'The Dark Knight Returns': One of the all time great works in comics?

[rntaboy]

Some of my friends and I are somewhat befuddled by the sheer volume of praise that is lavished on Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns batman story. I read it, and enjoyed it, but it didn't put me in awe like some of the other books that it is placed in company with. I wasn't overwhelmed by the anything about it, like I was with the story of Watchmen or the sheer emotion that Maus elicited from me. In all honesty, I was much more impressed overall with The Long Halloween in terms of a Batman story. I guess you can put me in the category of people who just don't get it, but I would like for someone to break it down for me.
I'm not trying to be divisive, this has just always been a question that I wanted to ask.

[Humphrey Lee]

I still think it's great, and is definitely a seminal work, but I can also think of at least two dozen graphic novels or series better than it. Plus I like Year One better.

[JAFlanagan]

I'm actually re-reading it right now, for the first time in a while, and I'd have to disagree with you. Even the page layouts are exemplary.

Have you been reading for a long time? Because that might have something to do with it. To me, I see the craft that goes into DKR, and I'm awed. A younger, less experienced me might have taken some of that stuff for granted.

But as far as establishing a tone, and taking something in a direction no one had ever been in before, the book is unbeaten.

It might also be a case of the fact that this book set the standard for the style in which it was written, so since DKR, a billion books have copied the style, which obscures the fact of how original this was, because it was one of the first books to do it like this.

I think Year One is more instantly accessible, and I might actually enjoy it more, but as far as a comic book acheivement, DKR beats Year One. But that just might be a snobby approach.

[rntaboy]

I've only been reading comics consistently for about a year, so you might be right about that. I should read it again, and I probably will over the weekend, so I might have a different take on it later, but can you really put it in the same breath as Watchmen or Maus?

[Humphrey Lee]

I think Year One is more instantly accessible, and I might actually enjoy it more, but as far as a comic book acheivement, DKR beats Year One. But that just might be a snobby approach.

That's what I meant by "Like" more. I reread DKR when I got my Absolute of it last year (And damn them for not including Year One in that too) and it smacks you in the face with just how revolutionary it is, even after all this time. Overall though, I think by now I've just read a decent bit better at this point just with the shear amount of comic books I've read in the eight years since I first read DKR. Not many, but enough.

[ConorKilpatrick]

It might also be a case of the fact that this book set the standard for the style in which it was written, so since DKR, a billion books have copied the style, which obscures the fact of how original this was, because it was one of the first books to do it like this..

The Goodfellas Effect.

[Humphrey Lee]

The Goodfellas Effect.

Or the Dark Knight effect since it did come first. :)

[ConorKilpatrick]

Man, I need to read this again, pronto.

[Humphrey Lee]

Read it in glorious Absolute oversizedness?

I swear, I would honestly sell probably half my collection just to afford the other half in that format.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Read it in glorious Absolute oversizedness?

But of course. I must first summon a few interns to hold that massive tome for me, though.

[Humphrey Lee]

But of course. I must first summon a few interns to old that massive tome for me, though.

God I wish I had interns. That way they could do my reviews for me when I get too inebriated to. Sadly, this actually does happen pretty often. So professional I am.

Goddammit, I think I'm gonna reread this too. My pile is pretty low finally and I'm on a Batman kick with all the The Dark Knight info coming about.

[DarrOn]

I haven't even really thought of DKR much recently, so perhaps another read is in order. I don't think I'll be partaking in the second half the DKR Absolute, though. Once was enough, there.

[paper]

Is it possible to appreciate the craft and skill but still dislike the story itself?

Hypothetically.

[fred]

yes. It's happened to me before too.

not on this one, but on others yes

[JAFlanagan]

Paper, do you actually like anything? ;)

[Luthor]

I'm not a big fan of DKR. I think there is much better representations of the art form then it(Watchmen comes to mind immediately).

[Mikegraham6]

i enjoyed this book if only because it gave birth to the gritty dark batman. some concept were interesting in it and others i found annoying (the mutants). i feel that the first book and the last book of this four issue series were the parts that hooked me most. i loved seeing batman's comeback and then his fight with superman (f'n right batman won!). but the middle always loses me. don't get me wrong i love the book but i'd much rather read year one.

