The ULTIMATE Question

[comhcinc]

if marvel decided that it was going to end one of it's universes, which one would you like to see them keep? why?

ultimate or 616?

[davegraham]

I like chocolate and I like peanut butter. Now Tony Stark is telling me I have to choose a side? Madness.

I'll go with peanut butter. 616.

[comhcinc]

okay, but why?

[mikegraham6]

Poll...POLL!!!! Everyone forgets the greatness that is the poll option:D
I don't really know how to answer this because i like some Ulimate books and some 616. If USM could be transfered over to 616, i'd keep the 616.
I find the two Universes come in waves. the Ultimate U used to be the flavour of the month a few years ago, but ever since Civil War 616 has taken over. I love the post civil war Marvel U so that makes the 616 more interesting right now. But if you asked me before CW and before the Ultimates 2 had enormous delays, i would have said Ultimate

[comhcinc]

pol pot?nay polls are cop outs!

anyway for me, it's 616 all the way. the ultimate universe is just to dark for me. there is just not enough happy for me.

[quintessentialtheillest]

616. The Ultimate Universe has some cool stuff going on, and it's fresh. But all my attachment is to the Original Universe no matter how many times they put it through the ringer.

Any Casanova fans catch the 919 shoutout to Marvel books?

[davegraham]

okay, but why?

Oh, sorry, I missed that part.

Why? Because Tony Stark is making me choose. Ideally, I enjoy buying both. In a one-or-the-other scenario I'd go with 616 because I love continuity and I don't think it is something that hinders story-telling. I just read the Newsarama interview with Brubaker about his year on Uncanny X-Men. That story sounds like something that respun established characters (like the Ultimate universe is known to do) and it came out of plot points (the third Summers brother, Shi'ar power struggles, Starjammers, etc.) from old continuity. You can create new characters in the 616 and you have continuity to draw from.

The issue is story-telling, people. Not whether one universe is inherently superior to the other universe.

[paper]

pol pot?nay polls are cop outs!



??????????????

Since the only Ultimate storyline I like is Spider-man.....I'll go with keeping the regular universe.

[jimski]

Marvel has killed a universe in my lifetime. They ended those New Universe books with some wacky, Watcher-cosmic s***. I think they may even have involved the Beyonder. Be careful what you wish for.

Anyway, yeah, the Ultimate universe would have to go. Too many ultimate characters/storylines are changed-for-change's sake versions of the original books. (Cyclops has a goatee? Golly, Mr. Millar, you've truly brought the character into the 21st century. I'll contact the Pulitzer committee.) How many times have I been reading an Ultimate book and thought, "Hey, I remember when this happened in the Marvel Universe"? Too many times.

Have I shocked you with my fervor? Because I shocked myself.

[comhcinc]

i'm with you 100% Jimski

[jmf]

Keep the 616 even though i got back into comics thru the ultimate line. Theres just too much history for them to destroy in the 616 and even if they did all some bad writers would do is do the same stories from the 616 and put into the ultimate universe.

[briangilmore]

Hi, I'm the Devil's Advocate:

Keep the 616! There's a lot more that can be done with the ORIGINAL characters we all know and love! It seems like consequences that happen in the real universe (yeah, the REAL universe) are actually consequences, but don't seem as big in the Ultimate Universe because even after all these years it still feels like an experiment!

Keep the Ultimate! There's fresher ideas and not as much continuity baggage as there is in the 616 (that is starting to show in the storylines and is warranting too many peripherals)!

[rlnewby]

keep 616

I think that there are still good stories to be discovered in that tower Babel of a continuity.

oh and I forgot the Ultimate Answer...42

[tonystark]

Switch out Spider-man with Ultimate Spider-man but keep the rest of 616...

[r0blaw]

Switch out Spider-man with Ultimate Spider-man but keep the rest of 616...

I'll second that one. I read Ultimates and Ult. X-men, but Ult Spidey is the only one that is better than it's counterpart and comes out on time. I'm looking at you Millar and Hitch!

