Bill Willingham: Hack or Not?

[rntaboy]

I have an acquaintance who loves to espouse his belief that Bill Willingham is an utter hack. He likes to cite certain "awful" choices Willingham has made when working with previously established characters, such as when he started working on Batman and suddenly Batgirl starts killing people, something she had previously actively chose not to do. The only thing I've read of his is the first trade paperback of Fables, which I really enjoyed. My acquaintance railed on it for lack of originality as is came out after the 10th Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_Kingdom) miniseries. I think that his thinking is biased, that Fables, while also using Fairy Tale characters, uses them to different ends. I think you can chalk it up to parallel thought.
What do you guys think of Bill Willingham?

[fred]

welcome to the forums. Bill Willingham's Fables is excellent. He's definitely not a hack.

[pride-of-brandon]

I have no interest in reading Fables. So I'll give him sight-unseen HACK status. Just because I know this Thread is going to heretical to Fables fans.

[alexg]

Willingham had been around for a long time before Fables. Anyone who played Basic and Expert D&D way back when knows his work. I fail to see what's hackish about his work...and I'm not even a big fables fan.

[horatio616]

Anyone who's read his non-Fables work, from Fables to Elementals to his secret masterpiece Pantheon knows that Willingham likes to take chances. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but at least he's not afraid to try. Your friend sounds like one of those fanboys who gets riled up everytime some dares do something different to one of his 'babies', which is why this industry, specifically the 'Big Two', is in the rut of telling the same story over and over again.

[ekval]

I don't think I've read much of his besides Fables and perhaps thatBatman arc, but I definitely don't think he is a hack.

Fables alone would secure that in my book.

[jaflanagan]

Sounds like your friend doesn't like what Willingham did with some of his favorite characters. I think Horatio summed up my thinking pretty well.

A hack does something that other people did before, and brings nothing new to the table. Willingham doesn't do that. He took the empty framework of fairy tales, breathed an enormous amount of life into them, and that was all original. He also figured out a way to fit all of that together with an original overarching story that's been going on for five years.

Hacks don't last that long, or sell books, because the Vertigo readers are smarter than that.

[pride-of-brandon]

There aren't a lot of HACKs in comics. Alot of guys my get called a hack because they're one-trick ponies. I think Bill Willingham is one of those guys.

People who like Fables will buy it forever and love Bill evan though his Batman/Robin stuff isn't that great.

Garth Ennis gets called a one-trick pony on iFanboy all the time. (Connor and Ron mostly) But I love 90% of everything he does, because I like his sensabilities.

Willingham is in the same boat.

[jimski]

Etymologically, "hack" is short for "hackney" and is meant to describe a crazy mad ho for cash who pounds out easy, workmanlike pieces for dough. I've only read his Fables, but in doing so I can't remember ever going, "Oh, the old 'goldilocks is a gun-toting radical' story again. Way to churn it out, Willingham; go cash another gigantic Fables check."

[alexg]

Etymologically, "hack" is short for "hackney" and is meant to describe a crazy mad ho for cash who pounds out easy, workmanlike pieces for dough. I've only read his Fables, but in doing so I can't remember ever going, "Oh, the old 'goldilocks is a gun-toting radical' story again. Way to churn it out, Willingham; go cash another gigantic Fables check."

Well said Jimski--btw--dig the avatar

[jaflanagan]

There aren't a lot of HACKs in comics. Alot of guys my get called a hack because they're one-trick ponies. I think Bill Willingham is one of those guys.

People who like Fables will buy it forever and love Bill evan though his Batman/Robin stuff isn't that great.

Garth Ennis gets called a one-trick pony on iFanboy all the time. (Connor and Ron mostly) But I love 90% of everything he does, because I like his sensabilities.

Willingham is in the same boat.

Brandon, if you haven't read Fables, and you even say you're not going to, I'm not sure why you're making pronouncements on the guy. Honestly, I haven't read much of his work outside Fables, and I'm not qualified to judge how good he is, outside of that sphere. You might like Garth Ennis, and think the other guys don't (which isn't exactly true), but that doesn't really have anything to do with the topic at hand.

My partners got a lot of shit for talking shit about Fables without having read it. They were really just doing it to give me a hard time, but either way, they both went out and read the book after that. So they, in fact, "put up."

As far as people who like Fables continuing to buy it and thinking he's a good writer....yeah. That's what you do when you like something. That's not really blind devotion. You're allowed to do some work that's not as good. Even if Robin wasn't beloved, or even good, that doesn't mean Fables can't be.

[conorkilpatrick]

Garth Ennis gets called a one-trick pony on iFanboy all the time. (Connor and Ron mostly)

I don't want to derail the thread, but wow, that's not true. I said I thought that The Boys was a rehash of his old work. Preacher, The Punisher, War Stories - those are all different and all great.