I also don't think it's in the same ballpark as watchmen. Watchmen is epic and has depth that i couldn't find in DKR. i also like how moore creates an entire 40 yr history of continuity with these characters. Everyone i've given that book to has skipped over the prose section at the end of each chapter and i always get angry at them since i feel they add so much to the story.
DKR is good, but i don't think it's watchmen good

[fred]

Paper, do you actually like anything? ;)

He likes the sound of the wind rustling through the leaves as he kicks a can down the street imagining conversations between Bendis and Cho.

[kwok_talk]

It’s a fun read, but I don’t quite get why it’s held up so high (same thing with Watchmen, except I didn’t consider that a fun read). Perhaps there are more contextual/historical comic factors that are lost on me. Interestingly, a non-comic friend had this as part of the required curriculum back in a college English class. She loved it and it turned her on to comic appreciation.

[JAFlanagan]

You people are insane.

Can we start another thread where we discuss the relative disappointment that is the first Godfather movie?

[Mikegraham6]

You people are insane.

Can we start another thread where we discuss the relative disappointment that is the first Godfather movie?

I liked the second one better;):D

[kwok_talk]

You people are insane.

Can we start another thread where we discuss the relative disappointment that is the first Godfather movie?

I haven't seen any of them. :eek:

(I just imagine Josh breaking a pencil in his grip right about now.)

[fred]

You people are insane.

Can we start another thread where we discuss the relative disappointment that is the first Godfather movie?

<cough><cough> newsarama ;)

[Humphrey Lee]

Is it possible to appreciate the craft and skill but still dislike the story itself?

Hypothetically.

I call that "Citizen Kane syndrome". Watched it once, appreciated everything about it and what it meant to the world of movies, even today, never ever want to see it again.

I think I'm a rare breed though, cause typically most people associate entertainment with quality, so if they don't like the story, or they find it boring, then it has to be bad, or at least "not as good". And that's how you get at least one "Watchmen is overrated" thread once a week on various forums.

[horatio616]

This thread is insane and should be closed immediately. I want to hear any more nonsense about DK not being that good. I'm about to cry.

[horatio616]

I think it would be more fun to discuss how much and why DK2 sucked.

[Humphrey Lee]

I think it would be more fun to discuss how much and why DK2 sucked.

Well that's easy, the horrible computerized coloring job made art that was already a little rough around the edges look almost downright ugly, and then 9/11 reared its ugly head causing a pretty drastic change in tone after the first issue which lead to the following two thirds of the story being a mish-mash of Frank Miller trying to make too many points about too many things.

Last time I read my Absolute DKR I did read DKSA and I loved the first issue but the following two drove me nuts. I think that be why.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Last time I read my Absolute DKR I did read DKSA and I loved the first issue but the following two drove me nuts. I think that be why.

The first issue was a Pick of the Week way back when.

[JAFlanagan]

I call that "Citizen Kane syndrome". Watched it once, appreciated everything about it and what it meant to the world of movies, even today, never ever want to see it again.


I can understand that. But, when I saw it later, I liked it more. And after that, I liked it even more. Any time you go in to something that everyone says is the best thing ever, you're going to be biased.

Either way, you people are still insane. It's an exemplary work.

[Humphrey Lee]

I can understand that. But, when I saw it later, I liked it more. And after that, I liked it even more. Any time you go in to something that everyone says is the best thing ever, you're going to be biased.

Either way, you people are still insane. It's an exemplary work.

That could be true for CK. Honestly, haven't watched it in half a decade so I might readily accept the story more now, if not just the technical aspect of it. I still read DKR yearly though, and I only do that for the "exemplary works".

[xyzzy]

Is it possible to appreciate the craft and skill but still dislike the story itself?

Hypothetically.

It certainly is. It's the reason that I still own Jimmy Corrigan, the Smartest Kid on Earth. The plot/dialogue/story is abysmal, in my opinion. A maudlin, self-absorbed mess. The design, layout and overall construction of the book, however, are brilliant. I just wish that Chris Ware would collaborate with someone with some writing chops. That would be a book to look out for.

As far as DKR goes, I think that it is a very well crafted story that I enjoy quite a bit. The reason you hear it mentioned in the same breath as Watchmen, however, is only partially because of the quality. It's mostly because of the impact it had on an entire generation of writers, artists and readers.

[Six Gun]

I've been re-reading Dark Knight, and last night I came across the scene when Batman rescues a little girl from the heavily armed mutants, the scene ends with a mutant holding a gun to the child's head and Batman appearing to shoot him in the head with another mutant's M-60, did Batman actually kill that mutant? I always thought so, but later he re-states that he hasn't yet crossed the line of killing when he refuses to shoot the mutant leader through with one of the Batmobile's cannons.

