The "Table" Argument...

[thirdcoast]

I am watching DiggNation 100 now and this discussion is crazy!

I agree with Alex on this, if it was a Apple product he would be creaming his pants....

Kevin's argument of "How are you going to get it to work with the install base now?" is dumb...

Consoles are a good way to look at it...you can't play a 360 game on your Xbox 1....so you got a XBox 360....


What are your thoughts on this part?

[filch]

My thoughts are we don't need ANOTHER thread about it

[thirdcoast]

Sorry did not see a specific thread on it, please combine if needed...

:o

[crugg]

its true, Kelvin is very much hypocritical on this topic. He says "nobody has seen it in real life". My question is, has anyone seen the iphone working properly in real life as well?:)

[tokenuser]

its true, Kelvin is very much hypocritical on this topic. He says "nobody has seen it in real life". My question is, has anyone seen the iphone working properly in real life as well?:)Kevin can be as critical as he likes. I saw an earlier prototype up at the MS campus in Redmond a couple of years ago. It was slick then, and even better now.

[logant]

its true, Kelvin is very much hypocritical on this topic. He says "nobody has seen it in real life". My question is, has anyone seen the iphone working properly in real life as well?:)

And yet, 50 episodes ago there was a similar story and Alex didn't think much of it. But now because it's Microsoft, it's amazing.

[darknessgp]

Sorry did not see a specific thread on it, please combine if needed...

:o

that's because all got locked for stupidness...

Did you check the main episode thread? There is some discussion about it there.

[windwaker]

I usually agree with Alex, but he must have been really, really drunk this episode. He came off as a total douche, and wouldn't even let Kevin (who is his employer) talk. He kept going on about how he only dislikes it because it is a Microsoft product, which is stupid: Kevin has a 360 and says that he does like the direction Microsoft is taking Vista. He looks at things objectively, which is what Alex has failed to do (he even argued against global warming in one episode).

Kevin was right, and you can't really argue this: "Surface" will not work like it is shown in the previews for a LONG time. Everything shown on the Surface site is in a controlled environment, with wifi enabled cameras and phones with bluetooth enabled to auto connect to this device. First of all, who has a wifi enabled phone? Second, for the five or six who do, can you install third party drivers on them making this type of instant connection possible? Same for phones; nothing is constantly looking for bluetooth network points.

Kevin was just saying that the technology isn't evolved enough yet, and Microsoft is advertising this the wrong way. It's possible in a controlled location, but a lot of what is shown is not standardized enough to create something like this that worked with all devices. Microsoft is advertising this the wrong way: a) this is too expensive for the average person, aka, it probably won't be the coffee table PC, and b) the practical uses (ordering at a restaurant, for instance) look AMAZING, but the camera/phone stuff just isn't going to happen when this is released, and for a while afterwards.

Even if you disagree with Kevin, Alex was being a total douche. He was practically screaming at Kevin, who is, again, his employer. I think Kevin was looking at it objectively, because if you look back forty episodes, the previous incarnation of a device similar to this received the same comments from Kevin (and Alex, who didn't like the idea and never saw it working). Keep in mind that in one episode, Alex argued against global warming.

I think Surface is cool, but Kevin's argument was totally legit, and Alex shouldn't be such a douche.

[casework]

its true, Kelvin is very much hypocritical on this topic. He says "nobody has seen it in real life". My question is, has anyone seen the iphone working properly in real life as well?:)

Actually, yes.

Also, a point Kevin tried to make was how many times has Apple shown a product and not delivered? None in recent memory.

People don't become "fanboys" because they like a shiny logo, it's because they trust the company to put out good products based on their past or current usage of the product. We all have our favorite companies... computers, TVs, cameras, cars... Yet Alex's only argument when Kevin doesn't like something is because it isn't Apple. Is that Kevin's fault?

Alex tries to turn around and say, "I don't want that 5% of the market share to turn a blind eye to this," but he shits on that "5%" any other time and is now trying to use it to his advantage. News flash, Alex, if only 5% of people weren't interested in this product, at least until it is usable and somewhat attainable, it's not going to make a damn difference. Meanwhile, I guess I'll keep living in the dark ages that is Apple loyalty.

[tokenuser]

its true, Kelvin is very much hypocritical on this topic. He says "nobody has seen it in real life". My question is, has anyone seen the iphone working properly in real life as well?:)BTW ... who is Kelvin?

[jimmydhand]

I'm going to side with Alex on this kevin's initial reaction was this is more MICROSOFT hype and as such he didn't give it a go well not till Alex argued with him that he started to think on it. Plus did they actually say this is a product that we will release on(insert date) or did they just say that hey we know this technology has been out for a while this is our first concept and our interpretations on this technology. if this was a car company then would we be having this discussion they release concept cars every other month that never actually get released to the main consumer but they do help the creative process along so that when the technology finally comes out it will be better that the 1st concept.

plus as i think is the norm now a days this turns in to a apple Microsoft argument, which is why the threads turn stupid and people just start flaming.
oh and yes they were too drunk to really be taken serious let them talk about it when they are sober it will be more of a productive argument.

