I Hate Superman

[itsbecca]

I think this would be a mildly relevant place to ask something I've been thinking about since I joined here...

I hate Superman. His character at it's core just truly does not interest me in any way. With his goodness, perfection, abundance of power and I somewhat despise his position of lordship in the DCU. I have enjoyed stories he is a part of, but it was dispite him and I generally bit my tongue through his involvement . I also do enjoy some of his villians, which is what mainly inspires this question.

Is this just a normal preference I need to live with? Or is there something I should be reading that will bring me over?

I don't need to like him, but I just know how much writing can change a character.

[comhcinc]

I hate Superman.

Is this just a normal preference I need to live with? Or is there something I should be reading that will bring me over?


yeah i am with you on that, but there are some great stories with him kingdom come and superman for all seasons jump straight to mind

[darron]

I don't need to like him, but I just know how much writing can change a character.

Have you read many stand-alone Superman stories? If not, one of the best ones I can recommend is Superman For All Seasons, by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale. It follows Supes from his awkwardly large childhood in Smallville to his beginnings as Superman in Metroplois, all the while getting a feel for his supporting characters. It's an absolutely fantastic story.

[darron]

Also, Superman: Red Son is probably my second favorite Supes story, behind SFAS. Basic concept? Superman landed in Soviet Russia instead of a Kansas farm. Another great story, penned by Mark Millar. I forget who does the art.

[fred]

I was going to suggest Red Son. It's great. I'm not really a Superman fan either and I loved it. Also, oddly I'm reading the Superman Infinite Crisis trade right now and it's pretty good. All Star Superman is also enjoyable. Superman Confidential is pretty but it confuses the hell out of me.

[itsbecca]

Now THAT sounds up my alley. SFAS, and Red son are at my library and I requested Kingdom Come from another one. Supes weekend it is. (god I love the library.)

[darron]

Ah, good choice on All-Star Superman, Fred. The first hardcover is reall good.

[darron]

Now THAT sounds up my alley. SFAS, and Red son are at my library and I requested Kingdom Come from another one. Supes weekend it is. (god I love the library.)

While I personally don't consider Kingdom Come a straight-up Supes story, it is one of my all time favorite stories in any form of entertainment. I LOVE that book.

[itsbecca]

Ah, so that's one that I'm going to gloss over his involvement in. Ah well. Good is good.

[lindseyd]

Is this just a normal preference I need to live with? Or is there something I should be reading that will bring me over?

I don't need to like him, but I just know how much writing can change a character.

I would read "Up, Up, and Away", Superman's One Year Later re-introduction arc. If not the whole thing, at least like the first two or three issues. It really made Clark likeable, at least to me. Plus, the art is Pete Woods, so it's worth it just for that.

[conorkilpatrick]

While I personally don't consider Kingdom Come a straight-up Supes story, it is one of my all time favorite stories in any form of entertainment. I LOVE that book.

Kingdom Come is absolutely a Superman story. It may feature all the heroes in the DCU but it is ultimately about the ideals of one man and why truth and justice are still important in the world today.

Another great Superman story is the The Man of Steel mini-series that rebooted the character after Crisis on Infinite Earths.

I also endorse Superman For All Seasons and Superman: Red Son.

[jimski]

Shave my head and call me Lex, I cannot even deal with Superman. I have written about it at great length once (http://jimski.nopaper.net/2006/03/31/dry-toast-the-motion-picture/) or twice. (http://jimski.nopaper.net/2006/10/24/yay-week-day-2-red-son/)

Having said that, I can add my voice to the Red Son chorus; it takes everything you hate about Superman and makes it awesome. I'll do the super-fans a solid and also recommend "Birthright" by Leinil Yu and a writer I like but can't remember.

[paper]

I tend to agree, but I did find a new fascination with the character when I saw the "Look, Up in the Sky" documentary they put out before the movie last summer.

[kwok_talk]

I haven't been much of a Superman fan growing up, but I really liked All-Star Superman and Kingdom Come

[conorkilpatrick]

I'll do the super-fans a solid and also recommend "Birthright" by Leinil Yu and a writer I like but can't remember.

Mark Waid.

[mastap]

Hitman 34. It's funny, Garth Ennis who very openly hates superheroes, presents exactly why Superman is so important

[benclemons]

The best Superman story I've read is Superman: Sercret Identity by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immonen from a few years ago. It's an elseworld tale about the life story of the Superboy of earth prime.

[mastap]

The best Superman story I've read is Superman: Sercret Identity by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immonen from a few years ago. It's an elseworld tale about the life story of the Superboy of earth prime.

Welcome to the forums

[acomicbookgirl]

The best Superman story I've read is Superman: Sercret Identity by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immonen from a few years ago. It's an elseworld tale about the life story of the Superboy of earth prime.


I like that story too.. Superman: Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow by Alan Moore is another favorite of mine..

[conorkilpatrick]

The best Superman story I've read is Superman: Sercret Identity by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immonen from a few years ago. It's an elseworld tale about the life story of the Superboy of earth prime.