[horatio616]

I've been re-reading Dark Knight, and last night I came across the scene when Batman rescues a little girl from the heavily armed mutants, the scene ends with a mutant holding a gun to the child's head and Batman appearing to shoot him in the head with another mutant's M-60, did Batman actually kill that mutant? I always thought so, but later he re-states that he hasn't yet crossed the line of killing when he refuses to shoot the mutant leader through with one of the Batmobile's cannons.

I always thought it was a shoulder shot.

[Six Gun]

I'm looking at the panel and tge bullet hole in the wall is where his head would have been, but there's no obvious bullet wound. Batman's line "I believed you" seems to be a post-killing quip.

[seNoj1]

Before i read any comics other than Archie. I went into a bookstore and picked up Dark Knight Returns. I didn't know the establishment behind it. It was just there and i liked the cover. I'm 16 now so i had to be like 12ish. It was awe inspiring. The only other Batman i knew was the cartoons before this. I love DKR for the sheer fact that i threw me into comics and im grateful for it. It was pure chance that i read it and was moved by it. So personally i think DKR is above Watchmen because of what it did for me.

[rntaboy]

As far as DKR goes, I think that it is a very well crafted story that I enjoy quite a bit. The reason you hear it mentioned in the same breath as Watchmen, however, is only partially because of the quality. It's mostly because of the impact it had on an entire generation of writers, artists and readers.

Okay, I can understand this, but just because something influenced people, that by no means equates to it being good. I'm not saying DKR isn't good, just that quality and influence aren't always directly proportional.

[paper]

Paper, do you actually like anything? ;)

I wasn't saying I felt that way. I was just suggesting that because maybe it's something that could be explored. Maybe there are people who feel that way but can't quite articulate it as such.

I haven't actually read the book, so...

You're mixing me up with Humphrey. He's the one with the incredibly high standards. I like tons of things.

I'm getting a rap because I didn't like Detective last week. I think I'm usually pretty fair when it comes to comics.

[MastaP]

This is the closest thing I have to an absolute favorite book, Its not only revolutionary with a profound story, but it's fun and exciting, something to be honest, Watchmen is not. I Love this book

[paper]

This is still bothering me. I don't want you guys to think I'm a hater. Am I really being too critical? I just realized I was kinda harsh on Plain Janes too. Arg. I'm a nice guy, I swear.

I'm gonna go read Watchmen. Or DKR.

[Benjy77]

It has been a few years since I read this book, but I can't remember. Did Jason Todd die before DKR came out or after? For some reason I remember seeing the empty glass case with Robin suit in that book.

[CAM!]

Pretty sure he died after, but it would've been easy for Miller to "predict" the death of a robin EVENTUALLY, you know?

I think the important thing about the work itself is, as has been mentioned, how it changed the face of comics.

PLus, Green Arrow is wicked.

And Miller had a great handle on the Batman/Superman relationship.

[ConorKilpatrick]

It has been a few years since I read this book, but I can't remember. Did Jason Todd die before DKR came out or after? For some reason I remember seeing the empty glass case with Robin suit in that book.

The Dark Night Returns happened first by two years.

[Benjy77]

Pretty sure he died after, but it would've been easy for Miller to "predict" the death of a robin EVENTUALLY, you know?

But, who could have predicted that Jason Todd would return?

Does that make him a zombie?

[CAM!]

But, who could have predicted that Jason Todd would return?

Does that make him a zombie?

Makes him a goddamn waste of pages in my comics...

Nice hood though...

[fred]

he should get it pierced

[horatio616]

he should get it pierced

I think Prince Albert is a cooler codename than the Red Hood.

[JMF]

I took DKR and Kingdom Come on Holiday one Year. To be honest at the time i liked Kingdom Come more. But after Re Reading them both I gotta Say DKR is a masterpiece for me. Its just so well crafted and so well done.

[kahunablair]

I took DKR and Kingdom Come on Holiday one Year. To be honest at the time i liked Kingdom Come more. But after Re Reading them both I gotta Say DKR is a masterpiece for me. Its just so well crafted and so well done.

I love DKR for what it is, and I will reread it whenever I come across it, but for me Kingdom Come wins out. Kingdom Come just gets me everytime.

