The Sopranos - The Final Episode

[conorkilpatrick]

It all ends tonight. Will Tony go out in a hail of bullets? Will he turn state's evidence? Will the final shot be Tony sitting in a lawn chair staring at the pool?

http://blog.coolz0r.com/images/sopranos1.jpg

[fred]

I think that Tony dies. It's not the ending that I want, but Chase seems to be going out of his way to make sure that we know that he thinks that Tony is a bad guy. I think that it's unlikely that he'll let Tony win (although that would be my preference).

I think that Paulie Walnuts betrays him

I think that a lot of people die

[jgg0610]

I think that Tony will definitely die, but I have a feeling that its going to be a family member who betrays him, either AJ or Carmella. They both don't seem to be taking the on the run part too good.

[jo-relrollins]

I'm actually excited to see this episode. I'm like JGG,i think a family member might just take him out. I just don't know who it would be.

[acomicbookgirl]

For some odd reason, I thought that this series was already over and was thrown off when I heard on PTI and Mike and Mike talking about the last episode.. Oh well..

[jgg0610]

For some odd reason, I thought that this series was already over and was thrown off when I heard on PTI and Mike and Mike talking about the last episode.. Oh well..
Ahhhh!!!! If any show's a must watch, this is it.

[acomicbookgirl]

So i've been told... ;) :)

[jgg0610]

So i've been told... ;) :)
Don't feel too bad. I missed the boat on this one and got caught on the first four seasons on dvd from netflix. Did it in a month. We would watch an entire season in a weekend. It was awesome, followed by a serious let down once it slowed down.

[acomicbookgirl]

I'll probably DVR tonights episode then go Netflix happy with the rest.. Ay, my Netflix queue is neverending..

[jgg0610]

I'll probably DVR tonights episode then go Netflix happy with the rest.. Ay, my Netflix queue is neverending..
This I understand. There are some things on there that I added like 4 years ago and still haven't percolated up to the top yet. It gets depressing after a while if you think about it.

[fred]

I could see a family member leading to Tony's end (eg AJ tells a friend where they're staying) but I can't see Chase making one of them kill Tony or help those that do. I think it would be a huge mistake from a guy that doesn't make a hell of a lot of big ones.

[aleibo]

Really looking forward to tonights episode. Gonna have some italian food and a nice bottle of wine while watching.

[jgg0610]

I could see a family member leading to Tony's end (eg AJ tells a friend where they're staying) but I can't see Chase making one of them kill Tony or help those that do. I think it would be a huge mistake from a guy that doesn't make a hell of a lot of big ones.
I couldn't see Carmella intentionally hurting Tony, but I couldn't certainly see it from AJ. Little shit can't get his act together and blames everybody but himself. Who better to get back at than dear old dad? Only thing that could make it more perfect is if this was next Sunday, Father's Day.

[luthor]

My cable has been out for the last hour. I can't believe I'm missing this.

*SIGH*

[conorkilpatrick]

Um....... huh?

[kwok_talk]

I think the final episode was messed up in airing here. I decided to watch the ending. The daughter got to the diner, then the screen went blue. Then it jumped to the ending credits. Please tell me that wasn't the actual ending.

[marshallg]

That's BS. There's gotta be a movie now.

[fred]

Robert Shimmel has a joke about masturbation in which he states that the definition of masturbation is "exciting one's own genitals, usually to orgasm". He says: "What am I going to do? Tease myself? Yeah, yeah, yeah, NO"

I feel like I just threw my dick down and screamed no.


How the hell is that the ending? I can't see how that will please anyone. Also, why spend the whole season and the whole episode teasing big shit for the ending just to give it the high school party movie ending? The party is over and everyone goes back to their lives.

And onion rings? It ends on onion rings? How is that dignified? How does that fit? It's not even Italian food.





RETARDED

[conorkilpatrick]

I think the final episode was messed up in airing here. I decided to watch the ending. The daughter got to the diner, then the screen went blue. Then it jumped to the ending credits. Please tell me that wasn't the actual ending.

No, that was the ending.

[conorkilpatrick]

How the hell is that the ending? I can't see how that will please anyone.

Ron; it pleases Ron, He totally called it early in the year. I just got off the phone with him, he feels vindicated.

(Although he thought it was going to end on Tony sitting by the pool as referenced by the first post in this thread)

[fred]

No, that was the ending.

Nope. Tony died when he got shot by Junior last season. That's my play.

[jo-relrollins]

Ok, so i wasn't crazy when my screen went FREAKING BLACK. What the H--L. I am so lost. Did Meadow go inside?Did they live? What happened?

[fred]

Ron; it pleases Ron, He totally called it early in the year. I just got off the phone with him, he feels vindicated.

(Although he thought it was going to end on Tony sitting by the pool as referenced by the first post in this thread)

Well that's just silly. Ron Richards the gaunlet has been thrown. I call you out my friend. Explain yourself.

[kwok_talk]

Ok, so i wasn't crazy when my screen went FREAKING BLACK. What the H--L. I am so lost. Did Meadow go inside?Did they live? What happened?

Even knowing that is the real ending, just makes it even more confusing.

[fred]

Ok, so i wasn't crazy when my screen went FREAKING BLACK. What the H--L. I am so lost. Did Meadow go inside?Did they live? What happened?

Well I'm declaring that the show ended approximately 18 episodes ago. But for the sake of argument we'll say that tonight happened......

Meadow's going to do porn for AJ's new movie company and I say: "It's about time".

[jo-relrollins]

I sat with my mouth open until John from Cincinatti came on. I still think that maybe i missed something. I just don't believe that. They could not have done that after all the hoop la about Tony possibly dieing.

[kwok_talk]

Meadow's going to do porn for AJ's new movie company and I say: "It's about time".

I've never really watched the show much, but she seemed like quite a cutie.

[conorkilpatrick]

I sat with my mouth open until John from Cincinatti came on. I still think that maybe i missed something. I just don't believe that. They could not have done that after all the hoop la about Tony possibly dieing.

Well, to be fair, the show didn't create the hoopla. They cant be held accountable for what the critics and fans speculate about.

[jgg0610]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that was a stinking shit pile of an ending. Not the worst ending to a show ever (that honor belongs to Home Improvement), but it's down there near the bottom, definitely.

[fred]

Fred's Living Room 10:04 PM
TV goes black

Fred: What the? Oh my god. (laughs). I feel like I have a live lobster in my ass
Fred's Wife: I feel like I went on a date with Mike Tyson. My ass and my head hurt.

[fred]

Well, to be fair, the show didn't create the hoopla. They cant be held accountable for what the critics and fans speculate about.


Here's the thing: they kind of did. I've heard that they shot 5 endings and that nobody but the producers knew which was the ending that would air. Despite this, there were people out, specifically Sil for example, doing interviews saying that it was a crazy perfect ending, that Tony was in the scene alone, that it was grisly and gruesome.

[conorkilpatrick]

About halfway through this episode I felt like I knew exactly where this was going and while I'm surprised that they went this way knowing that 99% of the people are going to hate it, I'm really not surprised.

It was okay. I didn't love it and I didn't hate it. After the brief bit of panic when I thought my DVR had malfunctioned, I thought about it and the ending makes sense.

[conorkilpatrick]

Here's the thing: they kind of did. I've heard that they shot 5 endings and that nobody but the producers knew which was the ending that would air. Despite this, there were people out, specifically Sil for example, doing interviews saying that it was a crazy perfect ending, that Tony was in the scene alone, that it was grisly and gruesome.

It kinda was a crazy perfect ending.

[kwok_talk]

Fred's Wife: I feel like I went on a date with Mike Tyson. My ass and my head hurt.

That is hilarious!

[fred]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that was a stinking shit pile of an ending. Not the worst ending to a show ever (that honor belongs to Home Improvement), but it's down there near the bottom, definitely.

I'm trying to remember exactly how Roseanne ended but if I remember right....

they ended it by saying that Dan died a few years ago and the last couple of seasons where part of a book written by Roseanne.

that's pretty shitty

this feels worse today but it probably won't next week
at least it wasn't that bad

[jgg0610]

Fred's Living Room 10:04 PM
TV goes black

Fred: What the? Oh my god. (laughs). I feel like I have a live lobster in my ass
Fred's Wife: I feel like I went on a date with Mike Tyson. My ass and my head hurt.
Luckily, I wasn't drinking when I read this.

