The Fables Problem

[paper]

Okay. We need to talk about this. It's referred to in passing, usually as a tangent, and then dismissed as apples and oranges.

Why is Fables such a polarizing comic?

Which side of the fence are you on and why?

Why does it evoke such intense reactions, both positive and negative? Is it all in the concept, or is it the execution?

[fred]

I love Fables. The concept turns me off. I shouldn't like this book, but I can't help it. I wish it came out twice a month. The execution is amazing.

[paper]

Can you talk more on why you think the execution makes the concept work?

[fred]

I'm feeling very ineloquent tonight. I will give it a shot tomorrow. I'm inclined right now to write: cuz it does lol rofl lmao btw bff paper

[acomicbookgirl]

I have the first trade because the artist on the first trade is a friend of mine.. I loved the art but I just couldn't get into it..

[alexg]

I just picked up the first trade and am only a bit into it. So far so good. The concept of the fables isn't nearly as annoying in execution as I thought it would be.

I'm inclined to like Willingham because his art on the D&D Basic and Expert rule books was friggin foundation for me.

[kwok_talk]

I'm too new to it to say why it causes the response it does. But I was attracted to the concept of the fairy tale characters in real life. It's quite an investment, and like said a million times by everyone, it takes a bit before you really get hooked.

[jaflanagan]

I do wonder if Fables really is polarizing, or if that's just something generated by the three of us on our show. I mean, I tend to think the book is pretty popular, but I don't think there's a whole lot of ill will out there towards the book, is there? And I would say that most of the folks here, having given it a try, have stuck with it, and eventually come around to quite liking it. There's a build where it gets better and better, and then, all of a sudden, it's like the best thing in the world.

[fred]

I do wonder if Fables really is polarizing, or if that's just something generated by the three of us on our show. I mean, I tend to think the book is pretty popular, but I don't think there's a whole lot of ill will out there towards the book, is there? And I would say that most of the folks here, having given it a try, have stuck with it, and eventually come around to quite liking it. There's a build where it gets better and better, and then, all of a sudden, it's like the best thing in the world.

I get what you mean but it's not totally true. There's been discussion here where there have been people that said they tried it and didn't like it. I can think of a few people off the top of my head. It's nowhere near 50/50 so I don't know if polarizing is the right word but it does extend further than just you guys.

[jaflanagan]

I have such a myopic view of the world.

I realize, I'm starting to gauge my views of comicdoms opinion based on what I hear from this community.

I guess, with Fables, either you like it or you don't. But the people who stick with it end up REALLY liking it a lot.

[keithm]

I would actually be really interested to hear someone explain why they don;t like the book. I think it's great, and the only reason I could think of someone disliking it would be that they just don't like Vertigo-esque books.

Admittedly it is kind of a tough book to get into. I find that just reading one issue at a time, the books is kind of lacking, but if you read a whole trade it's great. I think what's so well done about the book is that when you hear the concept, it's kinda graon-worthy, and the concept could quickly become formulaic. Willingham has done a great job keeping such archtypical characters interesting, and the plots are always inventive and never fall into storybook rehashes.

[comhcinc]

this book is alot like the group Atari Teenage Riot (http://www.google.com/musica?aid=at0gR8i1njB&sa=X&oi=music&ct=result) when that band came on the scene in 1996 there was only two responsives to them. either people loved them and proclaimed them their new lord or hated them. there was no in between. people who love it could only drool and talk about how badass it was, people who hated it could only spit and talk about how crappy it was, but no one really could give an answer why.
the reason for this(as i see it) is because it was an emotional response, it did something in that reptilian part of the brain where instinct lives. there hidden away from logic and critical thinking you either embraced it or it replused you.
when you get down to it that means it's good art.

[paper]

It could very well be that there's no rhyme or reason as to why an individual thinks Fables is good or bad, but I'd still like to explore the idea a little more.

If you have been reading it, and have had time to develop a strong opinion, please try and pinpoint why you feel this way. If you like the art or writing, that's fine....but it's not saying all that much. What about the art or writing do you like or dislike? Since the book is so very conceptual, and people seem to be split (maybe not 50/50, but split nonetheless) on whether they like the concept or if they think the execution makes the concept work for them, it seems like there's something in that execution that really serves as a pivot, because there are people who love this book that hate the idea of it (Fred).

[humphrey-lee]

Is it polarizing? From my experience, Fables is only "polarizing" in that there's about 30K who read it between monthlies and trades and realize it's a fantastic book, and there's the rest of the comic book readers who pretty much don't know it exists or opt to buy, I dunno, ****ing X-Men: First Class instead of even trying it (because it dun have no superheroes...)

[s-sanchez]

I often wondwer if a book/movie/whatever becomes polarizing because lots of people seem to simply love it.

I dont read Fables myself (The concept doesnt interest me) but I notice on the net that things often get hated on because other people enjoy them. Dont get me wrong, obviously that doesnt apply to everyone in the whole wide web but I often think it's a factor.