[DarrOn]

I love DKR for what it is, and I will reread it whenever I come across it, but for me Kingdom Come wins out. Kingdom Come just gets me everytime.

Ditto to the Nth degree. Now that I know there's a novelation of it (Thanks, Conor), I'm all for that.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Now that I know there's a novelation of it (Thanks, Conor), I'm all for that.

You're welcome (http://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Come-Elliot-S-Maggin/dp/0446606693/ref=sr_1_5/103-3410139-7315858?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181701167&sr=1-5).

[paper]

That settles it. I'm gonna hunt down a copy of Kingdom Come tomorrow.

[acomicbookgirl]

That settles it. I'm gonna hunt down a copy of Kingdom Come tomorrow.

Um.. Did you not read your VIRB comments.. ;)

[paper]

It's meant to beeeeeee!

The only way to make me more excited about this would be for you guys to tell me that the book is filled with Alex Ross paintings!

[DarrOn]

The only way to make me more excited about this would be for you guys to tell me that the book is filled with Alex Ross paintings!

Oh....you, didn't get the memo....did you?

[acomicbookgirl]

Apparently not.. ;)

[paper]

Alex Ross gave up art?

[DarrOn]

Actually, completely off-topic again, did anyone hear his interview on Fanboy Radio a few months back? I've never read or heard Ross before, and to be honest I kinda expected him to come across as a pretentious dick. But no way. He was the nicest dude, obviously he knows his way around a comic, he's pretty funny. I was so releaved he wasn't a douchebag, y'know?

Either way, I still wanna go back and re-read DKR.

[acomicbookgirl]

I have DKR in my trades to read stack..

[Humphrey Lee]

Alex Ross gave up art?

If only...

[DarrOn]

If only...

:eek:

I'm...I'm..I'm......really?

[acomicbookgirl]

If only...

:confused:

[paper]

If only...

So are all the trash cans on Sesame Street interconnected in some kind of labyrinthine tunnel system? I've always wondered this. So I couldn't pass on this opportunity.

;)

[paper]

Just in the last three posts I think I won Emoticon Bingo!

[Humphrey Lee]

:eek:

I'm...I'm..I'm......really?

Yes. Given, the man does make an incredible splash page. Don't get me wrong, there's some downright epic shots in Kingdom Come that deserve the recognition they get. But the man is a horrible story teller. His facial expressions for the most part are nonexistent, his panel transitions are clunky as hell, and EVERYONE is posed. There isn't a single lax figure in any of his artwork. The only reason Justice is as dynamic as it is is because Ross pretty much colored it, it's not his groundwork.

I wish/hope he just sticks to whipping out a random cover for whatever book needs the sales. Other than that I don't see much use for his style. Hell, I even wear his Village Voice piece with George W. once a week.

[paper]

No, I can see where you're coming from. It's a completely different skill, and one best devoted to covers.

[Humphrey Lee]

No, I can see where you're coming from. It's a completely different skill, and one best devoted to covers.

Yep, that's pretty much it.

[Mikegraham6]

I like Kingdom Come, but upon rereading it a few months ago i don't think it's in the same category as DKR or Watchmen. I love the art and i think anything Alex Ross does is beautiful. The story isn't as deep as those other works though. I felt like Waid was trying beat me over the head with his religious symbolism in that book. Superman as jesus, yeah i get it..... Waid was trying too hard to be a watchmen but i think he failed in the process. He crafted a great superhero story but i wouldn't say it's a great literary work or even a classic.
It's good and worth checking out but in the same way Green Lantern Rebirth is good, and you wouldn't mention GLR in the same category as Watchmen or DKR or Sandman or Preacher, hell i even think Powers is better....

[kwok_talk]

I felt like Waid was trying beat me over the head with his religious symbolism in that book. Superman as jesus, yeah i get it..... Waid was trying too hard to be a watchmen but i think he failed in the process. He crafted a great superhero story but i wouldn't say it's a great literary work or even a classic.


Interesting. That never came to mind when I was reading it. But I’ll jump on the Kingdom Come love train.

Why would DKR be considered a great literary work? I’m not trying to be facetious, but I don’t immediately see what makes it transcend from “great comic book” to “great literature.” Watchmen, I can kind of see, because of the scope of the work and prose intermingled.

[CAM!]

No, I can see where you're coming from. It's a completely different skill, and one best devoted to covers.