[jo-relrollins]

Now that i thought bout it. It was the best ending ever. I mean think about. Now we all have to assume what happened. We pretty much are going to have to make the ending up ourselves. And on top of that we'll here about this one for awhile. It even got ppl who hadn't watched the show in awhile to tune in. So in many ways,it was the perfect ending.

[fred]

It kinda was a crazy perfect ending.

I disagree. I get the attraction to it - the symmetry with real life and blah, blah, blah - that's not why I watch the Sopranos though. I watch it to see Tony knock people's teeth out and kill people.

[fred]

Now that i thought bout it. It was the best ending ever. I mean think about. Now we all have to assume what happened. We pretty much are going to have to make the ending up ourselves. And on top of that we'll here about this one for awhile. It even got ppl who hadn't watched the show in awhile to tune in. So in many ways,it was the perfect ending.

I feel like it didn't end. I feel like uGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH

[jgg0610]

I'm trying to remember exactly how Roseanne ended but if I remember right....

they ended it by saying that Dan died a few years ago and the last couple of seasons where part of a book written by Roseanne.

that's pretty shitty

this feels worse today but it probably won't next week
at least it wasn't that bad
Never watched an episode of Roseanne in my life. She gets on every nerve I have left. I'm no person, but what little bits I've seen of her show felt like it was designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. I could be wrong though as I've never seen an entire episode.

Back on topic, where is Richards to defend this pile?

[fred]

rICHARDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSS

[jgg0610]

I disagree. I get the attraction to it - the symmetry with real life and blah, blah, blah - that's not why I watch the Sopranos though. I watch it to see Tony knock people's teeth out and kill people.
Exactly, you watch Sopranos for the violence and for the scenes shot in the Bing.

[fred]

Exactly. It's not on ****ing IFC. Brutal, violent, money, titties, yaaaaaaay

[jgg0610]

Exactly. It's not on ****ing IFC. Brutal, violent, money, titties, yaaaaaaay
Again, EXACTLY. If we want artsy, I know where the IFC channel is.

[jo-relrollins]

I notice what we all are saying. But i also notice they got what they want. I mean this page went from 2 to 5 pages in like 30 minutes.

[conorkilpatrick]

I disagree. I get the attraction to it - the symmetry with real life and blah, blah, blah - that's not why I watch the Sopranos though. I watch it to see Tony knock people's teeth out and kill people.

That's not what the show was about, though. It was about family.

[conorkilpatrick]

rICHARDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSS

He's driving home, Don't worry, he said he'd check in.

[conorkilpatrick]

Again, EXACTLY. If we want artsy, I know where the IFC channel is.

I think many people have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this show was about.

[jgg0610]

I notice what we all are saying. But i also notice they got what they want. I mean this page went from 2 to 5 pages in like 30 minutes.
Dude if this is showing up on your screen as five pages, you've got to go and set your view to 40 posts per page. Fewer screen loads make it a whole lot better and faster.

[fred]

That's not what the show was about, though. It was about family.

We should put up a poll. I'm interested in why people watched it. I will be shocked if more than 10% of people say that it was for "family", unless they do it now to spite me.

[jgg0610]

I think many people have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this show was about.
No, I think I got it. It was about a non-traditional family just like pretty every other big HBO show. Having said that, this ending was not good. It was definitely not satisfying. This was the TV equiavalent of the fade out at the end of a studio recorded song. It doesn't really ever end, it just fades away.

[conorkilpatrick]

We should put up a poll. I'm interested in why people watched it. I will be shocked if more than 10% of people say that it was for "family", unless they do it now to spite me.

It's irrelevant as to why people chose to watch it. The intention of the artists is only what matters.

Or, to put it another way, just because I watch hockey for the fighting does not mean that the point of the game is the punching.

[conorkilpatrick]

No, I think I got it. It was about a non-traditional family just like pretty every other big HBO show.

Then I'm baffled by some of your previous posts.

[acomicbookgirl]

If I watch it later tonight(Braves game was on), will I be ruining it for myself.. I'd just be watching it so i'm not out of the loop at work tomorrow..

[jgg0610]

It's irrelevant as to why people chose to watch it. The intention of the artists is only what matters.

Or, to put it another way, just because I watch hockey for the fighting does not mean that the point of the game is the punching.
See I would take the exact opposite from it. I think it's up to the viewer to take what they want from it. Just because it's not necessarily what the artist intended has absolutely nothing to do with the artists and everything to do with the viewer.

[conorkilpatrick]

If I watch it later tonight(Braves game was on), will I be ruining it for myself.. I'd just be watching it so i'm not out of the loop at work tomorrow..

What do you mean? Have you not seen any episodes before?

[acomicbookgirl]

What do you mean? Have you not seen any episodes before?

I've seen bits and pieces but didn't exactly follow it. If I watch tonight's episode will i be confused or am I better off watching it from the beginning?

[jgg0610]

Then I'm baffled by some of your previous posts.
What I'm saying is that I watch it for the family drama aspect of it, but the other window dressing parts are what make it fun.

This felt like an artist wet dream and it didn't pay off for anyone but the artist.

[fred]

It's irrelevant as to why people chose to watch it. The intention of the artists is only what matters.

Or, to put it another way, just because I watch hockey for the fighting does not mean that the point of the game is the punching.

few things

A) If it was a show about family, how is it then that entire seasons could go by with only cursory checks into the lives of AJ and Meadow? How could entire episodes go by with only call-ins from Carm?

B) If its only the intentions of the artists that matter, why do you think they chose to focus on all of the reasons that people watched it until the end?

C) If it was a work of art, why come back for another season? The last finale left them in a similar place to this one? Did they need to bring more closure? No, they needed to bring themselves more money. I'm fine with that, but don't try to sell me the art thing after I've seen this.

[fred]

I've seen bits and pieces but didn't exactly follow it. If I watch tonight's episode will i be confused or am I better off watching it from the beginning?

you're better off not watching anything after Tony gets shot last season.

[conorkilpatrick]

See I would take the exact opposite from it. I think it's up to the viewer to take what they want from it. Just because it's not necessarily what the artist intended has absolutely nothing to do with the artists and everything to do with the viewer.

What I'm saying is, it's just as wrong for people to claim that The Sopranos was about the violence and the Badda Bing as I would be to say that hockey is about people punching each other.

Of course everything is open to interpretation and as a viewer you are allowed to think whatever you want, but for me the most important thing is what the artists intends.

PS - Ron is going to be about two hours away from posting.

[conorkilpatrick]

Was the cat a reincarnated Adriana?

[fred]

Was the cat a reincarnated Adriana?

now you're just trying to aggravate me aren't you? :)

[conorkilpatrick]

C) If it was a work of art, why come back for another season? The last finale left them in a similar place to this one? Did they need to bring more closure? No, they needed to bring themselves more money. I'm fine with that, but don't try to sell me the art thing after I've seen this.

We're probably at an impasse if you don't think this show was high art. :)

And yes, artists need to make money.

[jgg0610]

What I'm saying is, it's just as wrong for people to claim that The Sopranos was about the violence and the Badda Bing as I would be to say that hockey is about people punching each other.

Of course everything is open to interpretation and as a viewer you are allowed to think whatever you want, but for me the most important thing is what the artists intends.

PS - Ron is going to be about two hours away from posting.
I get what you're saying, but when I'm watching any show, I'm not thinking about what the artist intended. I'm thinking about whether or not I'm enjoying it. That's probably the difference between someone who can create something from nothing (you) and someone who couldn't create something from nothing if he tried (me).

Lastly, how far is Connecticut if it's going to take him that long? I'm working under that Southern generality that everything in the Northeast is close together.

[conorkilpatrick]

now you're just trying to aggravate me aren't you? :)

It seemed like it to me!

On another note, there was a brief moment in the episode when Paulie was waiting for Tony to call him back on another phone and Paulie looked over at the stripper stage (when I guess he saw the Virgin Mary?) and I thought that he was considering getting up on stage and dancing with the pole.

By the way, this episode was very oddly directed and edited in parts.

[jgg0610]

Was the cat a reincarnated Adriana?
Where's that exploding head picture when I need it?

[jgg0610]

It seemed like it to me!

On another note, there was a brief moment in the episode when Paulie was waiting for Tony to call him back on another phone and Paulie looked over at the stripper stage (when I guess he saw the Virgin Mary?) and I thought that he was considering getting up on stage and dancing with the pole.