[jurassicalien]

I do enjoy both, but if only one is going to survive I'd go with 616, mostly because I do really like the Ultimate U, I can't ignore the history, plus I like the characterizations better from some in 616 better the Ultimate (Wolverine, Hulk, Cyclops). THought Ultimate U does have some leg ups (Spider-Man, Steve Rogers, Nick Fury)

[mastap]

THought Ultimate U does have some leg ups (Spider-Man, Steve Rogers, Nick Fury)

Really? I get Spiderman, but with the exception of the WW2 sequence in the first issue of Ultimates, I've found the Ultimate cap such a weaker character than 616, in fact ult cap seems to be a very one-demensional character, while 616 cap has been fleshed out into a unique aand complex character. the only thing that Ult cap has over regular Cap, is that he's alive.

As for Nick Fury, both Howling Commandos Fury, and Sam Jackson Fury stand on equal but seperate pedistals of cool

[jgg0610]

pol pot?nay polls are cop outs!

anyway for me, it's 616 all the way. the ultimate universe is just to dark for me. there is just not enough happy for me.
This comment completely surprised me because I've always viewed it as just the opposite. On the Ultimate side you've got Spider-Man making great quips and dealing with very light high school problems while over on the 616 side, he's dealing with his aunt being shot.

That being said, I think if they were going to do it, they should do it Crisis on Infinite Earths style where pieces from each Universe are preserved. Then we could have the X-Men and Avengers from 616, Spider-Man from Ultimate, and Jessica Jones from the Max universe and everything would be rosey.

[racemccloud]

When the original line of "Ultimate" books debuted, it was arguable that each and every one of them were superior in quality, artistry and entertainment value than their 616 counterparts. I would argue that, today, the opposite is true. Of the following list, which title would you continue to read, the current 616 variant, or the "Ultimate" book:

Ultimate Spider-Man vs. Amazing Spider-Man
Ultimate Fantastic Four vs. Hitch and Millar's Fantastic Four
Ultimate X-Men vs. Astonishing/Messiah CompleX/Uncanny X-Men
The Ultimates 3 vs. New Avengers

In almost every case, the 616 version wins out for me, as opposed to 2000/2001 when the Ultimate books started hitting and the 616 titles were... not what you'd call great. Ultimate Spider-Man is still my choice over Amazing, although it's hard to ignore the "Brand New Day" juggernaut. Ultimate Fantastic Four has had some good moments, but has "ultimately" proved the FF only work within a familial structure, not a high school teenager structure. Ultimate X-Men never seemed as much of a reinvention as Ultimate Spider-Man, and it has been missing more than it's been hitting for at least the past year while the X-titles are on the best run they've been on in arguably over a decade. It's hard to even call Ultimates 3 the same series as the stellar Ultimates 1 and 2; 3 just has such a different feel, and it may not be for the better. Meanwhile, New Avengers (and Mighty, to a lesser extent) has become a lynchpin must-read of the Marvel Universe.

I suppose we'll wait and see what Ultimatum and Ultimate Origin do, but if every Ultimate book but Ultimate Spider-Man was cancelled right now, I think I'd be all right with that. Thoughts?

[gungadin]

Excepting Ultimate Spider-man, the 616 would prolly win out because the Ultimate universe just doesn't suck me in with the exception of that title and perhaps The Ultimates...

[conorkilpatrick]

Ultimate Spider-Man wins.

[gungadin]

Ultimate Spider-Man wins.

Oooo! You gave me a good idea! What if they apocalypsed the Marvel universe and then OMD-ed USM into the "Reg" U and made him canon Spidey?

That was like... five made up words and nickname shortening things...

[esophagus]

I think Ultimate Spider-Man is the only one I've ever really enjoyed more than the 616 counterpart. The rest are still good, but I'm not sure I ever liked them as much.

[esophagus]

Oooo! You gave me a good idea! What if they apocalypsed the Marvel universe and then OMD-ed USM into the "Reg" U and made him canon Spidey?