[paper]

Is it polarizing? From my experience, Fables is only "polarizing" in that there's about 30K who read it between monthlies and trades and realize it's a fantastic book, and there's the rest of the comic book readers who pretty much don't know it exists or opt to buy, I dunno, ****ing X-Men: First Class instead of even trying it (because it dun have no superheroes...)

Sure, but there are those who have tried it and don't like it.

I'm just asking for people to ellaborate on their opinion. Why is it the best book ever from a stylistic standpoint as opposed to the hyperbole-soaked message board declaration that it's "Just good, and if you disagree, your mother probably services most of the men down at the docks anyway, [slur]."

The same for those who hate it. I think Conor mentioned that he really hated the second trade because the concept was cool, but the execution was highly flawed. What were those flaws?

I wanted to do a real analysis of a book, and I figured Fables would be a good choice because there are people on either side of the fence. Makes for a better discussion than "Lets' gang up on Front Line." (genuinely fun as that is).

[s-sanchez]

Sure, but there are those who have tried it and don't like it.



Well yea thats why I said it doesnt apply for everyone, I just think its sometimes a factor. Sometimes i'm sure people end up hating a book or movie because they're tired of people constantly praising it. It's this reason why I'm surprised I've never seen such a backlash against INVINCIBLE (which I dont think I've personally ever seen a negative thing said about it).

Of course what I'm saying isnt really what you're asking, but I'm at work, bored, and feel like sharing. :p

[paper]

Personally I think Invincible is wildly overrated (still very good, but not spectacular) but that's neither here nor there.

I'm sure hype does play into it, but I wouldn't think a rational person would dedicate all of their attention to the hype once they've read it. The attention would shift to the actual content.

A lot is said of the Fables "turning point," the transition from trade 2 to trade 3 or 4 that really wins over the audience. Does this exist, and what is so significant in this shift? Is it just content or is it a style change?

[fred]

I don't know that I can necessarily rationalize why I like it. I'll give it a shot and try not to give me too much shit about it. This is a book I shouldn't like. The concept of it turns me off but in actuality it really works.

The Things I Like:


1) that Willingham has taken public domain characters andA) not used the Disney-fied versions of themB) given them full lives outside of what you know while still maintaining the things you know of them from fairy talesC) taken them to places that may seem difficult to see without reading the series but seem totally logical in the given context


2) the relationship dynamic of the characters and the interplay that develops as a result. some examples include:A) Snow and BigbyB) Bigby and The North WindC) Bigby and FlyD) Snow and Rose RedE) Jack and the whole communityF) Beauty and the Beast3) The vastness of the world that Willingham has created. It's not only that. It's also that he's tried to reconcile so many of these different classic fairytale stories/archtypes into a cohesive unit and has succeeded.


There's definitely more that's cool about it, but this should serve as a good start.

[paper]

I'm not out to give anybody shit about liking it. Because I really want to like it.

Those are perfectly reasonable answers, Fred. Thanks for responding.

I'm just curious if everyone finds something different to like in the book than the next person, and how universal those elements might be.

[fred]

thank you sir
glad to help

[jaflanagan]

The thing I really like about it is that there's a huge world, and it's all co-existing. It takes a while to build that up, but after establishing these 20-30 characters, you can start to explore that world, which works like an overlay of our world. It's all going on now, under our very mundy noses. I'm a fan of that concept.

I didn't like the second story so much either, because I think they got away from Fabletown too quickly, to show us and establish the Farm. And of course, in issue form, I dropped it there. Coming back, I appreciated it more the second time.

Also, in regard to character, I really liked how there are so many characters, and they all have well defined and unique characterizations which make sense. It just works together very nicely. Further, the motives of the characters are not black and white. You can spend a lot of time with this book wondering if someone is being "evil" or "good" or just self-interested. So many of the characters can't be pinned down. What side is Prince Charming on? Or Jack? Or the gingerbread witch? Or Pinnochio? Or even Bigbie?

We just don't know, and it could all turn at any time. In that sense, it reminds me a little bit of the show Oz (a big favorite of mine), where any of the characters could go in any direction at any time, and it would never be considered out of character.

[fred]

We just don't know, and it could all turn at any time. In that sense, it reminds me a little bit of the show Oz (a big favorite of mine), where any of the characters could go in any direction at any time, and it would never be considered out of character.

A recent point that underscores this is the departure of Flycatcher. For the first 58 issues or so he's been this benign kind of helpless character and in the last issue he took off for the homeland to go on a killing spree.

[kwok_talk]

A recent point that underscores this is the departure of Flycatcher. For the first 58 issues or so he's been this benign kind of helpless character and in the last issue he took off for the homeland to go on a killing spree.

AHHH. Spoilers....

[fred]

my bad
chances are it still doesn't ruin anything. I haven't said why or who he's off to do in.

[kwok_talk]

my bad
chances are it still doesn't ruin anything. I haven't said why or who he's off to do in.