By the way, this episode was very oddly directed and edited in parts.
Now the thing with Paulie, I caught.

[conorkilpatrick]

Lastly, how far is Connecticut if it's going to take him that long? I'm working under that Southern generality that everything in the Northeast is close together.

He's only an hour away from home, but you have to chose between him posting right away and having a new episode of the video show on Wednesday... ;)

[conorkilpatrick]

Now the thing with Paulie, I caught.

"Oh, man - he's gonna get up there and dance!"

[fred]

We're probably at an impasse if you don't think this show was high art. :)

And yes, artists need to make money.

I do think that the show has artistic merit. I didn't mean to imply that it didn't. And I get that artists need to make money. I have a problem when someone says that it's all about the art when the art would've been better served by being left alone rather than going for one more cash in.

I'm let down by this ending. It's a whimper rather than a bang.

[jgg0610]

He's only an hour away from home, but you have to chose between him posting right away and having a new episode of the video show on Wednesday... ;)
No sweat. I'll take the video show on Wednesday anyday. I'm heading out for the night soon anyway. 5:15 isn't that far away.

[fred]

By the way, this episode was very oddly directed and edited in parts.

there were far too many jump cuts and scenes that lasted less than 10 seconds

[jaflanagan]

The show was both art and commerce. I believe that.

The cat was either supposed to be Adrianna or Chris. I can't tell which.

All I know is that Pault got 3(!) great classic Pauly moments. Fly unzipped at the dinner table, getting mad at the cat with the broom thing, and him outside with the sun reflector.

Also, there was a classic AJ scene after his car burned, just like when he was 12 on the show.

Finally, the definition of "family" is more encompassing than just the people named Soprano. In fact, the marketing plan at one time was "Family: Redefined."

To me, the show was about the inescapable circuitous way of life. You KNOW AJ is going to end up doing what his father did. Junior was so happy when he heard he was a wiseguy. Nothing will change. Things will go on, as they always have. There's nothing these people can do to get out of it.

I gotta say, like it or not, the balls on David Chase were gigantic right there. He just ****ed with everyone. Cheers, sir.

[jgg0610]

there were far too many jump cuts and scenes that lasted less than 10 seconds
Yeah, when Tony walked into the restaurant at the end of the show, the way it was edited, it appeared that he saw himself already sitting at the table. My first thought was great, here we go on another one of those trippy dream episodes.

[conorkilpatrick]

there were far too many jump cuts and scenes that lasted less than 10 seconds

Agreed. Unless we had had a five second Paulie pole dance. That would have made up for the weird editing strategy.

[jgg0610]

The show was both art and commerce. I believe that.

The cat was either supposed to be Adrianna or Chris. I can't tell which.

All I know is that Pault got 3(!) great classic Pauly moments. Fly unzipped at the dinner table, getting mad at the cat with the broom thing, and him outside with the sun reflector.

Also, there was a classic AJ scene after his car burned, just like when he was 12 on the show.

Finally, the definition of "family" is more encompassing than just the people named Soprano. In fact, the marketing plan at one time was "Family: Redefined."

To me, the show was about the inescapable circuitous way of life. You KNOW AJ is going to end up doing what his father did. Junior was so happy when he heard he was a wiseguy. Nothing will change. Things will go on, as they always have. There's nothing these people can do to get out of it.

I gotta say, like it or not, the balls on David Chase were gigantic right there. He just ****ed with everyone. Cheers, sir.
Yeah, but to **** with people just because you can and you've got a captive audience, isn't that almost like being a bully?

[fred]

Agreed. Unless we had had a five second Paulie pole dance. That would have made up for the weird editing strategy.

I'll give you that. Actually, thinking of that makes me happy (not like that) so that's how I'm pretending that it ended now. Thanks Conor.

[jaflanagan]

Yeah, but to **** with people just because you can and you've got a captive audience, isn't that almost like being a bully?

It's his story to tell it like he wants, and isn't that appropriate when telling the story of Tony Soprano? In that respect, I can think of nothing more appropriate.

[jgg0610]

It's his story to tell it like he wants, and isn't that appropriate when telling the story of Tony Soprano? In that respect, I can think of nothing more appropriate.
Touche

(10)

[conorkilpatrick]

As a native New Yorker, the Little Italy scenes were sad.

[jimski]

I'm 15 minutes into the episode, and thus haven't read this thread yet, but I felt compelled to say now that one thing I'll definitely "funny/sad" miss is Tony's f***ing annoying ringtone, which I believe has remained unchanged throughout the series.

[ronxo]

Ok ok - I'm here - geez - doing 90 MPH up 95 to get home to post on a message board...anyway...

Conor pretty much summed up alot of the salient points, but I'll break it down in bullets, cause that's how I roll:

- I loved it. LOVED IT. LOVED IT LOVED IT LOVED IT.
- I do indeed feel vindicated, everyone was convinced Tony was gonna get hit, that Paulie was gonna flip, that Tony was gonna turn evidence and I think they totally played up slightly to all the conspiracy theories throughout the episode if you look closely - and then dealt with them accordingly.
- Conor made the point about the show being about Family, and it is, but it's also about life. Specifically this type of life that Tony has chosen. I said at the beginning of the season that this would end quietly, anticlimatically, because that's how life is. I'm honestly surprised they gave us the action towards the end that we did get.
- While I did think it was going to end in the backyard with the ducks (and when he was outside raking, I thought that was it..) the ending was SO Much better than I could have imagined. How tense was that? You thought that guy in the member's only jacket was going to whack him, and every time the door opened and Tony looked up - you finally felt the weight of what that life had put on him.
- Basically, the story of this show is that there is no story - and there are a million little stories - that's life - drama happens and stuff flares up and then it calms down and goes back to normal, and then you wake up and do it all over again. The only difference is with Tony and everyone else, there's guns and violence and cursing and a lot of pasta. This could be my life, but substitute guns for comics and violence for computers - keep the cursing and the pasta though.

Yes I think the majority of the world will hate this ending and I dread going to work tomorrow to hear about it. But me? loved it.

PS 1 - "Don't Stop Believing?" Genius
PS 2 - Was the cat Adriana or Christopher? whatever - I can leave that one alone :)

Ok - Back to editing

[ronxo]

I'm 15 minutes into the episode, and thus haven't read this thread yet, but I felt compelled to say now that one thing I'll definitely "funny/sad" miss is Tony's f***ing annoying ringtone, which I believe has remained unchanged throughout the series.

Fantastic observation and you are correct, I believe.

Also - my favorite aspect of the show, as I shared with Josh and Lindsay tonite: NO ONE angrily smokes likes Johnny Sack did - I'm gonna miss that.

[jo-relrollins]

Ok ok - I'm here - geez - doing 90 MPH up 95 to get home to post on a message board...anyway...

Conor pretty much summed up alot of the salient points, but I'll break it down in bullets, cause that's how I roll:

- I loved it. LOVED IT. LOVED IT LOVED IT LOVED IT.
- I do indeed feel vindicated, everyone was convinced Tony was gonna get hit, that Paulie was gonna flip, that Tony was gonna turn evidence and I think they totally played up slightly to all the conspiracy theories throughout the episode if you look closely - and then dealt with them accordingly.
- Conor made the point about the show being about Family, and it is, but it's also about life. Specifically this type of life that Tony has chosen. I said at the beginning of the season that this would end quietly, anticlimatically, because that's how life is. I'm honestly surprised they gave us the action towards the end that we did get.
- While I did think it was going to end in the backyard with the ducks (and when he was outside raking, I thought that was it..) the ending was SO Much better than I could have imagined. How tense was that? You thought that guy in the member's only jacket was going to whack him, and every time the door opened and Tony looked up - you finally felt the weight of what that life had put on him.
- Basically, the story of this show is that there is no story - and there are a million little stories - that's life - drama happens and stuff flares up and then it calms down and goes back to normal, and then you wake up and do it all over again. The only difference is with Tony and everyone else, there's guns and violence and cursing and a lot of pasta. This could be my life, but substitute guns for comics and violence for computers - keep the cursing and the pasta though.

Yes I think the majority of the world will hate this ending and I dread going to work tomorrow to hear about it. But me? loved it.