That was like... five made up words and nickname shortening things...Your good idea, or what a lot of fanboys have been assuming would happen since they launched the ultimate line?

[gungadin]

Your good idea, or what a lot of fanboys have been assuming would happen since they launched the ultimate line?

Yeah essentially... But instead of the universe, it'd be just one title...

[jimski]

Once upon a time, there was MC2, a full line of comics in an alternate MU future. The line died off, until eventually all that was left was the runaway smash Spider-Girl.

I feel like this is what will be going on with the Ultimate universe four years from now. Ultimate Spidey will be the only thing left standing. I know I've dropped just about every other book in the line. What is its point? Is it still fulfilling its mission statement of continuity-free, baggage-free contemporary versions of the original characters? What new has been created?

[dave-accampo]

I'll second that one. I read Ultimates and Ult. X-men, but Ult Spidey is the only one that is better than it's counterpart and comes out on time. I'm looking at you Millar and Hitch!

Count me in for this option.

You know, they had it right there, too...the big "retcon" at the end of OMD should have been reseting Peter to Ultimate Peter!

I mean, if you're gonna do a giant reset, why not just go allllll the way?

Hmmm, wait a minute...

Then Spidey's only been Spidey for, like, a year...and then Ron's head will explode because he'll wonder who the Spider-man was that was in the stories set in the 10 years of the 616 MU prior to new spidey's appearance, but Conor will be OK with that because he'll recognize that's EXACTLY what DC did with Wonder Woman and Hawkman and the Legion of Super-heroes after the first Crisis.

And then there will be retcons to explain the original spider-man. And then a Zero Hour event to explain the retcons...and then another Crisis to explain how Zero Hour didn't really fix anything...


Aw crap, can I change my answer...?

[dave-accampo]

But my real answer:

If forced to pick one, I'd go with the 616.

that said, no one's forcing me, so I ain't picking. I like Ultimate for Spidey and I like the regular universe for a bunch of other books. And I'm perfectly content with that.

[dave-accampo]

Oooo! You gave me a good idea! What if they apocalypsed the Marvel universe and then OMD-ed USM into the "Reg" U and made him canon Spidey?

That was like... five made up words and nickname shortening things...

Oops...should have read the whole thread first...:D

[xyzzy]

I'll be the odd man out and say, keep the Ultimate U, destroy the 616. Simply for the reason that I have more invested in the Ultimate universe. I've read Ultimates v. 1 and 2, several trades of USM and UFF and the Ultimate Galactus storyline. Percentage-wise that's a much bigger piece of the ultimate universe than what I've read in the 616.

On the other hand, I'm still reading Runaways and I'm not currently reading any Ultimate titles. But, hey, that just means that I get to read Ultimate Runaways were Alex is the skinny blonde girl and Molly turns out to be the mole.

[kahunablair]

Ultimate SpiderMan is of course, Gold, but Ultimate FF had some really good stories too.
If it was more consistent I'd love to see it take over for the Regular version, sadly it's not.

[mikegraham6]

what happened to the Ultimate U?? it used to be so interesting and now Spidey seems to be the only one that is worth reading? Is marvel unable to focus it's creative energies on both universes simultaneously? it seems that only one can shine at a time.
I guess i can take solace in the fact there is suppose to be a big shakeup coming down the road in the Ultimate U (Ultimate Origins and Ultimatatum) but Loeb is writing one of those so take that for what it's worth. I say if marvel doesn't imporve it's Ultimate books it should just cancel them and focus on minis because those are the only halfway decent Ultimate books they are producing (excluding USM of course)

[mikegraham6]

Ultimate SpiderMan is of course, Gold, but Ultimate FF had some really good stories too.
If it was more consistent I'd love to see it take over for the Regular version, sadly it's not.

that really surprises me. i was on that book from the very beginning but as soon as Mike Carey took over it fell apart for me. It started with the god awful intersteller Gods/Thanos storyline. I toughed it out because i thought my hatred stemmed from my dislike of cosmic stories, but then the Diablo followup was even worse, i had to drop it.
So it's improved then? i haven't heard much talk about that book

[kahunablair]

What happened? I think that the Ultimate X-Men and FF both lack what Spidey had. Focus.
It seems like X-men just became a chance for different creators to hop on and say, "Hey! I used to love (random character), I'm going to write a story about him/her/it!"
FF I think is starting to come out of it a little bit with the over arching Cube storyline, but it still feels disjointed.