I disagree. Not with the different skill bit, but with what he's best suited for.

Have you seen his oversized books? He did one for the big three (Bats, SUpes, and WW) and a JLA one. All beautiful dynamic storytelling. He just works better on a large scale.

[Mikegraham6]

I felt like Waid was trying beat me over the head with his religious symbolism in that book. Superman as jesus, yeah i get it..... Waid was trying too hard to be a watchmen but i think he failed in the process. He crafted a great superhero story but i wouldn't say it's a great literary work or even a classic.


Interesting. That never came to mind when I was reading it. But I’ll jump on the Kingdom Come love train.

Why would DKR be considered a great literary work? I’m not trying to be facetious, but I don’t immediately see what makes it transcend from “great comic book” to “great literature.” Watchmen, I can kind of see, because of the scope of the work and prose intermingled.

i've just seen it mentioned along side those books often, i just don't think it's the best representation of what a comic can do (except for looking exceptionally pretty, of course)

[CAM!]

Interesting. That never came to mind when I was reading it. But I’ll jump on the Kingdom Come love train.

Why would DKR be considered a great literary work? I’m not trying to be facetious, but I don’t immediately see what makes it transcend from “great comic book” to “great literature.” Watchmen, I can kind of see, because of the scope of the work and prose intermingled.


Well, it does pose questions about media, and government and totalitarian futures. Pretty grand concepts, considered in other works of literature, but not like this.

[paper]

I like Kingdom Come, but upon rereading it a few months ago i don't think it's in the same category as DKR or Watchmen. I love the art and i think anything Alex Ross does is beautiful. The story isn't as deep as those other works though. I felt like Waid was trying beat me over the head with his religious symbolism in that book. Superman as jesus, yeah i get it..... Waid was trying too hard to be a watchmen but i think he failed in the process. He crafted a great superhero story but i wouldn't say it's a great literary work or even a classic.
It's good and worth checking out but in the same way Green Lantern Rebirth is good, and you wouldn't mention GLR in the same category as Watchmen or DKR or Sandman or Preacher, hell i even think Powers is better....

In that same vein the parallel action techniques in Watchmen bug the hell out of me. It's really transparent. It's a nitpick, but it's the reason it's taking me so long to read it.

[Mikegraham6]

In that same vein the parallel action techniques in Watchmen bug the hell out of me. It's really transparent. It's a nitpick, but it's the reason it's taking me so long to read it.

Ahhh you just hate everything paper! :D

[paper]

Go skim through the graphic novel and trade review thread. I like plenty.

Every time I express distaste for something demand I present three things I do like.

[JAFlanagan]

Paper, I didn't mean to make you the pariah. At least you don't get emails on a regular basis telling you what's wrong with your comic book tastes.

I just wanted to mention that I read some more DKR last night. I'm proceeding slowly. But the few pages I read last night were awesome. There was a conversation between the president and Superman that was just awesome. The writing and dialog are spot on, and the social commentary on the society at the time is fantastic, and could parallel today.

Again I say, you people are insane!

[Jimski]

I planned to reread this a month ago, and actually only reread book 1. I'll say this much: it was utterly wasted on me when I was 11. For one thing, I didn't know who "Selena" was supposed to be or why I should care. (I swear, what were those schools teaching us?)

[miyamotofreak]

I skim it every couple days and read it every few weeks. I feel the artwork is brilliant. the story is just fantastic (the bomb purse was a nice shock), and overall a fantastic direction for Batman (and a great end). Just think about it: Where would Batman be today without it?
Also I feel that Millers developing of Gordon was genius (in this and Year One). I love the book. This and watchmen are just... Well let's just say that I was not at all surprised when iFanboy gave these books unanimous top 5 votes.

[Humphrey Lee]

I like Kingdom Come, but upon rereading it a few months ago i don't think it's in the same category as DKR or Watchmen. I love the art and i think anything Alex Ross does is beautiful. The story isn't as deep as those other works though. I felt like Waid was trying beat me over the head with his religious symbolism in that book. Superman as jesus, yeah i get it..... Waid was trying too hard to be a watchmen but i think he failed in the process. He crafted a great superhero story but i wouldn't say it's a great literary work or even a classic.
It's good and worth checking out but in the same way Green Lantern Rebirth is good, and you wouldn't mention GLR in the same category as Watchmen or DKR or Sandman or Preacher, hell i even think Powers is better....