PS 1 - "Don't Stop Believing?" Genius
PS 2 - Was the cat Adriana or Christopher? whatever - I can leave that one alone :)

Ok - Back to editing

Oh my god ur so right, i kept clinching thinking either the members only guy or the group of guys would shoot tony. I'm ok with the ending,didn't love it, but ok with it. The ending left me to make my own assumptions.

2. I think it was Adriana, 1. Because of the picture thing. 2. Because it would go off if it was implied that it need to move from the picture.

[benjaminsimpson]

I'm oddly satisfied by it. I've been watching since season 1, watching Sopranos on Sunday nights with my dad has been a constant since then (except when I was away at school). I liked how we got good send-offs for the main characters (except Sil), but like life, there's no real ending. Sopranos was very much a show where we got to peek into the lives of Tony, his family, and his crew, and just because we're not watching anymore doesn't mean their "lives" are over. I don't know why people were expecting a big explosion of a finale, none of the season finales have been like that, it's been quite character moments. I feel like the abrupt end served two purposes; to show that we really were only along for part of the ride, and that the characters were going to go on, live lives, marry, and die at some other points. It was great to see what a spoiled, lazy kid A.J. is deep down.

I was surprised not to see Melfi at all this episode, but her scenes had been so unbearable at times the last few seasons that I didn't actually miss her.

[jimski]

Now, definitively, I'll never know "What Happens." I'll have to imagine it for myself... and that is awesome.

[mjm05k]

A friend emailed me this just now:

The guy at the bar is credited as Nikki Leotardo. The same actor played him in the first part of season 6 during a brief sit down concerning the future of Vito. That wasn't that long ago. Apparently, he is the nephew of Phil.
Phil's brother Nikki Senior was killed in 1976 in a car accident.

The trucker was the brother of the guy who was robbed by Christopher in Season 2. Remember the DVD players? The trucker had to identify the body.

The boy scouts were in the train store.

The black guys at the end were the ones who tried to kill Tony and only clipped him in the ear (season 2 or 3).

The more I think about it, the more brilliant Chase is.

[conorkilpatrick]

One thing that was just speculated on in the office here is that what we might have seen at the very end was that Nikki Leotardo did in fact whack Tony and what we saw was the hit from Tony's persepective, i.e. he never saw it coming (just like he told Bobby early in the season) and life just suddenly went to black for him.

[fred]

that may even make me happier than Paulie in clear heels on the pole

[jurassicalien]

I ate this last episode up like a big bowl of fries.

I, like Ron, LOVED IT.

I saw the ending as being ambiguous to let the audiance make their own ending. You can believe the "members only" guy came out of the bathroom and killed the whole family. Or that Tony went to court and won, or life went on, whatever. Which ever ending the particular audiance member wanted, they could make up in there head. And I love Chase for (in a way) giving me that option.

Also when the show ended, I thought to myself "This is going to be the Seinfeld finale all over again.

[conorkilpatrick]

Also when the show ended, I thought to myself "This is going to be the Seinfeld finale all over again.

And it totally has been.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06112007/img/front061107.jpghttp://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/06/11/alg_frontback.jpg

[ronxo]

I think the interesting thing with the ending is it almost can be what you make of it - did he get whacked? sure. did he not and life goes on? sure.

regardless - brilliance.

[benjaminsimpson]

One thing that was just speculated on in the office here is that what we might have seen at the very end was that Nikki Leotardo did in fact whack Tony and what we saw was the hit from Tony's persepective, i.e. he never saw it coming (just like he told Bobby early in the season) and life just suddenly went to black for him.
The problem I have with that theory is that the last shot is of Tony's face. I can see it as possible, but I would think if that were the case, we'd have seen a shot of Meadow walking into the diner.

[conorkilpatrick]

The problem I have with that theory is that the last shot is of Tony's face. I can see it as possible, but I would think if that were the case, we'd have seen a shot of Meadow walking into the diner.

Well, not literally from his point of view. I don't mean we were seeing it through his eyes.

[farco]

I'm suprised no one has mentioned all the "bells" at the end of the episode. Everytime someone walked in, the bell on the door rang and the last sound we hear... is a bell. I think he died. The bell has tolled for Tony.

[kwok_talk]

Welcome Farco

I just watched the re-run again. I think the ending frustrated me even more the 2nd time.

[jimski]

Yeah, I'll bet they were: (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/T/TV_SOPRANOS_THAT_SONG?SITE=MOJOP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

NEW YORK (AP) -- The songwriters of Journey's power ballad "Don't Stop Believin'" were "jumping up and down" when they learned a few weeks ago it had been licensed for use in the final episode of "The Sopranos."

But even they couldn't believe how it would prove so integral to one of the most memorable final scenes in television history.

"It was better than anything I would have ever hoped for," said Jonathan Cain, Journey keyboard player, who watched at home with his wife and family.

[conorkilpatrick]

Yeah, I'll bet they were: (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/T/TV_SOPRANOS_THAT_SONG?SITE=MOJOP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

Playing that song was one of my favorite things about the final scene. When Tony was flipping through the juke box and the camera lingered on Tony Bennett you figured he was going to play that, but then booming out of the speakers comes the singular voice of Steve Perry and it just seemed so perfect.

[kwok_talk]

So a few days before the final episode, I snooped around Wikipedia and they had a full synopsis of the final episode, which had an entirely different ending. I didn’t expect that to be the real ending at all, but did anyone else catch that? I thought it was kind of funny.

[jgg0610]

The more I think about this ending the more frustrated I become. This wasn't a real ending it just stopped. Compare that to the last series finale of an HBO show that I watched which was Six Feet Under and it really pales in comparison. That was one of the most brilliant endings of all time. This just felt like Chase didn't know how he wanted to end the show so it just stopped.

[conorkilpatrick]

This just felt like Chase didn't know how he wanted to end the show so it just stopped.

I think Chase knew exactly how he wanted to end the show. The ending fit in with the overall ethos of the project.

[jgg0610]

I think Chase knew exactly how he wanted to end the show. The ending fit in with the overall ethos of the project.
See I don't get that. This show has been pretty much all action since the start with the exception of those ill advised dream episodes and this was very much going out with a whimper. Also, I'm not the type that likes to leave things ambigious. I like it when things are more definitive and this definitely was not.

[horatio616]

I don't watch Sopranos but I've always wanted to and I suspect I will at some point, even though the ending was spoiled by sports talk radio. I'd heard that there has been talk of movie sequels so I never thought for a second that Tony would die.

As far as final endings go, was it as bad as the final Seinfeld episode?

This disappointment in the finale makes me wonder if I want to sit through all the seasons only to be let down at the end.

[jgg0610]

I don't watch Sopranos but I've always wanted to and I suspect I will at some point, even though the ending was spoiled by sports talk radio. I'd heard that there has been talk of movie sequels so I never thought for a second that Tony would die.

As far as final endings go, was it as bad as the final Seinfeld episode?

This disappointment in the finale makes me wonder if I want to sit through all the seasons only to be let down at the end.
I didn't think the Seinfeld ending was bad. It was very much in keeping with the spirit of the show. He'd always said that it was a show about nothing and the ending echoed that.

As to your other question, it's definitely worth watching the whole series.

[jgg0610]

As a native New Yorker, the Little Italy scenes were sad.
As someone who has never been to NY why did they make you sad?

[conorkilpatrick]

Also, I'm not the type that likes to leave things ambigious. I like it when things are more definitive and this definitely was not.

Sure, but I think David Chase feels differently. I think he knew exactly what he was doing.

[conorkilpatrick]

I didn't think the Seinfeld ending was bad. It was very much in keeping with the spirit of the show. He'd always said that it was a show about nothing and the ending echoed that.

Hey! Something we can agree on! :)

[conorkilpatrick]

As someone who has never been to NY why did they make you sad?

I think the line from the show was something like "Little Italy once comprised 40 square blocks but all that remains is one block of shops and restaurants."

As a kid Little Italy was always this almost magical place my family would visit once or twice a year to have really amazing pasta. There was a lot of romance associated with it. It's very much old New York. And now it's almost entirely gone, pushed out by rent increases and Chinatown (which is basically the entire southern tip of Manhattan at this point).

[jgg0610]

Hey! Something we can agree on! :)
Not to belabor the point, but this was a completely different type of show vs. Sopranos. It's stated purpose up front was to be about nothing and it stuck to that through 11 seasons. While Sopranos on the other hand was always about a look at the life of a crime family, both blood and otherwise. This ending just felt out of character with the definitiveness of the rest of the show.