[kahunablair]

that really surprises me. i was on that book from the very beginning but as soon as Mike Carey took over it fell apart for me. It started with the god awful intersteller Gods/Thanos storyline. I toughed it out because i thought my hatred stemmed from my dislike of cosmic stories, but then the Diablo followup was even worse, i had to drop it.
So it's improved then? i haven't heard much talk about that book

The Diablo and the following storyline almost made me drop it, but I hung on. If you weren't a fan of the God/Thanos bit, then I wouldn't recommend picking up the book anytime soon.
The "ramifications" from that series just started to happen now. It's good, not bad, but not great.

[hank41]

616 has a better number of quality stories. Also, no Ultimate Daredevil.

[mikegraham6]

616 has a better number of quality stories. Also, no Ultimate Daredevil.

Ultimate Daredevil is actually pretty badass, but there's not much difference between him and the 616 Daredevil besides the fact that he doesn't get along with Ultimate Spider-Man

[kahunablair]

Did anyone read that Ultimate Daredevil/Elektra series? Good? Bad?

[dave-accampo]

Did anyone read that Ultimate Daredevil/Elektra series? Good? Bad?

Yeah, I read it. Kinda "meh" actually. Rucka tried to do something with her, play on her greek roots a little more, but it just really ended up being pretty bland, as I recall.

[racemccloud]

Ultimate SpiderMan is of course, Gold, but Ultimate FF had some really good stories too.
If it was more consistent I'd love to see it take over for the Regular version, sadly it's not.

The best Ultimate FF story, IMHO, was the "Ultimate Negative Zone" with Annihlus. And Utlimate Dr. Doom is almost as bad as Movie Dr. Doom. Doom is amazing, but apparently only works when he's A.) a king B.) pontificating endlessly to himself about his greatness (to record and play back later, as revealed in the Marvel/DC Spider-Man/Superman/Hulk/Wonder Woman crossover.)

[labor_days]

Is there an Ultimate Kang?

[kahunablair]

I actually really liked what they did with Doom originally. The fact that he was a King of a group of Hobos, and then used that to start his own little kingdom.
Out of all the FF Re-Imaginings, I thought his was one of the better ones.

Yeah, I read it. Kinda "meh" actually. Rucka tried to do something with her, play on her greek roots a little more, but it just really ended up being pretty bland, as I recall.

Hm... Maybe I'll check it out if I'm bored.

[dave-accampo]

Hm... Maybe I'll check it out if I'm bored.

If you're at a con, and you see it in one of those "50% off all trades" bins? That'd be worth it, I think.

[labor_days]

I completely disagree with everything you said about Rucka's Wonder Woman run.

Dave, you are my new Post-Crisis Bizarro-Labor.

You are off the hook, Kahuna.

[dave-accampo]

I completely disagree with everything you said about Rucka's Wonder Woman run.

Dave, you are my new Post-Crisis Bizarro-Labor.

You are off the hook, Kahuna.


Dammit, does this go back to the conversation about code words? Is "Ultimate Elektra" is code for Wonder Woman now?

[labor_days]

Haha. I get hyper-reactionary over Rucka's WW run. He drew on WW Grecian roots as well in that series. But it was awesome.

I thought that was what you were referring to.

You're still my Bizzaro, Dave.

[dave-accampo]

Haha. I get hyper-reactionary over Rucka's WW run. He drew on WW Grecian roots as well in that series. But it was awesome.

I thought that was what you were referring to.

You're still my Bizzaro, Dave.