See Mike, we might have went at odds over hockey, but here we're in solidarity.

I still like Kingdom Come, and enjoy and like the point it makes, but I can look over at my bookcases and find you at least probably fifty runs or graphic novels or whatever that I would say are better. Maybe not as influential (yet) or as entertaining (since action oriented books always beat the artsy ones in entertainment value) but definitely better.

[Chris Neseman]

It's a work that changed the industry. Redefined maybe the most iconic character in the medium.

Not to mention that Frank Miller was already considered a master of the medium before DKR.

This series changed everything and continues to do it today. The fact that it's over 20 years old and we're discussing it here is a testament to that.

To compare it to Watchmen is like comparing two great pieces of art, or a Beatles song to a Rolling Stones song...

[JAFlanagan]

To compare it to Watchmen is like comparing two great pieces of art, or a Beatles song to a Rolling Stones song...

See, I was with you right up to here. The Beatles never needed the Stones to write a song for them. ;)

[Six Gun]

I'm going to throw in a 64 bit generation video game analogy.

Watchmen is the comic industries Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time, while The Dark Knight Returns is it's Metal Gear Solid.

[paper]

All your base are belong to Liefeld.

[fred]

then I say forsooth, Watchmen in pwned by Dark Knight

[Mikegraham6]

I'm going to throw in a 64 bit generation video game analogy.

Watchmen is the comic industries Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time, while The Dark Knight Returns is it's Metal Gear Solid.

i can agree with you there but i also don't think i enjoy MGS as much as you do:D
it's a good game but it's no zelda;)

[paper]

i can agree with you there but i also don't think i enjoy MGS as much as you do:D

No one does. It's not possible.

Why do all the milestone major league masterpiece comics have to be so sad? Is that just the way it worked out or is that just the nature of a 'classic'?

[Kal]

For me, DKR is a classic not only because of the craft and social commentary behind it, but because it, along with Watchmen, ushered in a new wave of comics that were adult oriented and mature. Watchmen, I think, brought about more mature stories and storytelling techniques for writers, but I think DKR brought about the same thing from an art perspective (for better or worse).

From a craft aspect, Miller completely owned those pages. You have to look pretty deep to see what he's doing, but he controlled the flow of time in each page like no other book before it has.

Plus, it's filled with all of these "**** yeah!" moments that made it a much more accessible read than Watchmen. There are so many pages in the book that are etched in my mind because of it's total badass-ery.

I was a new comic reader at the time, and I read Watchmen and DKR within a week of each other, and to this day, I still cite DKR as the book that really got me into comics.

[CharlesDaCriticCzar]

I like DKR but never went gaga over it. I liked Year One more. Maybe it's because I've never liked the way Miller protrayed Superman. Now after checking out All Star Bats, I see he just doesn't seem to "get" any of the other DC heroes. Or maybe it's me.

[esophagus]

Actually, I think one of the best parts of DKR is the way he portrays superman. I think he has him down PERFECT. Remember this is all supposed to take place in the future of the DCU. Superman's downfall has always been his blind faith in humanity, and in specific, the United States. I imagine Clark and Bruces relationship could only stand its constant wear and tear for so long, and that things would be quite strained at this point. And if Clark tohught that Batman was doing anything to put anyone in harm, he would do whatever he could to stop it. He wasn't trying to be an ass, he was just trying to help, blindly as usual.

DKR is all around amazing though.

[rntaboy]

I just finished rereading DKR. I have a greater appreciation for the art, which to me is the best part of the book. The layouts are really great also, but it still doesn't hit me like Watchmen or Maus, as the writing and plot don't exceed good for me.

[RaceMcCloud]

Well, I finally purchased and read "The Dark Knight Returns".

And...

What do you know? It lives up to the hype. It's a great read now, I can only imagine it hitting the industry like an atomic bomb when that type of "Dark Knight" Batman characterization wasn't already well-known and accepted.

I don't want to go into a huge thing about it, but art, story, character representation... all really fantastic. And I loved Ollie Queen in it, even if it's a bit part.

Oh! And the Carrie Kelley Robin is fantastic. Has she ever been used again?

My only (and I mean ONLY) caveat would be all the TV commentary panels. I get the point already.

This article on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Star_Batman_and_Robin_the_Boy_Wonder#Continuit y) says that Year One, All Star, Batman/Spawn and most of Frank Millers batman work takes place on Earth-31.