Did you watch the Six Feet Under series Finale? How would you compare the Sopranos to this one which was very defnitive in nature.

[jgg0610]

I think the line from the show was something like "Little Italy once comprised 40 square blocks but all that remains is one block of shops and restaurants."

As a kid Little Italy was always this almost magical place my family would visit once or twice a year to have really amazing pasta. There was a lot of romance associated with it. It's very much old New York. And now it's almost entirely gone, pushed out by rent increases and Chinatown (which is basically the entire southern tip of Manhattan at this point).
I wondered if that's where you were going with your comment but I wasn't sure. Now I'm sad that I'll never get to see anything like that.

What can you tell me about the area around 31st and 5th? This is where I'll be staying next week while I'm in town.

[horatio616]

I didn't think the Seinfeld ending was bad.

Well the problem is that it wasn't good.

[conorkilpatrick]

'Sopranos' creator's last word: End speaks for itself
Tuesday, June 12, 2007
What do you do when your TV world ends? You go to dinner, then keep quiet.

"Sopranos" creator David Chase took his wife out for dinner Sunday night in France, where he fled to avoid "all the Monday morning quarterbacking" about the show's finale. After this exclusive interview (agreed to before the season began), he intends to let the work -- especially the controversial final scene -- speak for itself.

"I have no interest in explaining, defending, reinterpreting, or adding to what is there," he says of the final scene.

"No one was trying to be audacious, honest to God," he adds. "We did what we thought we had to do. No one was trying to blow people's minds or thinking, 'Wow, this'll (tick) them off.'

"People get the impression that you're trying to (mess) with them, and it's not true. You're trying to entertain them."

In that final scene, mob boss Tony Soprano waited at a Bloomfield ice cream parlor for his family to arrive, one by one. What was a seemingly benign family outing was shot and cut as the preamble to a tragedy, with Tony suspiciously eyeing one patron after another, the camera dwelling a little too long on Meadow's parallel parking and a walk by a man in a Members Only jacket to the men's room. Just as the tension ratcheted up to unbearable levels, the series cut to black in mid-scene (and mid-song), with no resolution.

"Anybody who wants to watch it, it's all there," says Chase, 61, who based the series in general (and Tony's relationship with mother Livia specifically) on his North Caldwell childhood.

Some fans have assumed the ambiguous ending was Chase setting up the oft-rumored "Sopranos" movie.

"I don't think about (a movie) much," he says. "I never say never. An idea could pop into my head where I would go, 'Wow, that would make a great movie,' but I doubt it.

"I'm not being coy," he adds. "If something appeared that really made a good 'Sopranos' movie and you could invest in it and everybody else wanted to do it, I would do it. But I think we've kind of said it and done it."

Another problem: Over the last season, Chase killed so many key characters. He's toyed with the idea of "going back to a day in 2006 that you didn't see, but then (Tony's children) would be older than they were then and you would know that Tony doesn't get killed. It's got problems."

(Earlier in the interview, Chase noted that often his favorite part of the show was the characters telling stories about the good ol' days of Tony's parents. Just a guess, but if Chase ever does a movie spinoff, it'll be set in Newark in the '60s.)

Since Chase is declining to offer his interpretation of the final scene, let me present two more of my own, which came to me with a good night's sleep and a lot of helpful reader e-mails:



Theory No. 1 (and the one I prefer): Chase is using the final scene to place the viewer into Tony's mind-set. This is how he sees the world: Every open door, every person walking past him could be coming to kill him or arrest him or otherwise harm him or his family. This is his life, even though the paranoia's rarely justified. We end without knowing what Tony's looking at because he never knows what's coming next.


Theory No. 2: In the scene on the boat in "Soprano Home Movies," repeated again last week, Bobby Bacala suggested that when you get killed, you don't see it coming. Certainly, our man in the Members Only jacket could have gone to the men's room to prepare for killing Tony (shades of the first "Godfather"), and the picture and sound cut out because Tony's life just did. (Or because we, as viewers, got whacked from our life with the show.)


Meanwhile, remember that 21-month hiatus between Seasons Five and Six? That was Chase thinking up the ending. HBO's then-chairman Chris Albrecht came to him after Season Five and suggested thinking up a conclusion to the series; Chase agreed, on the condition he get "a long break" to decide on an ending.

Originally, that ending was supposed to occur last year, but midway through production, the number of episodes was increased, and Chase stretched out certain plot elements while saving the major climaxes for this final batch of nine.

"If this had been one season, the Vito storyline would not have been so important," he says.

Much of this final season featured Tony bullying, killing or otherwise alienating the members of his inner circle. After all those years of viewing him as "the sympathetic mob boss," were we, like his therapist Dr. Melfi, supposed to finally wake up and smell the sociopath?

"From my perspective, there's nothing different about Tony in this season than there ever was," Chase says. "To me, that's Tony."

Chase has had an ambivalent relationship with his fans, particularly the bloodthirsty whacking crowd who seemed to tune in only for the chance to see someone's head get blown off (or run over by an SUV). So was he reluctant to fill last week's penultimate episode, "The Blue Comet," with so many vivid death scenes?

"I'm the number one fan of gangster movies," he says. "Martin Scorsese has no greater devotee than me. Like everyone else, I get off partly on the betrayals, the retributions, the swift justice. But what you come to realize when you do a series is, you could be killing straw men all day long. Those murders only have any meaning when you've invested story in them. Otherwise, you might as well watch 'Cleaver.'"

One detail about the final scene he'll discuss, however tentatively: the selection of Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'" as the song on the jukebox.

"It didn't take much time at all to pick it, but there was a lot of conversation after the fact. I did something I'd never done before: In the location van, with the crew, I was saying, 'What do you think?' When I said, 'Don't Stop Believin',' people went, 'What? Oh my God!'

"I said, 'I know, I know, just give a listen,' and little by little, people started coming around."

Whether viewers will have a similar time-delayed reaction to the finale as a whole, Chase doesn't know. ("I hear some people were very angry and others were not, which is what I expected.") He's relaxing in France, then he'll try to make movies.

"It's been the greatest career experience of my life," he says. "There's nothing more in TV that I could say or would want to say."

Here's Chase on some other points about the finale and the season:

After all the speculation Agent Harris might turn Tony, instead we saw Harris had turned, passing along info on Phil's whereabouts and cheering, "We're going to win this thing!" when learning of Phil's demise.

"This is based on an actual case of an FBI agent who got a little bit too partisan and excited during the Colombo wars of the'70s," Chase says of the story of Lindley DeVecchio, who supplied Harris' line.

Speaking of Harris, Chase had no problem with never revealing what -- if anything -- terror suspects Muhammed and Ahmed were up to.

"This, to me, feels very real," he says. "For the majority of these suspects, it's very hard for anybody to know what these people are doing. I don't even think Harris might know where they are. That was sort of the point of it: Who knows if they are terrorists or if they're innocent pistachio salesmen? That's the fear that we are living with now."

Also, the story -- repeated by me, unfortunately -- that Fox, when "The Sopranos" was in development there, wanted Chase to have Tony help the FBI catch terrorists isn't true.

"What I said was, if I had done it at Fox, Tony would have been a gangster by day and helping the FBI by night, but we weren't there long enough for anyone to make that suggestion."

I spent the last couple of weeks wrapping my brain around a theory supplied by reader Sam Lorber (and his daughter, Emily) that the nine episodes of this season were each supposed to represent one of the nine circles of Hell from Dante's "The Divine Comedy."

Told of the theory, Chase laughed and said, "No."

Since Butchie was introduced as a guy who was pushing Phil to take out Tony, why did he turn on Phil and negotiate peace with Tony?

"I think Butch was an intelligent guy; he began to see that there was no need for it, that Phil's feelings were all caught up in what was esentially a convoluted personal grudge."

Not from Chase, but I feel the need to debunk the e-mail that's making the rounds about all the Holsten's patrons being characters from earlier in the series. The actor playing Members Only guy had never been on the show; Tony killed at least one, if not both, of his carjackers; and there are about 17 other things wrong with this popular but incorrect theory.