I don't know how Bizarro I can be; I LOVED Rucka's WW. Collected the entire run plus the hardcover OGN, The Hiketiea.

[labor_days]

Scratch that.

Dave, BFFs?

[paper]

Everybody on the boards has a doppleganger and a Bizarro. And they can shift at times.

Dave and I almost always agree on popular entertainment. If he really likes a book it's usually a sure bet for me.

Mike is my bizarro. He hates all that I love.

But does he hate...himself? ;)

***

Does the new Amazing Spider-Man have the potential to outdo Ultimate Spidey? I haven't read any yet.

[esophagus]

Everybody on the boards has a doppleganger and a Bizarro. And they can shift at times.

Dave and I almost always agree on popular entertainment. If he really likes a book it's usually a sure bet for me.

Mike is my bizarro. He hates all that I love.

But does he hate...himself? ;)As far as I know, I'm still both doppleganger and bizzaro-less.
Does the new Amazing Spider-Man have the potential to outdo Ultimate Spidey? I haven't read any yet.I'd also like to know. Let's hope the answer is yes. That'll be a fine day for Spidey.

[esophagus]

Is there an Ultimate Kang?
You tell me.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n243/esophaguss/Kang.jpg

[kahunablair]

Scratch that.

Dave, BFFs?

DANG NAB BIT!

[racemccloud]

***

Does the new Amazing Spider-Man have the potential to outdo Ultimate Spidey? I haven't read any yet.

I'll say "no" right now... but I'd give it some time. Ultimate Spidey has been my consistent favorite book now for seven years, though, so I don't see it being supplanted (even by Amazing) anytime soon.

[racemccloud]

I actually really liked what they did with Doom originally. The fact that he was a King of a group of Hobos, and then used that to start his own little kingdom.
Out of all the FF Re-Imaginings, I thought his was one of the better ones.



Yeah, when he first appeared, he was King of the Drifters or Squatters or Hippies or Hobos or Whatever, all in rags with the clawed feet and such, and next time he showed up he was a king who had turned those squatters into a prosperous European country and he was all "616'd" in the cloak and gauntlets and robes and such. Interesting idea, but it always stank to me of editorial saying, "Hmmmm... that hobo thing was not so hot; quick, let's make this guy Dr. Doom, and fast!"

[labor_days]

Ult. Kang lacks a certain style I look for in my time traveling galactic conquerors.

Really hard to improve on perfection, I'll admit.

[dave-accampo]

Scratch that.

Dave, BFFs?

Bizarro Friends Forever, Labes. ;)

[dave-accampo]

As far as I know, I'm still both doppleganger and bizzaro-less.

But you love The Question, Eso, which makes you the illegitimate son I never had. :D

[jimski]

As far as I know, I'm still both doppleganger and bizzaro-less. Once upon a time, I left an iFanboy voicemail stating that Darrell was my Bizarro, and as I recall he essentially suggested that he would kill me. So I don't play that game anymore.

That's not to say there aren't people I consider my opposite in every way.

[esophagus]

But you love The Question, Eso, which makes you the illegitimate son I never had. :DWell that's just awkward, but I guess it qualifies me as a doppelganger. :p

[labor_days]

Bizarro Friends Forever, Labes.
Natch.

(Darrell scares the shit out of me. That last voice mail he left made me afraid for Josh's safety. Conor can handle himself. But Josh? He's a fragile flower.)

[esophagus]

Anyone know offhand when the last time Darrell left a voicemail was? I'm afraid I've missed out on the fun, somehow.

[dave-accampo]

Well that's just awkward, but I guess it qualifies me as a doppelganger. :p

Tell me about it. Have you been getting the birthday cards with the 5 dollar bills that I've been sending?

[esophagus]

Tell me about it. Have you been getting the birthday cards with the 5 dollar bills that I've been sending?No, but keep in mind you only have 16 days to get the next one here. I wouldn't mind an advance on my allowance.