[six-gun]

I don't want to derail the thread, but wow, that's not true. I said I thought that The Boys was a rehash of his old work. Preacher, The Punisher, War Stories - those are all different and all great.

I'm sure that I would love his Punisher, there are just so many trades I want to get to and those aren't at the very top of my list.

Any favorites that I should move up? Anyone?

[six-gun]

Hack: a person, as an artist or writer, who exploits, for money, his or her creative ability or training in the production of dull, unimaginative, and trite work; one who produces banal and mediocre work in the hope of gaining commercial success in the arts

Thought I'd give some perspective.

[horatio616]

I'm sure that I would love his Punisher, there are just so many trades I want to get to and those aren't at the very top of my list.

Any favorites that I should move up? Anyone?

I liked Unknown Soldier but it does have an American-government-is bad angle to it. Plus the ending is a bit of a letdown.

I enjoyed Pride & Joy, which is more of a stand-alone story. Nothing superheroic. Just a guy trying to escape his past. Good one.

[six-gun]

I liked Unknown Soldier but it does have an American-government-is bad angle to it. Plus the ending is a bit of a letdown.

I enjoyed Pride & Joy, which is more of a stand-alone story. Nothing superheroic. Just a guy trying to escape his past. Good one.

Thanks I'll be sure to check those out

[humphrey-lee]

Willingham loves to keep himself in the fantasy genre of comic booking because that's what he does best, I think that's it. I think even he understands that he was out of place on a book like Robin, much like Steven Seagle was on Superman, and that's why neither of them were around long on those respective books. But sadly, apparently an inability to write well received superhero stories (or at least ones for the more iconic ones) draws comparisons to hackitude from people who can't be bothered to read the works that the writers themselves know are their bread and butter.

Read some of what else Willingham has done, especially for Vertigo, he's not a hack. He's just a guy that works a lot better when almost completely unfettered by editors. He can't be put in a box like tends to happen when you take a job with either of the Big Two writing one of their established properties. It just happens to some guys. But Fables is easily one of (and in my opinion THE best) works out there right now, his stuff like PROPOSITION PLAYER and his THESSALY and etc and it shows he's a quality writer but he's definitely got an opus going on in FABLES when compared to his other work.

S'funny, I seem to remember another writer who used to work primarily in one specific genre, and even though he put out some quality books slightly divergent from it that were excellent, they were never quite the same compared to his big title. And his superhero work was kind of bland and even downright bad in comparison. What was his name, what was his name... Neil Gayman or something or other. I think he was British. I don't remember anyone ever calling him a HACK...

Hrm, wonder whatever happened to him...

[jaflanagan]

I would put Garth Ennis in those same shoes.

Hitman being a notable exception.

[horatio616]

But sadly, apparently an inability to write well received superhero stories (or at least ones for the more iconic ones) draws comparisons to hackitude from people who can't be bothered to read the works that the writers themselves know are their bread and butter.


Good analysis.

Have you ever read Pantheon? Am I the only one? It's basically a reimagining of the last Elementals/Justice Machine story with original characters. It's not terribly nuanced, but it sure is a lot of fun. Not a crossover in sight, either!

[humphrey-lee]

Good analysis.

Have you ever read Pantheon? Am I the only one? It's basically a reimagining of the last Elementals/Justice Machine story with original characters. It's not terribly nuanced, but it sure is a lot of fun. Not a crossover in sight, either!

Nah, never got to that. I honestly haven't read much Elementals either. I didn't know it existed until about four years ago when I got on Fables and did some research on Willingham, went to my shop guy and read a few of his back issues. I need to buy all those eventually.

[horatio616]

Nah, never got to that. I honestly haven't read much Elementals either. I didn't know it existed until about four years ago when I got on Fables and did some research on Willingham, went to my shop guy and read a few of his back issues. I need to buy all those eventually.

It's very much a product of its time, so be warned. I look on those old days of seeing Comico and Neal Adams's Continuity on the newstands with great fondness. I can't remember the last time I actually bought a comic off of a newsstand. About 20 years probably.

BTW, the only place you're likely to find a complete set of Pantheon is on eBay.

[the-screw-on-aaron]

As a huge Willingham fan I must strongly object!

You don't call him a Hack for putting new twists on classic characters that's ridiculous! I've read a book called Best-Loved Folktales of the World (http://www.amazon.com/Best-Loved-Folktales-Anchor-Folktale-Library/dp/0385189494)which is a collection of the original folklore tales from all over the world. In the book the original characters that are in Fables as well are presented just like the characters we knew as kids, more gruesome in fact. In Fables these templates of the characters Willingham has taken in his own way are nothing like the original fairy tales except in their origin.

I fail to see the difference between Willingham writing a book about his own take on old characters and somebody like Alan Moore writing a book about his own take on old Victorian characters in his book The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Does anybody think that Alan Moore is wrong as well?

By the way I'm rereading fables now and it's excellent!