Alan Sepinwall may be reached at asepinwall@starledger.com, or by writing him at 1 Star-Ledger Plaza, Newark, N.J. 07102-1200. You may also visit the Sopranos blog at blog.nj.com/alltv/

[jgg0610]

I think it's pretty telling that Chase chose to run off to France instead of dealing with the backlash he knew was coming. If you're going to do what you know is a controversial ending, you at least ought to have the intestinal fortitude to stick around and answer questions. Artistic vision is all well and good, but without the fans, he wouldn't have a job.

[alexg]

What can you tell me about the area around 31st and 5th? This is where I'll be staying next week while I'm in town.

Not much goin on in that part of town, although you can walk to Hanley's. Since you are staying in that area, make sure you hit one of the Korean table Barbeque restaurants on 32nd st. There's one called Kang Suh that's pretty good.
If you head a bit east and south of where ou are staying you'll hit Murray Hill which has pleny of bars...but there's a definite frat vibe to a lot of them. That's neither here nor there, but just be aware. The Abbey Tavern is near there too...that's a pretty old joint, but I've never thought it was so special.

[jgg0610]

Not much goin on in that part of town, although you can walk to Hanley's. Since you are staying in that area, make sure you hit one of the Korean table Barbeque restaurants on 32nd st. There's one called Kang Suh that's pretty good.
If you head a bit east and south of where ou are staying you'll hit Murray Hill which has pleny of bars...but there's a definite frat vibe to a lot of them. That's neither here nor there, but just be aware. The Abbey Tavern is near there too...that's a pretty old joint, but I've never thought it was so special.
Thanks for the info. I'll keep that in mind about the local area. We were hoping to stup up closer to Central Park, but the places we could afford didn't have any rooms available.

[alexg]

Yeah, the whole city is expensive--don't worry, you can walk/subway pretty much anywhere you need to go.

[conorkilpatrick]

Yeah, the whole city is expensive--don't worry, you can walk/subway pretty much anywhere you need to go.

Not for me! I'm super rich!

Ha ha.

I'm not.

It's expensive.

[jgg0610]

Yeah, it is an expensive place to visit, but come on Conor, you've been to London. That is one expensive city to visit. It's outrageous how much meals cost there.

[conorkilpatrick]

Yeah, it is an expensive place to visit, but come on Conor, you've been to London. That is one expensive city to visit. It's outrageous how much meals cost there.

New York actually gets a bad rap, you can find cheap stuff to do and eat.

London... woof. Especially with the exchange rate. Ouch. Luckily I usually only go there for work and can expense just about everything. Possibly that's why it's been over a year since I was last sent there.

[jgg0610]

New York actually gets a bad rap, you can find cheap stuff to do and eat.

London... woof. Especially with the exchange rate. Ouch. Luckily I usually only go there for work and can expense just about everything. Possibly that's why it's been over a year since I was last sent there.
I hear ya. The only time I've been there was for vacation and damn is it painful to pay that for food. Even McDonald's s outrageous. I'm not too worried about getting around in New York. I figure if I can handle the subway system in Europe where I don't speak the language most of the time, I should be okay here where at least the language isn't a barrier. And if not, there's always Josh to ask for help.

[jimski]

Ugh, Six Feet Under didn't seem like it was planned out ten minutes in advance; I used to tape it, but it started to feel like homework.

As for the Sopranos ending, it seemed to me that the whole show was about open-endedness and ambiguity and threads that never get picked up again, just like life. Any time something happened, you never knew if it was a plotline or something that would never come up again. Sometimes, it looks like Paulie's gonna sleep with the fishes; sometimes, the Russian runs off into the woods and you never see him again. But you might! And the result is unbearable tension every time someone parallel parks.

[jgg0610]

And the result is unbearable tension every time someone parallel parks.

Not a sentence you utter everyday.

[jimski]

One thing that stuck with me was how much the FBI agent's life had become like a funhouse mirror version of Tony's. The late night clandestine meetings; the angry, neglected spouse on the phone; the affairs and coded phone calls. Good stuff.

[jgg0610]

One thing that stuck with me was how much the FBI agent's life had become like a funhouse mirror version of Tony's. The late night clandestine meetings; the angry, neglected spouse on the phone; the affairs and coded phone calls. Good stuff.
Now, that was good. Even him letting out with the shout of "We're going to win this thing" when he found out Phil had been killed.

[jaflanagan]

I think it's pretty telling that Chase chose to run off to France instead of dealing with the backlash he knew was coming. If you're going to do what you know is a controversial ending, you at least ought to have the intestinal fortitude to stick around and answer questions. Artistic vision is all well and good, but without the fans, he wouldn't have a job.

Seriously?

He doesn't owe anyone anything. He made the show. People can like or not like it. People liked it. He doesn't owe anybody anything. Neither did Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld, or the Six Feet Under crew, or anyone else who made hundreds of TV series. If I'd worked on my life's masterpiece for ten years, you bet your ass I'd take a vacation.

[conorkilpatrick]

Ratings: Near-historic 'Sopranos' coup

By DAVID BAUDER, AP Television Writer Tue Jun 12, 6:07 PM ET

NEW YORK - The 11.9 million viewers who watched "The Sopranos" finale brought HBO to the edge of a historic feat: a show on a pay cable network available in about 30 million homes was more popular last week than all but one show on the far larger world of broadcast television.

Only the premiere of NBC's "America's Got Talent," with 13 million viewers, did better, Nielsen Media Research said.

ABC, CBS and Fox are all available in 111 million homes for no extra charge, and nothing they aired last week did better than "The Sopranos."

It was the fourth most-watched episode of "The Sopranos" since the epic mob drama premiered on HBO in 1999, and best since the 2004 season premiere. With on-demand services, multiple showings on HBO this week and DVR recording, it's almost impossible to draw a bead on how many people will actually watch the finale.

[jimski]

So a few days before the final episode, I snooped around Wikipedia and they had a full synopsis of the final episode, which had an entirely different ending.

I wish I'd seen that. What did it say?

[fred]

you can actually look at previous versions of a wiki page on the site

[paper]

Can you look at future versions?

[fred]

Can you look at future versions?

only if your name is marty mcfly or doc

[conorkilpatrick]

only if your name is marty mcfly or doc

Or Desmond.

[fred]

but does desmond have his own machine? huh? huh?

ok, you've got a point too

rakkafrakka

[six-gun]

After building tension for six seasons over 8½ years, The Sopranos, one of America's most critically acclaimed television shows, ended with a black screen. There was no clear answer to the big question – would mob boss Tony Soprano survive or get whacked?

"I have no interest in explaining, defending, reinterpreting, or adding to what is there," Chase told New Jersey newspaper The Star-Ledger in an interview from France where he was on vacation while avoiding the media frenzy.

"No one was trying to be audacious, honest to God," the paper quoted him as saying. "We did what we thought we had to do. No one was trying to blow people's minds or thinking, 'Wow, this'll (tick) them off.'"

"People get the impression that you're trying to (mess) with them, and it's not true. You're trying to entertain them.'"

The Star-Ledger, the local paper for the setting of the show in northern New Jersey, said Chase agreed to the interview before the season began and before he decided to go to France to avoid the Monday morning discussions about the final episode.

In the final moments of the show, Tony Soprano, played by James Gandolfini, was munching onion rings in a New Jersey diner surrounded by a smiling family.

A guy looking like a hit man had entered the restroom behind Tony and might be expected to come back out and kill the entire family, but then the screen went black for several seconds, leaving viewers to guess what happened next.

The blackout left many viewers dismayed or convinced they had lost reception. HBO, the Time Warner Inc.-owned pay-cable channel that launched The Sopranos in 1999, was immediately flooded with emails.

Asked whether the ambiguous ending was a way of setting up a movie, Chase said: "I don't think about (a movie) much."

"I never say never. An idea could pop into my head where I would go, 'Wow, that would make a great movie,' but I doubt it," The Star-Ledger quoted him as saying.

"I'm not being coy," he added. "If something appeared that really made a good Sopranos movie and you could invest in it and everybody else wanted to do it, I would do it. But I think we've kind of said it and done it."

[conorkilpatrick]

Ummm.....?

[six-gun]

crap, I didn't see that was already posted!

[jgg0610]

Seriously?

He doesn't owe anyone anything. He made the show. People can like or not like it. People liked it. He doesn't owe anybody anything. Neither did Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld, or the Six Feet Under crew, or anyone else who made hundreds of TV series. If I'd worked on my life's masterpiece for ten years, you bet your ass I'd take a vacation.
Couldn't disagree more. It's because of the fans that he was given the money to continue to make his life's masterpiece. I'm one for everyone having a vacation, but to do this and then be suddenly unavailable is a little cowardish.