And I also just read "The Long Halloween", which according to the introduction belongs on the above list as an in-continuity story along with the rest of Miller's Bat-verse. So I've really loved the stuff in DKR that called back to (or predicted) stuff in these later books. References in DKR to Batmans horrible, cackling laugh (on full display in ASB&R), Superman talking about Batman's tendency to go "off the farm" from the other heroes, making them all look bad, the references to Dick Grayson who clearly does exist in this universe thanks to ASB&R (I'd love to see the Jason Todd story told in this continuity)... and finally, my favorite throwback (and a very popular theme in the Batman world as of late), Batman insisting to Jim Gordon that oft repeated mantra, "I believe in Harvey Dent." Full circle, baby. Full circle.

When the hell does "The Dark Knight" hit DVD? I need to watch it again.

[paper]

Remember remember, the 9th of December.

[thenextchampion]

My problem with this 'Millerverse' is that Year One totally doesnt deserve to be in there. That is suppose to be a reboot of Batman's origins after the first Crisis. It shouldnt be involved with the old and crazy Batman found in his DKR and DKSA stories.

All Star Batman yes, because I can totally see that Batman work for his Dark Knight series. That Batman is 'Bat-Shit' crazy and his treatment of Dick totally works for the later Strikes Again story....But Year One? No reason for that to be in there...

[paper]

Make your own continuity.

[RaceMcCloud]

My problem with this 'Millerverse' is that Year One totally doesnt deserve to be in there. That is suppose to be a reboot of Batman's origins after the first Crisis. It shouldnt be involved with the old and crazy Batman found in his DKR and DKSA stories.

All Star Batman yes, because I can totally see that Batman work for his Dark Knight series. That Batman is 'Bat-Shit' crazy and his treatment of Dick totally works for the later Strikes Again story....But Year One? No reason for that to be in there...

I can agree with that a bit. That Batman doesn't seem quite as off-the-deep-end as ASB&R and the "Dark Knight" books. But the "Year One" Batman segues better into "Long Halloween".

I Believe in Harvey Dent.

[miyamotofreak]

My problem with this 'Millerverse' is that Year One totally doesnt deserve to be in there. That is suppose to be a reboot of Batman's origins after the first Crisis. It shouldnt be involved with the old and crazy Batman found in his DKR and DKSA stories.

All Star Batman yes, because I can totally see that Batman work for his Dark Knight series. That Batman is 'Bat-Shit' crazy and his treatment of Dick totally works for the later Strikes Again story....But Year One? No reason for that to be in there...
Year One Batman never had to deal with the Joker.

[esophagus]

My problem with this 'Millerverse' is that Year One totally doesnt deserve to be in there. That is suppose to be a reboot of Batman's origins after the first Crisis. It shouldnt be involved with the old and crazy Batman found in his DKR and DKSA stories.

All Star Batman yes, because I can totally see that Batman work for his Dark Knight series. That Batman is 'Bat-Shit' crazy and his treatment of Dick totally works for the later Strikes Again story....But Year One? No reason for that to be in there...Year One is the beginning of his career, DKR and DKSA are getting closer to the end. A lot of experiences that Batman has to deal wtih could very easily make him grow more cynical and crazy as time goes on.

But like Paper said, if it doesn't work for you just make it your own.

[sullivan85]

I agree. I can see Long Halloween and Dark Victory as "sequels" to Year One very easily. But it's harder to see the Year One leading into All-Star. However, you could take the opinion that since Year One is Batman literally just starting out, he simply hasn't changed into the person we meet in All-Star.

Like Conor has said and other's have echoed, "make your own continuity". Or go insane trying to follow DC's actual "continuity".

[RaceMcCloud]

If everyone "makes your own continuity", then what's the point of having continuity in the first place? Not that I'm really married to/care much about continuity anyway. A good story takes precedent to continuity, IMO. And "Batman: Year One", "Dark Knight Returns", "Long Halloween", and "All Star Batman and Robin" are all good stories.

[ConorKilpatrick]

If everyone "makes your own continuity", then what's the point of having continuity in the first place?

When you've got so many different books and different writers there is none, really. It's too convoluted to make any rational sense.

[thenextchampion]

I agree. I can see Long Halloween and Dark Victory as "sequels" to Year One very easily. But it's harder to see the Year One leading into All-Star. However, you could take the opinion that since Year One is Batman literally just starting out, he simply hasn't changed into the person we meet in All-Star.

