5-15 or thereabouts. It got lousy ratings because the kids did not understand it, and it wasn't just a run of the mill action/comedy show aimed at young people (think: World War Hulk)

3) The Evangelion TV series became a break out HUGE HIT in the late 90s when it was rerun on midnight/latenight TV almost as an accidental afterthought - it attracted huge attention from mostly university students and older.

4) Much of the mystery behind "what does all that symbolism mean, what's it all about?" comes from the fact that the show was prematurely cancelled before the writers/creators of the show could finish telling their story. I consider the last episode of the TV series as the appropriate place to say, "That's where it ends, come to your own conclusions." Great last episode, IMO. The movie that came after it became a hit? NO.

Wally's VERDICT: If you watch the first 3-4 episodes of Evangelion, you will KNOW if it is for you or not, guaranteed. And it is worth trying out.

Zombox is right is saying the main boy character is not a real strong guy (oh no not Shinji), but I'd like to cite the post totebag conversation by Josh, Ron and Conor - Conor just had to say "no thanks" to Strangers in Paradise as a matter of personal preference. I also see Zombox's choice of Avatar - Invincible's main character - a matter of personal preference, totally cool, go with that, I support the personal preference thing 100% (I ain't reading SiP but I do want to read Invincible).

BUT, If Evangelion were just about Shinji, his father, and Rei (blue haired girl), I would not recommend it, it would be too much like other "oh look how artsy fartsy we are" type stuff I (personally) don' like. However, I think the other characters more than balance out a very well done story, that's why I like it. The other characters (refreshingly female) are the ones that are on Shinji's case all the time saying - "hey, time to shit or get off the pot kid, take a stand and be a man!"

BUT, see the first 2-3 or 4 episodes. You'll know if it's for you. Worth a try, just sayin'.

[horatio616]

Haven't heard of that one. I'll try to remember to check it out.

Aww man, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind is fantastic. It even had a theatrical release here in the US under the title Warriors of the Wind. I remember it playing at my local theater at the same time as Teen Wolf. What's funny is the movie poster from its US run was probably plucked from another movie. The poster doesn't match the content of the film. It's probably his most environmentally-conscious film possibly excepting Mononoke.

[drwally]

Becca, Kwok, and Horatio on Miyazaki things:

You goddam-artsy-fartsy-frenchy-airy-fairy... KIDDING!:D

I could stand on a soap box and pound my copy of Robert McKee's book Story, but there again, it's completely a matter of personal preference. As I recite McKee, I'm sure someone who prefers certain Japanese and/or French styles of visual story telling could make equally valid points with lots of "it's what's not said that's important" type story philosophies. I fully admit I am totally biased against things which don't have really firm story plot points. That's just my preference. My best friend is the opposite and prefers the minimalistic plot, tell it through wordless visuals thing, whatever, I think you know what I mean.

There are many moments and sequences in Spirited Away and other Miyazaki works that I find breathtaking and beautiful, and profoundly felt, but at the end of film I found myself asking - "SO were they ever planning on writing a story that tied all that stuff together?" But again, personal preference. Spirited Away was a HUGE hit in Japan, and I have both Japanese and American friends that adore that movie. Suffice to say, if you are not a big fan of French or European Cinema, you may not like Spirited Away and stuff like that.

Incidentally, the people that consider themselves the "real fans of Miyazaki" in Japan say it's all about Naoshika, and basically Miyazki stuff went all down hill about the time of Princess Mononoke (I kind of liked that one, but plods along a bit slow, again my preferences showing through). Yeah, whatever. Fans, you know how they are.

I can't believe i haven't seen Tottoro. I would probably like that...

[drwally]

Aww man, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind is fantastic.

Nauscicaa, (pronounced Naoshika), that's the one. I can spell it in Japanese but not in English.

[six-gun]

When I was younger I bought a Manga and read it like a Western Comic.

It didn't make any sense ;)

[drwally]

When I was younger I bought a Manga and read it like a Western Comic. It didn't make any sense ;)

Japanese do that all the time -- everytime I hand them a Western Comic, they actually do turn the thing over and stare at the back page advert, tryiing to figure out what the thing is about until I flip it back over for them.:)

[dave-accampo]

Haven't heard of that one. I'll try to remember to check it out.

Oh, it's really good. Sort of an Alice in Wonderland story, but with a definite Eastern sensibility.

[dave-accampo]

I don't read/collect manga, only because I have to draw a line. I'm pretty easily caught up in collectable things, so I have to force myself not to start another addiction. TV, comics and the mac are enough, at least until I earn more money...

LOL, that's probably the BEST reason I've heard for NOT reading manga.

You really do have to be careful. I'm not NOT getting any American comics, so adding manga just, well, adds to my budget. That's why I tend to pick things carefully and read them in bursts, often only when traveling (where the size is a plus).