[conorkilpatrick]

Couldn't disagree more. It's because of the fans that he was given the money to continue to make his life's masterpiece. I'm one for everyone having a vacation, but to do this and then be suddenly unavailable is a little cowardish.

Question - whose show is it? David Chase or the fans?

[paper]

You want art your way? Make it yourself. No one should have to shoulder the weight of countless expectations. It isn't possible to please everybody. And it's perfectly reasonable to say that the art speaks for itself.

[jgg0610]

Question - whose show is it? David Chase or the fans?
Definitely David Chases. My point is that the ending is so out of keeping with the rest of the series. If it had been a show about pushing the boundaries of television and "art" from the beginning, then fine that ending fit. But if the show has been about action, death, destruction, violence, sex and everything else from the beginning, like this show has, this ending doesn't work. It's not in keeping with the tone of the rest of the show. It felt almost like he'd wanted to do something like this from the beggining but was scared to because he was afraid he'd lose the fans. When the ending was announced, he had the oppurtunity to do it because he no longer had that worry.

That's why the Seinfeld ending didn't bother me where it did some others. It was in keeping with the general feel and tone of the show.

[paper]

People are talking about it. Match point.

[jgg0610]

People are talking about it. Match point.
People talk incessantly about Lohan and Hilton. Just because people are talking about it doesn't make it good.

[jimski]

Couldn't disagree more. It's because of the fans that he was given the money to continue to make his life's masterpiece. I'm one for everyone having a vacation, but to do this and then be suddenly unavailable is a little cowardish.

I'm pretty sure Spielberg did this when Jaws came out, and I know Lucas did it whenever a Star Wars movie came out; I think the two of them came up with Indiana Jones during one of those cowardly trips. I was under the impression it was actually quite common; you work that hard on something, and then tons of ratings and reviews and box office figures and articles come out, and anyone who isn't a complete narcissist goes, "Oh, Christ, spare me." To be honest, I was a little taken aback that we were even having this conversation.

[paper]

Well played, sir.

But I think this particular discussion has an artistic value. It's an important question.

Endings are tough.

[jgg0610]

I'm pretty sure Spielberg did this when Jaws came out, and I know Lucas did it whenever a Star Wars movie came out; I think the two of them came up with Indiana Jones during one of those cowardly trips. I was under the impression it was actually quite common; you work that hard on something, and then tons of ratings and reviews and box office figures and articles come out, and anyone who isn't a complete narcissist goes, "Oh, Christ, spare me." To be honest, I was a little taken aback that we were even having this conversation.
Your right, they both did go on vacation to Hawaii and that is where Indiana Jones was born.

My point is that Chase ended the Sopranos in a way that by his own admission he knew was going to be controversial and instead of staying here and dealing with that backlash, he ran off to France to relax. Considering this was probably filmed several weeks ago, he could still have gone on vacation and been back by now.

[paper]

But that assumes that he has a responsibility to explain himself. And he doesn't. That's his choice.

[jgg0610]

Well played, sir.

But I think this particular discussion has an artistic value. It's an important question.

Endings are tough.
Agreed. Endings are very tough. I can only name a handful of shows that have ended well. Some of my favorite series didn't end well. It doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the show it just means I won't be watching the endings again. This show for me, will not go down as one that ended well. I think it was Fred who said it earlier and said it best "it ended with a whimper".

[jgg0610]

But that assumes that he has a responsibility to explain himself. And he doesn't. That's his choice.
He doesn't have an obligation, but if you'd taken that much money from people over a period of years, wouldn't you feel some obligation to explain a slap in the face which is what this episode was?

[paper]

I'm a different kind of writer in that I like to show the process for what it is. I'll answer any questions you've got just because I know that that's valuable to other writers. Process really interest me. But not all writers are like that. Chase is apparently not like that, and i'm not gonna demand another artist treat his art the way I treat mine. Likewise, if he told me to shut my yap about the behind the scenes stuff because it's not dignified I'd tell him to **** himself.

I don't know enough to say that he thought that was the best ending or if he was trying to piss people off, and it's fine to question that. But it's his call if he wants to explain it. All he has to do is tell his story. For all we know he was telling it the best way he knew how. Some people liked it, and that's a good sign.

[fred]

I'm pretty sure Spielberg did this when Jaws came out, and I know Lucas did it whenever a Star Wars movie came out; I think the two of them came up with Indiana Jones during one of those cowardly trips. I was under the impression it was actually quite common; you work that hard on something, and then tons of ratings and reviews and box office figures and articles come out, and anyone who isn't a complete narcissist goes, "Oh, Christ, spare me." To be honest, I was a little taken aback that we were even having this conversation.

I'd like to speak for the complete narcissist's side and say that Jimski has got a point. While I would never go with "Oh Christ, spare me", I could see that many people would.

[fred]

Agreed. Endings are very tough. I can only name a handful of shows that have ended well. Some of my favorite series didn't end well. It doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the show it just means I won't be watching the endings again. This show for me, will not go down as one that ended well. I think it was Fred who said it earlier and said it best "it ended with a whimper".

this is one of my favorite things about the internet: being quoted to make a point isn't reserved for Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin anymore. Now people can quote me. That's awesome. Thank you sir.

[jgg0610]

I'm a different kind of writer in that I like to show the process for what it is. I'll answer any questions you've got just because I know that that's valuable to other writers. Process really interest me. But not all writers are like that. Chase is apparently not like that, and i'm not gonna demand another artist treat his art the way I treat mine. Likewise, if he told me to shut my yap about the behind the scenes stuff because it's not dignified I'd tell him to **** himself.

I don't know enough to say that he thought that was the best ending or if he was trying to piss people off, and it's fine to question that. But it's his call if he wants to explain it. All he has to do is tell his story. For all we know he was telling it the best way he knew how. Some people liked it, and that's a good sign.
Fair enough. I'm sure there are some people out there who thought this was the best ending imaginable. I for one don't see it that way.

[jgg0610]

this is one of my favorite things about the internet: being quoted to make a point isn't reserved for Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin anymore. Now people can quote me. That's awesome. Thank you sir.
You're welcome. It expressed my rage and irritation perfectly. Besides, I'm not JMS, I'm not going to use a long Mark Twain quote to get my point across.

[fred]

Fair enough. I'm sure there are some people out there who thought this was the best ending imaginable. I for one don't see it that way.

I'm no fan of the "ending". I think that should be clear by now. That being said though, I've written things before that I cared deeply about and showed them to people who either A) didn't get it or B) weren't into it

Having been through this, I can say that pouring some of yourself and all of your effort into something that is lost on someone is the worst feeling in the world. It really is.

While I initially snickered at his decision to "run away", on some level I get it.

[fred]

You're welcome. It expressed my rage and irritation perfectly. Besides, I'm not JMS, I'm not going to use a long Mark Twain quote to get my point across.

if only Twain and I were interchangable sir
if only



that'd be nice

[paper]

if only Twain and I were interchangable sir
if only



that'd be nice

cough photoshop cough

[fred]

cough photoshop cough

I deserve no such treatment sir. There is a line.


(no there's not - give me time)

[paper]

Here. Use this one.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/polcapn/colsanders.jpg

[fred]

I was already working on it
here it be

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/fredhosley/twainFred.gif

[jimski]

My point is that Chase ended the Sopranos in a way that by his own admission he knew was going to be controversial and instead of staying here and dealing with that backlash, he ran off to France to relax.

The thing I'm thinking about now is, what would "dealing with the backlash" mean? Like, on the ideal planet earth, what would David Chase's Monday have been like from alarm clock to bedtime? Could somebody walk me through what he would have had to do? Hair shirt? Apologize to Sharpton?

While we're on that ideal planet: what was their last episode like? What happened at the end of it that made people say, "Holy shish kebab, that was as good as I ever could have hoped"?

[conorkilpatrick]

"Sopranos" rub-out theory gains credence

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Fans of "The Sopranos" are seizing on clues suggesting the controversial blackout which abruptly ended the TV mob drama meant that Tony Soprano was rubbed out, and HBO said on Thursday they may be on to something.

One clue in particular, a flashback in the penultimate episode to a conversation between Tony and his brother-in-law about death, gained credence as an HBO spokesman called it a "legitimate" hint and confirmed that series creator David Chase had a definite ending in mind.