Ha. no biggie. My first fables read was the 1001 nights trade, which seriously confused and spoiled things for me. I thought flycatcher's story in that was really sad (helplessly having to watch his family get raped and killed b/c of his curse kicking in at the wrong time)

[fred]

Ha. no biggie. My first fables read was the 1001 nights trade, which seriously confused and spoiled things for me. I thought flycatcher's story in that was really sad (helplessly having to watch his family get raped and killed b/c of his curse kicking in at the wrong time)

now that's a spoiler

[kahunablair]

Well I personally think you mentioned something earlier Fred that I think has a lot to do with it.
I was trying to explain what Fables was to a non-comic reading friend, and the first thing she wanted to know if it was, "like a Disney movie".
I think that's the biggest issue right there. The concept has been done to a degree and most people don't want to give it a chance.

That being said it's not the only thing. I think Fables is at the center of a Perfect Storm of Fanboy cynicism. You have the Disney-fication, the slow build of the story, the Emo-Goth Vertigo stigma, and plus its an atypical comic storyline (ie non-capes and tights book).

[humphrey-lee]

That being said it's not the only thing. I think Fables is at the center of a Perfect Storm of Fanboy cynicism. You have the Disney-fication, the slow build of the story, the Emo-Goth Vertigo stigma, and plus its an atypical comic storyline (ie non-capes and tights book).

That last point is pretty much the rub. Despite the fact that we've seen Preacher and Transmetropolitan and the Invisibles in spite of what Sandman did about 20 years ago, and books like V for Vendetta, From Hell, etc etc etc, what it comes down to a lot of people is that it simply doesn't have guys in tights hitting each other, and it has nothing to do with Hulk starting a war or it doesn't Countdown backwards or something gimmicky. I know there's a bunch of well adjusted readers here that understand comics are allowed to be something more than just guys in spandex in your typical "good vs evil" rolls, but there's a ton of readers out there that will dismiss it for that same reason and simply can't be lead to believe that a "Disneyesque" book about The Big Bad Wolf and Snow White can possibly be better than their precious Ultimates, or New Avengers, or insert random top ten seller. It just doesn't compute.

[kahunablair]

Well I can't really be mad at people for the preconceived notion that a comic book has to feature guys in tights.
I grew up a Marvel boy in the early 90s so anything that didn't have to do with the X-Men or Venom, sucked to me. Did I give other books a chance? Sure, but I had no interest in them.
It was only since I've started getting back into comics that I've realized there is a whole other realm of books out there that are damn good. Ten years ago I wouldn't have been caught dead reading something like Box Office Poison or Fables, but I proudly do now.

Now I just want to be clear I don't think that everyone that has a thing against Fables does so because they want men in tights. I just think that a group of people fall into that category and the remaining haters fall into the other 2 groups.

[humphrey-lee]

Now I just want to be clear I don't think that everyone that has a thing against Fables does so because they want men in tights. I just think that a group of people fall into that category and the remaining haters fall into the other 2 groups.

Well, I'm just getting more into it looking like more and more each day comic readers are kind of segregating themselves into those that do read superhero comics, and those that don't. Sure, we know there's a good bit of us that fall into that middle ground and read anything regardless of genre and just base things on quality, but for the most part the lines seem to be drawn. And books like this get tend to take the brunt of the argument between the two since it's usually touted as the "champion" of the more Indy reader, or the in between reader. It's just how these things go down.

[ekval]

For me, I think a lot of what Fred said is very true.

But I would also add that while Willingham doesn't Disneyfy the characters, he also doesn't take them totally in the opposite direction. In other words, they aren't all just totally depraved or out for sex, booze, drugs, whatever. I can easily see that as some other authors take on these public domain characters.

Instead, these characters actually have some complex motivations and character behind them rather than being one dimensional, either just depraved or just shiny and Disney. A great example for me is Prince Charming from trades 1 to 3. Great development there and something that I didn't see coming really after the first issue.

As for other reasons, this book just mixes good humor and fun with these well known characters with more serious gravitas in a lot of places, the art is just plain great and somehow with the style of coloring and such it almost feels like a sort of throwback comic, but in a good way.

[alexg]

Finished the first trade yesterday. Enjoyed it. Looking forward to diving into volume 2 which I know is the much maligned volume.

I've been trying to imagine what it would be like if I came to Fables without they hype--I think I'd like it a lot more actually because I would have been deeply impressed with the world Willingham has created.

Has anyone ever read any Charles DeLint? Fables reminds me of that guy's stories.

[cam-]

I think Josh and Fred have both hit on what makes Fables good, for me anyways.

It really is about the characterization. I suppose it's similar to Red Son, in that, it's recognizable characters in unrecognizable scenarios, and yet they still feel so true...

Plus, it's brimming with clever ideas, often I'll find myself reading and smiling at the twist that I should have seen coming but didn't, or a throw away joke that comes off like a well timed punchline.

And it's frank about Sex and Death and War in a fantasy context, nothing new for a vetigo book I suppose, but not just f this and f that for the sake of being a MAX book (looking at you marvel).

But again, it all stems back to the characters, which is perhaps WHY it's such a slow boil for so many, it takes time to get to know these versions of the characters, and even then they're as old and wise as the hills, so they're very very sneaky sir (like John Tuturro).

[horatio616]

Can you talk more on why you think the execution makes the concept work?


The concept, while cute, is not what keeps this book going, but the way Willingham incorporates political shenanigans and great character interaction is what makes Fables a must-read.