[shky]

If it had an Apple logo on it, Kevin would probably be right to be excited. That's because Apple has shown in recent years that they can actual provide futuristic technologies today.

Microsoft simply hasn't come out with any interesting innovations in years. This table may be everything they promise, but we've no track record to base our hopes on, only a series of disappointments.

Yes, they're both drunk and acting stupid, but the Apple logo has become enough to assume that a product will be new and exciting. How long has it been since the MS logo signified the same?

[windwaker]

This is why I think that Alex is bad for the show; he tries to turn everything into a black and white argument.

[tokenuser]

You should all Google the Microsoft Home (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/286739_msfthome28.html)... they have products sitting there that are amazing. How many of them will see the light of day is another question, but there is no doubt that they will be used at some level in the future.

[logant]

This is why I think that Alex is bad for the show; he tries to turn everything into a black and white argument.

Have you been watching from the beginning? No Alex means no Diggnation, and vice versa with Kevin.

[nightstrm]

Alex is just as big of a fanboy as Kevin, just in the opposite way. Anything Microsoft does is instantly the coolest thing since sliced bread, wheras anything Apple does is boring. Seriously, I don't think I have seen a Microsoft rep go on and on so much about how great the Zune is. If I were Kevin, I would have definitely called him out on that fact alone.

Yes, I agree that Alex is a total douche.

[nelsonmaud]

i still think they are good friends just a overheated drunk discussion i dont have apple because if you live in a regular size city not a major one like san fransisco or n.y you cant find apple software and the closest person that repairs the apple pc is 100 miles away and apple softwares so friggen expensive.i like microsoft anyways but apple needs to be everywhere not just the big citys microsoft is everywhere .i live ina city the populations 250k so its not that small here either .:confused:i think they are still buddys but kevin did knock it down too quick but alex got too aggitated too.i think it was too many beers but they are a team and usually are funny together when there tipsy:D

[windwaker]

Have you been watching from the beginning? No Alex means no Diggnation, and vice versa with Kevin.

Yeah, I kind've realized this after I posted this. I've been watching since episode one, but I guess there could be a crappier cohost than Alex. Dan Huard would undoubtedly be the best cohost. :D

Yes, I agree that Alex is a total douche.

I'm not alone then. Phew.

[jackson329]

Kevin's argument of "How are you going to get it to work with the install base now?" is dumb...


And you seriously think that Alex's argument of "You're just an Apple fanboy" is better? Are you retarded?

Kevins argument was based on technical questions he had. Alex's argument was to attack Kevins personality instead of give Kevin answers to his technical questions.

[md2389]

Honestly, they were both being idiots. Alex wouldn't STFU and let Kevin make his case, and Kevin was being hard headed right off the bat by not giving it a fair chance. Kevin's arguement that it wouldn't "sync automatically" was so flawed its not even funny. Even today you can tell windows to look on the internet for drivers for devices. Who's to say that the table PC wouldn't do the same thing via wifi? Honestly, this is a good idea that SHOULD be developed further. If the both of them weren't so plastered they both might have realized this. ;)

[darknessgp]

...
Kevin was right, and you can't really argue this: "Surface" will not work like it is shown in the previews for a LONG time. Everything shown on the Surface site is in a controlled environment, with wifi enabled cameras and phones with bluetooth enabled to auto connect to this device. First of all, who has a wifi enabled phone? Second, for the five or six who do, can you install third party drivers on them making this type of instant connection possible? Same for phones; nothing is constantly looking for bluetooth network points.

Kevin was just saying that the technology isn't evolved enough yet, and Microsoft is advertising this the wrong way. It's possible in a controlled location, but a lot of what is shown is not standardized enough to create something like this that worked with all devices. Microsoft is advertising this the wrong way: a) this is too expensive for the average person, aka, it probably won't be the coffee table PC, and b) the practical uses (ordering at a restaurant, for instance) look AMAZING, but the camera/phone stuff just isn't going to happen when this is released, and for a while afterwards.
...

How do you know it won't work like in the previews? No release date means they could take their time and let manufacturers implement the needed tech, not to mention they could release there own compatible products.

a) It has never been said to be marketable for personal use, but would be for hotels, restaurants, etc.
b) Again, how do you know it won't happen at release?

I think 1 thing everyone needs to realize is that with most technological advancements, it doesn't always have to be backwards compatible. Yea, if this comes out it probably won't work with certain devices, but will it have devices out there that will work with it? idk, but it sounds like a product that almost completely hinges on it, though you can use it without a separate device.