[dave-accampo]

I'll say "no" right now... but I'd give it some time. Ultimate Spidey has been my consistent favorite book now for seven years, though, so I don't see it being supplanted (even by Amazing) anytime soon.

I guess that's REALLY the Ultimate question, isn't it? Could they downsize the Ultimate line to just being "Bendis Does Spidey His Way!", and... would anyone notice?


Truthfully, I don't care much about universes. All I know is that Bendis' singular vision of Spidey, while having its own ebb and flow, is really the only Spider-man that's truly interested me for a very long time now. And it's the only Ultimate book that I've really stuck with from start to current issue.

[mikegraham6]

If you're at a con, and you see it in one of those "50% off all trades" bins? That'd be worth it, I think.

I say avoid at all costs, it was a total waste of time, it was a watered down take-off on Frank Miller's Elektra origin and the original was much better. The only highlight was the introduction of Ulitmate Bullseye, but even that was weak. Plus it was crappy Salvador Larroca art :rolleyes:

[mikegraham6]

Mike is my bizarro. He hates all that I love.

But does he hate...himself? ;)


Awwwwww, that's sweet!....unless the winking smilie denotes sarcasm:rolleyes:

Does the new Amazing Spider-Man have the potential to outdo Ultimate Spidey? I haven't read any yet

personally i don't think it comes close, but i don't really have much love for the Brand New Day stuff

[dave-accampo]

So a sub-question has occurred to me, based on responses here:

It seems to me that Ultimate Spider-man is really the worthwhile book from this line. My question is: if you were tasked with "fixing" the Ultimate Line, what would you do?

- Would you cancel the line, except for Spider-man? Maybe it a singular entity?

- Would you try to recreate the success that Bendis has seen with his version of Peter Parker?

One of my thoughts this morning was: maybe Ultimate Spidey worked because it was a single character and Bendis approached the character with long-term plans. Millar was always more spectacular in nature -- he intended Ultimates to be two giant blockbusters. Other folks like Vaughan or Ellis were just there to play with their visions of some established characters.

So, my focus might be long-term writers telling stories focused on single, iconic characters set in the Ultimate Universe.

But who would they be?

A Hulk series, perhaps? The flipside of Peter, Bruce is the 30-ish scientist with a real darkside. He's what Peter might have been if not for Aunt May and Uncle Ben?

Or maybe a new take on Thor?

A Brubaker penned Nick Fury series?

Would any of it work? Or is it best to just have Ultimate = Bendis' Ultimate Spidey?

[esophagus]

if you were tasked with "fixing" the Ultimate Line, what would you do?For starters X-Men: First Class would become the Ultimate X-Men title. Ultimate Fantastic Four would be scrapped completely. Spidey would continue on as usual. Ultimate Iron-Man would become a regular ongoing series. The Ultimates 3 never would have happened. Ultimate Cap would be an ongoing. Each of these would certainly have to have some long term vision to it. Somewhere to go in the future.

[euchre0]

Would you cancel the line, except for Spider-man?

Pretty much. I notice that people still buy Ultimate FF and Ultimate X-Men, so there is some staying power. However, if I was in charge, I'd scrap it all except Ultimate Spider-Man.

If a creator came with a specific vision and would be willing to stay on a title for 50+ issues, then we'd talk about starting that title. Also, If a heavy hitter like an Orson Scott Card comes along with a concentrated vision, we'd think about that, but would be very reluctant to let someone else mess with it. If it was all scrapped except Spider-Man and a year or two later Brubaker came along with an Ultimate Fury mini-series, I'd run with that because the "Ultimate" name has enough clout to it now.

But ultimately, let's just stick with Ultimate Spider-Man.

[dave-accampo]

For starters X-Men: First Class would become the Ultimate X-Men title.

Ooh, I like that. Jeff Parker seems like a good long-term guy, too. That would seem to fit a little better than the current Ultimate X-men...

[kahunablair]

It's funny, if you wanted me to only look at the main 4 Titles and make my decision about the Ultimate line off of them, I'm not sure what I'd choose.