"While he won't say to me 100 percent what it all means, he says some people who've guessed have come closer than others," HBO spokesman Quentin Schaffer told Reuters after speaking to Chase.

"There are definitely things there that he intended for people to pick up on," Schaffer said.

Chase himself suggested as much in an interview on Tuesday with The Star-Ledger newspaper of New Jersey when he said of his end to the HBO series, "Anyone who wants to watch it, it's all there."

In the final moments of Sunday's concluding episode, Tony, the conflicted mob boss who has just survived a round of gangland warfare, sits in a diner with his family munching on onion rings as the 1980s song by rock band Journey, "Don't Stop Believing," blares from a juke box.

Tension builds as a suspicious man wearing a "Members Only" jacket eyes Tony from a nearby counter before slipping into a restroom. Then, as Tony looks toward the restaurant's entrance, the screen abruptly goes blank in mid-scene -- with no picture or sound for 10 seconds -- until the credits roll silently.

Stunned viewers, many initially believing something had gone wrong with their cable TV reception, were left wondering whether Tony ended up "whacked" or whether his sordid life went on as usual.

The jarring, fill-in-the-blank finale, concluding a show widely hailed as America's greatest television drama, sparked a furious debate about whether Chase had conceived of an actual ending and whether he left the audience any clues.

The biggest hint, according to a consensus taking shape on the Web, is a scene from an earlier episode in which Tony and his brother-in-law, Bobby Bacala, muse about what it feels like to die.

"At the end, you probably don't hear anything, everything just goes black," Bobby says while they sit fishing in a small boat on a lake.

That scene is recalled briefly in a flashback played at the end of the penultimate "Sopranos" episode, as Tony is lying in the darkened room of a safehouse clutching a machine gun to his chest in the midst of a mob war.

"I think that is one of the most legitimate things to look at," Schaffer said when asked about theories that the Bobby Bacala flashback was meant to foreshadow Tony's death.

Moreover, he said the man in the "Members Only" jacket could be interpreted as a symbolic reference to membership in the mob. "Members Only" also was the title of the episode in which Tony's demented Uncle Junior shoots him in the gut.

The "Members Only" guy was played by the owner of a real-life pizza parlor, Paolo Colandrea. Schaffer denied reports that Colandrea had appeared earlier in the series as the nephew of Tony's New York gang rival, or that there ever was such a character. He also dismissed reports that Chase had filmed more than one ending to the finale.

[jaflanagan]

Hair shirt! HA!

What's badass is letting your work speak for itself and not having to go explain yourself to the press or the ****ing internet (because those people are wackos), and just saying, "This is what I did. Deal with it."

As this week has gone on and on, I've liked the ending more and more.

[jimski]

I think a healthy dose of perspective can be provided by the blog of a long-time TV writer who posits what the Sopranos finale would have been like on a major network. (http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2007/06/if-sopranos-were-on-major-network.html)

[jgg0610]

Hair shirt! HA!

What's badass is letting your work speak for itself and not having to go explain yourself to the press or the ****ing internet (because those people are wackos), and just saying, "This is what I did. Deal with it."

As this week has gone on and on, I've liked the ending more and more.
But this work doesn't speak for itself. It's totally ambiguous. That's the point. His whole show has been to show the mafia for what they truly are: self-centered narcisists who are only out for themselves. He's made a very definitive argument on this from the very beginning and I can't think of more ambiguous way to end the show.

[jaflanagan]

It's his artistic choice to end it ambiguously. He's in charge. He's the captain. He calls the shots. It's not a democracy. You're free to dislike the product. If you dislike it so much, you can discontinue subscribing to HBO, or not buy the DVDs. Those are the only things you're entitled to.

If he wanted the last episode to be a drug induced musical extravaganza, and HBO let him do it, that's what we would have gotten. He chose to do this instead.

You didn't like it, fine. What else do you want? He's not gonna make it again. You want him to tell you why he did it, and what it means? That would completely undermine whatever he was trying to do by doing it in the first place.

Me, I'm OK with ambiguity. Ambiguity is what he chose to convey. Deal with it.

[jgg0610]

Agree to disagree on this one. I didn't like it and all of the discussion about it has made me like it even less which I didn't think was possible.

[paper]

I still don't understand what the problem with ambiguity is.

[fred]

Paper, haven't you ever seen The Crying Game?

[paper]

My dad always said I should avoid it because it might 'hit too close to home.'

[fred]

then he warned you about "getting the hose again"?

[paper]

I have like 13 responses prepared, but we all know where this is gonna end up.

[fred]

yes, let's do that.

[jimski]

The thing I'm thinking about now is, what would "dealing with the backlash" mean? Like, on the ideal planet earth, what would David Chase's Monday have been like from alarm clock to bedtime? Could somebody walk me through what he would have had to do? Hair shirt? Apologize to Sharpton?

While we're on that ideal planet: what was their last episode like? What happened at the end of it that made people say, "Holy shish kebab, that was as good as I ever could have hoped"?

Still waiting to get some interesting answers for these, by the by.

[jgg0610]

Still waiting to get some interesting answers for these, by the by.
I don't know about alarm clock to bedtime but how about going on a talk show and discuss what the process was of how he ended up with this as the best possible ending. I'd be really curious as to how that came about.

The ideal way to end the series, with a gun battle between Phil and Tony with a clearly defined winner.

[conorkilpatrick]

The ideal way to end the series, with a gun battle between Phil and Tony with a clearly defined winner.

Mob bosses don't shoot at each other. That's why they have soldiers.

[conorkilpatrick]

An absolutely fascinating examination of the final episode (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2007/06/tony_sleeps_wit.html) by an ex TV writer.

[esophagus]

I never got into the Sopranos. Found it kind of dry. I did however enjoy MAD TV's take on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFYN8loUboA

[fred]

that was really funny

[jgg0610]

An absolutely fascinating examination of the final episode (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2007/06/tony_sleeps_wit.html) by an ex TV writer.
Interesting. Have you read the EW article on it where four of their writers do editorials on it? It's in the issue with Bruce Willis on the cover. I love the line from the first one, paraphrasing, "the ending seemed like a film trick".

[conorkilpatrick]

AFTER ONION RINGS
TONY LIVES: CHASE

By MICHAEL STARR
"Sopranos" family in the finale that ended with no bang.

October 18, 2007 -- 'SOPRANOS" creator David Chase has a pretty good idea what happens to Tony and family after the famous black-out finale.

"People have said that the Soprano family's whole life goes in the toilet in the last episode. That the parents' whole twisted lifestyle is visited on the children," Chase says in a new, defintive book about the mob opera.

"And that's true - to a certain extent," he says in The Sopranos: The Complete Book," which is excerpted in the upcoming edition of Entertainment Weekly magazine.

"But look at it: A.J.'s not going to become a citizen-soldier or join the Peace Corps or try to help the world; he'll probably be a low-level movie producer," Chase says.

"But he's not going to be a killer like his father, is he?

"Meadow may not become a pediatrician or even a lawyer, but she's not going to be a housewife-whore like her mother," he says, colorfully.

For months, Chase has said he had nothing in mind - and certainly not Tony's death, as many fans speculated - when he decided to fade the series to black without resolution after eight years and 84 episodes.

In the book, he lets on that he has indeed thought deeply about how his famous characters ended up, after all.

Chase says he wasn't surprised by the angry reaction of "Sopranos" fans who complained the show's finale didn't give them "closure."

"There was so much more to say than could have been conveyed by an image of Tony facedown in a bowl of onion rings with a bullet in his head. Or, on the other side, taking over the New York Mob," he says.

"The way I see it is that Tony Soprano had been people's alter ego. They had gleefully watched him rob, kill, pillage, lie and cheat. They had cheered him on.

"And then, all of a sudden, they want to see him punished for all that.

"They wanted to see his brains splattered on the wall. I thought that was disgusting, frankly.

"The pathetic thing - to me - was how much they wanted his blood, after cheering him on for eight years."

[jimski]

That really upset me for a second there, until I realized that the headline, like so many headlines, does not accurately reflect what was said at all.

[six-gun]

I always find it interesting when a thread that seems dead comes back up

[fred]

what an apt way to put it! ironic even, in its way.

[six-gun]

what an apt way to put it! ironic even, in its way.

completely unintentional ;)

[fred]

I figured as much but tip my hat none the less.