[conorkilpatrick]

Hmmm, maybe not. I think we may be in one of those "talking at cross purposes making the same points thing" again. I think I can easily reconcile Eso and Zombox's opinions by rephrasing ESO like so -"(Mainstream) Manga is the way it is because it's been really stylized by what they think will sell IN JAPAN (with all the associated cliches, tropes, archtypes, and overused story gimmicks) that also sells well in the US." Although Zombox is right that Americans have a huge say in what gets distributed in the US. But that doesn't means there's better stuff in Japan, quite the opposite - there are MOUNTAINS of trash in all the mostly accurate publishing figures cited by Zombox. But I'm sure Zombox would agree with that? If not, I can mail some stuff, pretty trashy, ick.

All of this has nothing to do with speaking for the group's opinions which would be where the over-generalization part comes in.

[esophagus]

Well, actually... they could care less what will sell in America. That is the American distributors trying to find stuff that THEY think will sale in America. The Japanese are not worried about the American market.I'm not claiming the Japanese are. But, I don't live in Japan. I see what the American distributors show me, and that is stuff they think will appeal to their American market. A lot Japanese read manga to a greater or lesser extent. Manga has a similar model to comic books here in America... except it never had the stigma of being a child's thing in Japan. Since the beginning they have had manga for kids, for teens, for adults and even for older citizens. Consequently, much like video games, it is not a young person's hobby or a niche group.I understand that manga is diverse. Again, in Japan though, where I am not. This is why I'm saying I, personally, would like to go for something that hasn't been overly marketed here. The thigns that get marketed here generally aren't things that appeal to me. That's not to say I'm not going to find a good, popular, American, manga series. That's jsut to say that I'm not going to start out by looking for one. On the opposite end I'm not saying every manga not marketed here is good, just that I'm sure they have a tendency to be a lot purer and telling a different kind of story. I don't know the exact numbers, but I bet that there are no more than 5 million regular comic book readers in the US (and I'm probebly being very, very generous there). That's about 3% of our population. I know that at least a quarter of Japan considers itself a regular manga reader. That puts them at about 20-30 million in overall readership. Their manga market, in their country alone, is much... much... larger than our comic book market. That actually has nothing to do with anything I said.
If manga makes it over ihere it is because one of the American producers, Tokyopop or Shonenjump or what have you, thinks it will have some American appeal. They don't import the stuff they think Americans 'won't get'. That is why the vast majority of manga and anime which comes here is very 'kid friendly' - cartoons and comic books (like manga) have that knee-jerk niche association and it is easier for them to market. Same reason Japanese game producers consider the American market as an after thought - more Japanese actually play video games regularly. Hope that helps understand some of the marketing.That and this:. Japanese culture makes me more likely to check out the Evangalion series. The reason me, and most people here, aren't into Anime and Manga is that it's cheesy, the same, boring, and not my style.Are tryign to get at the same thing. I guess I forgot to say the word "American", but that's what I'm saying. I'd rather read the stuff that the Japanese are so crazy over, than the stuff that 13 year old Americans are crazy over.

I think what I said was just misunderstood, by everyone, for lack of the words "American Market".

I would say you are over-generalizing by a lot here. This entire argument is a huge generalization, not just my post.

[esophagus]

All of this has nothing to do with speaking for the group's opinions which would be where the over-generalization part comes in.That's why I started with "the reason me". I'm not trying to put words into anyones mouths, I'm just stating what I feel the general opinion is. When I said "everyone else" I didn't mean just the forums, I mean nationwide. I think it's a fairly safe bet to say that a lot of people who don't read manga don't read it because of the examples they've been presented with. Seeing something fresh and innovative is the way to change that.

[paper]

Cripes, I hate McKee....such a party pooper.

Miyazaki is badass. My personal favorite is Laputa: Castle in the Sky (sky pirates and moss-covered robots). It's wonderful. Mononoke is a little too dark for me, but it's an excellent film. Naussica is a little dry, but good. Porco Rosso is a lot of fun (Casablanca vibe. A war pilot gets turned into a pig-man. Cool flying sequences). Howl's didn't do it for me. Spirited Away is soo different from anything I've ever seen. Such a different world to explore. Loved it.

[dave-accampo]

Cripes, I hate McKee....such a party pooper.

Miyazaki is badass. My personal favorite is Laputa: Castle in the Sky (sky pirates and moss-covered robots). It's wonderful. Mononoke is a little too dark for me, but it's an excellent film. Naussica is a little dry, but good. Porco Rosso is a lot of fun (Casablanca vibe. A war pilot gets turned into a pig-man. Cool flying sequences). Howl's didn't do it for me. Spirited Away is soo different from anything I've ever seen. Such a different world to explore. Loved it.

Ah, Paper, you're a man after my own heart! Agreed on Miyazaki!

I don't hate McKee, as I found some use in his work, but I don't place too much importance in him. I loved the way Charlie Kaufman wrote about him in Adaptation.