[jackson329]

Honestly, they were both being idiots. Alex wouldn't STFU and let Kevin make his case, and Kevin was being hard headed right off the bat by not giving it a fair chance. Kevin's arguement that it wouldn't "sync automatically" was so flawed its not even funny. Even today you can tell windows to look on the internet for drivers for devices. Who's to say that the table PC wouldn't do the same thing via wifi? Honestly, this is a good idea that SHOULD be developed further. If the both of them weren't so plastered they both might have realized this. ;)

I disagree. Kevin has the right to be hard headed about anything he wants to be. Alex is definitely like that about every single Apple product they ever talk about. And I think we can all agree that Alex is much harsher on Apple than Kevin is on MS. The difference is, that when Kevin doesn't like something, he gives technical reasons for it. Questioning whether the table will be able to interact with current devices is a totally legitimate question. Obviously the way he phrased it makes it sound like he's not impressed with Surface, which he isn't, but at least he says WHY he isn't. Alex doesn't once try to argue with Kevin on any of his doubts about the product. He just throws a tantrum about Kevin being an Apple fanboy. If Alex had given a proper argument (obviously throwing in fanboy references here and there), this would have been a totally legitimate piece of the show. But using "You're just an Apple fanboy" as the ENTIRE argument, isn't even an argument at all. It's just obnoxious.

I'm sorry, but Kevin wasn't in the wrong here at all. In fact he was being rather good about the whole thing by just agreeing with Alex at then end of the fight so they could move on. He was just stating his opionion about the product. I first saw this thing before I watched ep. 100, and I wasn't very impressed either. The reason was that right away I could tell they were just displaying another prototype. There is no way in hell that Surface ships anytime soon, if at all. It just wouldn't work correctly. I mean a camera under the table to identify the devices? That seems like something that would come out of an undergrads engineering design project, not a professional R&D lab. If this thing is gonna work, it has to use wireless communication, and not enough devices have that capability. Yes a few do, but not enough for Surface to get wide spread adoption. Like Kevin said, they're selling the future. Unfortunately, MS is notorious for coming up with these products that will supposedly ship right away, that never end up seeing the light of day.

[crugg]

I meant Kevin I was drinking and watching the episode at the time. Sorry about that, and thanks for the replies.

[dcjoedog]

Kevin isn't just drinking the Apple kool-aid, he is taking it introveneously. He needs to get off of Apple's jock and accept the fact that other companies make cool products, and that even includes Microsoft. I am no MS fanboy, hell the admin is the site can confirm I use Firefox on an Ubuntu machine, but I do own an XBOX 1 and I have nothing against Windows either.

Kevin needs to stop being such a fanboy and begin to see things more objectively.

[windwaker]

How do you know it won't work like in the previews? No release date means they could take their time and let manufacturers implement the needed tech, not to mention they could release there own compatible products.

a) It has never been said to be marketable for personal use, but would be for hotels, restaurants, etc.
b) Again, how do you know it won't happen at release?

I think 1 thing everyone needs to realize is that with most technological advancements, it doesn't always have to be backwards compatible. Yea, if this comes out it probably won't work with certain devices, but will it have devices out there that will work with it? idk, but it sounds like a product that almost completely hinges on it, though you can use it without a separate device.

Uh, you're a moron for not doing your research and still arguing. How is Fall (specifically, November) 2007 not a release date?

Did you even go to the Microsoft Surface site? Most of the footage was of this in a living room, which is how Microsoft is advertising this. I understand that this would work way better in a restaurant/business setting, but that's not how this is being advertised.

Are you going to own a Wifi compatible camera, or a phone with the drivers needed to auto connect via bluetooth and have the features built in that allow abilities shown with Surface, when it comes out this Fall? Microsoft hasn't announced that it is working with any companies on making this happen, so I really think that the only thing we're going to see at release are limited capabilities with a few cameras/phones, plus all the non-peripheral stuff (which is still, admittedly, very cool).

Kevin isn't just drinking the Apple kool-aid, he is taking it introveneously. He needs to get off of Apple's jock and accept the fact that other companies make cool products, and that even includes Microsoft. I am no MS fanboy, hell the admin is the site can confirm I use Firefox on an Ubuntu machine, but I do own an XBOX 1 and I have nothing against Windows either.

Kevin needs to stop being such a fanboy and begin to see things more objectively.

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH APPLE. Just because Kevin likes Apple products does not mean he hates Microsoft. In fact, how many times has Kevin said good things about Vista and the 360? Many times. How many times has Alex said anything good about ANY Apple product? Not once, at least on Diggnation (although I highly doubt he's praised it on one of the TSS episodes I missed he was in).

Kevin is objective on this issue, and Alex is completely subjective. Simple as that.

[frankiethewaffle]

I agree with both here. I do not disagree with either person either. I see the abilities of the tech. But, I personally would have no use for it on a daily basis. It is cool, I don't see me buying it. (Also, although I would like to get a MAC just to use and learn OSX, I am a Windows guy.)

[cornflak3]

Its a cool technology, and if it does everything Ol Bill says it will be able to 5 10 years down the road cool, and just think since its a Microsoft OS based technology free drinks and food for anyone who knows how to hack it.........

[jdzurisin]

Just to add some unneeded fuel to the fire...

Microsoft Surface Parody (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY)

[magunwarrior]

Oh god I saw that yesterday, ****ing hysterical.

[casework]

I sent that to Kevin and he got a kick out of it. Hopefully he shows it to Alex. :D