Like Conor has said and other's have echoed, "make your own continuity". Or go insane trying to follow DC's actual "continuity".

The idea that Year One Batman and All Star Batman are the same person makes me laugh. Cause it sounds like Bruce went from calm and cool individual, to as crazy and fucked up as the Joker within a couple of years....Which I guess is realistic especially with the job he has night after night....But still, it's funny to me if that is the case of the Millerverse, then he made Batman go crazy so fast...

[RaceMcCloud]

When you've got so many different books and different writers there is none, really. It's too convoluted to make any rational sense.

I pretty much agree with that. But if that's the truth, then why does everyone go nuts about it?

Or, wait... maybe that's just Ron with the X-Men.

[RaceMcCloud]

The idea that Year One Batman and All Star Batman are the same person makes me laugh. Cause it sounds like Bruce went from calm and cool individual, to as crazy and fucked up as the Joker within a couple of years....Which I guess is realistic especially with the job he has night after night....But still, it's funny to me if that is the case of the Millerverse, then he made Batman go crazy so fast...

You do what he does, see how long it takes you to go crazy.

But I do see your point.

[sullivan85]

Not to go too off topic here, but I think that's why my favorite books and titles are ones with one writer (and one artist sometimes), that usualy exist in their own "universe" so there's no question about what's canon and what's not. EG: Walking Dead, Powers, Preacher, Exterminators, Invincible, etc...

But none of those books really have to deal with their characters living in a shared universe (save for Invincible).

Luckily for us there's tons of titles to choose from out there! Love or hate continuity, there's a book for you kiddo!

[jasonb35]

I'm new to these boards so when I came across the title of this thread I have to say I was initially shocked by this even being a question.

To mainstream America when you thought of Batman you thought of the goofy Adam West version of Batman. Comic book characters in general were thought of in the more fluffy Superfriends kind of way. Dark Knight was a catalyst that kind of started comics into a level of darkness that had not been seen before. This wouldn't have mattered so much except that it was done so well that it gained mainstream attention. It created demand for darker more gritty stories and established that comic books were a media not necessarily for kids anymore.

Not only was Batman more gritty and mean but Joker was taken to an all new level of scary and evil that I don't believe was the norm up until that time.

I was a hardcore Marvel guy and the main reason that I didn't read DC was because I thought it was too fluffy and not real enough. (I was a kid so I'm not saying that was reality.) Dark Knight changed that for me. It took what I thought Marvel was doing up to the next level.

Watchmen is obviously great but it was a story with a brand new set of characters in a self contained universe. Dark Knight took an icon in a direction never seen before so in a way it was much more daring. There would be no Year One or many other stories that took mainstream DC and Marvel characters down darker and grittier paths without the Dark Knight.

In a nutshell, Dark Knight was one of those shocks to the system that changes the preconcieved notions that you have about something permanently.

[RaceMcCloud]

I'm new to these boards so when I came across the title of this thread I have to say I was initially shocked by this even being a question.

To mainstream America when you thought of Batman you thought of the goofy Adam West version of Batman. Comic book characters in general were thought of in the more fluffy Superfriends kind of way. Dark Knight was a catalyst that kind of started comics into a level of darkness that had not been seen before. This wouldn't have mattered so much except that it was done so well that it gained mainstream attention. It created demand for darker more gritty stories and established that comic books were a media not necessarily for kids anymore.

Not only was Batman more gritty and mean but Joker was taken to an all new level of scary and evil that I don't believe was the norm up until that time.

I was a hardcore Marvel guy and the main reason that I didn't read DC was because I thought it was too fluffy and not real enough. (I was a kid so I'm not saying that was reality.) Dark Knight changed that for me. It took what I thought Marvel was doing up to the next level.

Watchmen is obviously great but it was a story with a brand new set of characters in a self contained universe. Dark Knight took an icon in a direction never seen before so in a way it was much more daring. There would be no Year One or many other stories that took mainstream DC and Marvel characters down darker and grittier paths without the Dark Knight.

In a nutshell, Dark Knight was one of those shocks to the system that changes the preconcieved notions that you have about something permanently.

Welcome aboard, bro. And I'd say you hit the nail on the head. "Dark Knight Returns" still holds up today as a great story. But what's really so important about it is the seismic shift it triggered that has slowly shifted the perception of comics and superheroes from "kid's stuff" to that of a legitimate storytelling medium.