When I take into account all the other little minis, I don't think I'd let you touch the line.
Sure they all aren't Gold, but they are fun, "What if?" style send up to classic stories.
Ultimate Galactus story was fun.
Wolvie Vs Hulk is pretty nifty, if only it came out.
Ultimate Iron Man is Good Times.

So I guess my answer would be to wipe out the newest Ultimates, put a steady writer on FF and X-Men, and you would have a great line again.

If your car has a flat tire, you get a new tire, you don't ditch the car by the side of the road.

[dave-accampo]

If a creator came with a specific vision and would be willing to stay on a title for 50+ issues, then we'd talk about starting that title.

I like this as a premise. Rather than go for the big names that won't stick around, get folks who WANT to work on a corporate comic for 50+ issues. The downside is that you won't get Millar, Vaughan, Gaiman, Ellis, et al.

But folks like Bendis and Brubaker have shown that they really like working in the long form (Bru on Cap, for example) for the long term, and that's what I think the Ultimate U. should concentrate on.

[euchre0]

The downside is that you won't get Millar, Vaughan, Gaiman, Ellis, et al.

But folks like Bendis and Brubaker have shown that they really like working in the long form (Bru on Cap, for example) for the long term, and that's what I think the Ultimate U. should concentrate on.

Now that I think about it more, if Marvel really wants it to be a line that should appeal to kids and new readers who don't want too much continuity, it really wouldn't hurt to take chances with random writers coming on and off.

Plus, as far as big names go, Bendis wasn't a big name until he was on Ultimate Spider-Man. I've been unclear whether it was Ultimate Spider-Man or Daredevil (or both) that propelled Bendis, but he started both around the same time. So if you find a writer who is interested in being in for the long haul, you get more vision. Then again, long haul writers aren't the norm anymore.

[esophagus]

Ooh, I like that. Jeff Parker seems like a good long-term guy, too. That would seem to fit a little better than the current Ultimate X-men...I think Conor is the one who suggested it. It's stuck with me since. Just seems like a much better match.

[dave-accampo]

If your car has a flat tire, you get a new tire, you don't ditch the car by the side of the road.

I get what you're saying, Kahuna, but I have to wonder if Ultimate X-men is a case of a flat tire, or if it's more than the whole car is a lemon.

I mean -- maybe I'm not being fair. Spider-man works because it's purely Bendis' vision, but it also rebuilt Peter from the ground up. I don't know what Ultimate X-men is really unique or different enough to matter.

Is that because of a lack of a Bendis...or is the concept, on the whole, just flatter? I'm not sure that the Ultimate X-men work in the way Ultimate Spidey works (conceptually, not just in execution).

I could be wrong.

[jimski]

I think Ultimate X-Men was my first exposure to Mark Millar, and I found it very jarring. I was hooked by Ultimate Spider-Man, and so I thought I'd take a chance since UXM was only on #8 or 9, but it did not do it for me. "Colossus is a gay arms dealer? That's... modern."

The Jeff Parker approach, in contrast, seems much more appealing and much less for-its-own-sake.

[dave-accampo]

I think Ultimate X-Men was my first exposure to Mark Millar, and I found it very jarring. I was hooked by Ultimate Spider-Man, and so I thought I'd take a chance since UXM was only on #8 or 9, but it did not do it for me. "Colossus is a gay arms dealer? That's... modern."

The Jeff Parker approach, in contrast, seems much more appealing and much less for-its-own-sake.

This makes sense to me. I mean, look, Bendis was never trying to be "edgy" he was just trying to modernize Peter. But he truly modernized him. Peter of the 60's wouldn't automatically be an Extreme Sports enthusiast if you brought him into the new millennium. No. He'd be kinda nerdy, close to his aunt and uncle, etc. Which is what Bendis did.

Millar likes flash. He likes spectacle. He likes to paint in big bold strokes and thus spin commentary and satire. It worked for The Ultimates. I'm not sure it works in the long term on a property like the X-men.