[the-mangaman]

Ok so I *used* to collect manga but I spent the collection to help buy my first car... so yeah, was worth it though. But yeah I read most of my manga online and if not I have a few old friends who still sell them cheap.

Manga's I've Read and reviewed in the past.

666 Satan (parody)
1/2 Prince (-_- gender bender)
AIKI
Airgear (fighting + skating warning: Nudity/Politically Funny/Offensive)
Alive!
Bastard!!
Basilisk
Battle Royale (warning: ...u seen the ifanboy about it -_-)
Black Cat
Black God
Blue Dragon (fantasy. warning: slight nudity.)
BLAME! (post apocalyptic world: warning: graphic blood/gore)
Bleach (...kids stuff/ghosts/etc)
Claymore
Death Note (a very shakesperian manga.)
Detective Conan (addictive @_@... stay away mystery lovers)
Dgrayman
Digimon Adventure V-Tamer 01
Digimon Next
Dragon Ball (entire anthology. reprinted.)
Dragon Quest Dai no Daiboken
Elfen Lied (WARNING: GOREY/nudity/very explicit content)
Eyeshield (really good at making
Full Metal Alchemist
Hellsing (warning: gore)
History's Strongest Desciple Kenichi
Inuyasha (...just like the anime sadly -__-)
Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure (all 3 of them.... can't type no more -.-)
Kingdom Hearts I
Kingdom Hearts II
Kurohime (gunplay + fantasy)(innuendo's are everywhere)
Legend of Zelda (all of them o.o ... and they weren't that good)
One Piece (just like the anime)
Naruto (actually better than the crappy anime, it's seemingly reaching it's end plot now)
Pluto (post apocalyptic)
Tenjho Tenge (fighting. warning: moderate nudity)
Vampire Knight (highschool guards keep vampire students away from normal ones)
Yu Yu Hakusho: (spiritual detective keeps the spiritual world in check [great action])
Yu-Gi-Oh!: (you mean you gi no...but yeah.. both of them)
Zatch Bell

Ok so I got lazy at some of the descriptions. XD There's more I've read but this is as far as I can remember... about 3 years back, anything else is english-translated chinese comic which up to date has not technically met the qualifications for a manga (licensing issues). =|

Ok as you can see in that list there are DOZENS OF FAILs for manga and then there are mixed bags, but every manga or so you'll get a winner like "BLAME!" (highly recommended). I've been reading manga since before 95 so I've become very strict about what's good, what's wrong, what could have been done better, what was potential, what opportunities were missed, etc. Actually if you're very political you'll love to see how liberal (and yet at the same time) how far right sided some depictions get in some manga.

For the most part I liked the mangas I've read and for some I'd read them again... some. For stuff like Inuyasha... better leave it on the shelf.

[mikegraham6]

the poll's closed?!?!? no fair, i didn't get to vote!

[AnthonyUSN]

i used to, i havent read manga for a while. the last manga i bought was the Devil May Cry one, but im planning on buying the Dragonball and Dragonball Z collector's collection

[optimus187prime]

Only manga I am reading is Naruto (weekly), and Battle Royale in the hardcovers.

[jmstump]

I really want to read Lone Wolf and Cub. I read the first Samurai Executioner and was a little surprised, it was not at all what I thought. Kinda vulgar and adult.

[the-mangaman]

Well see, optimus187prime, Naruto's a good manga to get people into the door of reading moar manga. But trust me, one look at BLAME! or History's Greatest Desciple Kenichi or maybe Airgear and you'll be stuck on that particular manga. That's the problem with some manga though you can't stop really reading them until they fucking stop publishing them in groups of 8. Usually best to start a manga that's already completed and read a good 2-3 a day (if possible).

[optimus187prime]

Well see, optimus187prime, Naruto's a good manga to get people into the door of reading moar manga. But trust me, one look at BLAME! or History's Greatest Desciple Kenichi or maybe Airgear and you'll be stuck on that particular manga. That's the problem with some manga though you can't stop really reading them until they fucking stop publishing them in groups of 8. Usually best to start a manga that's already completed and read a good 2-3 a day (if possible).

Well I have definitely read a bunch of manga in my time those are the only two books I keep up with now though.

[irishpunk]

Slowly my two friends Maggie and Jackie have been corrupting me with manga for the past year. Both of them have a rather large manga collection. I'd read more of the books they had if most of those books were compelling. That and reading from right to left does get confusing every now and then, but it's not a total pain. Still prefer my graphic novels more than manga, unless it's Scott Pilgrim and it's manga-esque sizing, I love that series.

[cadgers]

Anyone want to recommend some manga for me? I have read and or/reading Monster, Old Boy, and I have tried most of the popular one's a la Naruto and DBZ. The last two I did not enjoy too much. Has anyone on here read 20th Century Boys? I heard that was great.