That's a good one too, (http://www.ifanboy.com/archive/pickoftheweek/01142004_superm.html) but it's not about Superboy of Earth prime. It was the inspiration, but it's not him.

Kurt Busiek, the writer of Superman: Secret Identity has stated in the introduction to the collected volume of this series, that his inspiration for this story was the original appearances of Superboy-Prime in DC Comics Presents during the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

[mastap]

I like that story too.. Superman: Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow by Alan Moore is another favorite of mine..

I tend to favor For the man who has everything more, but then again, I got them both in the Alan Moore DC collection, so I don't have to choose:D

[comhcinc]

Kingdom Come is absolutely a Superman story. It may feature all the heroes in the DCU but it is ultimately about the ideals of one man and why truth and justice are still important in the world today.


thank you.

to me kingdom come really is the best story for showing what superman is really about

[jerome]

Me and the comics community don't see eye to eye on Kingdom Come.

[r0blaw]

I am not much of a Superman fan myself. He is just too powerful in my opinion. But that being said, I really enjoy All-Star Superman, and I loved Superman: Red Son. I even have some of the action figures based on it. Nothing like seeing Supes with a big Hammer and Sickle on his chest.

[acomicbookgirl]

I tend to favor For the man who has everything more, but then again, I got them both in the Alan Moore DC collection, so I don't have to choose:D


So do I... ;)

[jimski]

Right on the heels of this discussion, I saw this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rp2f2OcCpQ) and laughed 'til I thought I'd burst.

Mind you, my threshold is pretty low today.

[comhcinc]

what Jimski just linked to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rp2f2OcCpQ


thanks that was funny

[comhcinc]

gawd i just watch the other three. funny stuff


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytqV6GEHW24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av6fWfmugds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvFjo5TTY6c

[mikegraham6]

Those videos are great! course im more of a marvel guy so im a bit biased.
Superman: Secret Identity was my favorite Supes book, but for some reason it really didn't feel like a superman book, it felt like an indy book but with superpowers. it was more about the kid growing up, becoming a man and dealing with his family. as for the other recommendations, they are great but when compared to some of the classic storylines written about other character they don't compare, in my book. i think writers have a real hard time writing superman. i think the DC editorial team will only let them go so far in thier stories because he is such an icon. and the fact that he is so power, really limits the amount of threats that can be presented. the best superman stories i've read have been about the people around superman commenting about him and the awe that comes from his god-like presence. for once i'd just really like to see a great, in continuity superman story. the closest thing i've read has been For all seasons, but thats one story out of almost 90 years of the character! (and i dont even know if thats in continuity). im loving the johns/donner action comics run, but i don't feel it will go down as a classic must have story, until then im keeping my fingers crossed that one day i'll get my Excellent Superman story.

[mister-s]

Another + for Red Son. But I agree that Superman is just too, well, super.

[masherscf]

I can understand if people think that the superman character lacks a certain flavor. But, that's bad writing.

Hating Superman is kinda like hating Hercules or Achellis. Superman is one of the few comic heros that has trancended that genre into an true American myth. Superman appears in every genre of american literature and his story has been told by a thousand voices. It doesn't make any sense to hate that.

[maltese-falcon]

If you don't like Superman, Red Son is great because he's the villain in that one. That's a book where you can read it, hate Superman, and still enjoy it.

[charlesdacriticczar]

I've always loved Superman, he was one of the first super-heroes I read when I was getting into comics in the 3rd grade(along with Batman, Captain America, Spider-man and the X-Men). I've always been drawn to him because he was the ultimate ideal of what a super hero is(to me). I really enjoyed Kingdom Come (who didn't), Secret Identity, and the Kurt Busiek and Geoff Johns- UP, UP, AND AWAY. Death of Superman, the Reign of the Supermen, and the Funeral for a Friend were good. Those stories did a good job capturing why Superman is considered the greatest in the DC universe. Also the first arc of Jeph Loebs SUPERMAN/BATMAN or even the Worlds Finest mini from about 1999 by Karl Kesel & Dave Taylor (don't know if anybody even remembers that). Superman #172(our worlds at war tie-in) by Jeph Loeb and Ed McGuinness. Also Loebs Superman #176 where supes gets all Tony Soprano with a shrink, it might give you some insight into what it "takes" to be a Superman. Plus with some of them being single issues they're cheaper and less involved than a whole entire trade.

[horatio616]

To be honest, I don't find Superman particularly interesting in comic form, but I LOVE him in animated and live-action form. I think the mythological aspects of the character translates better to these two mediums.

[xyzzy]

As someone who really doesn't care for the character, I'll join in the chorus recommending Superman: Secret Identity by Busiek.

In fact, I would say that the Superman character actually works better in an Elseworlds type concept than he does in regular continuity. All of the Superman stories that I thought were decent have been out of continuity. Secret Identity, Red Son, It's a Bird...

[fred]

welcome to the forums charlesdacriticczar

[masherscf]

Superman is not a dark character. I suppose that a troubled or brooding hero would be more interesting.

[cam-]

Nice it seems like most of the best supes stories have been mentioned here already: Red Son, Kingdom Come, heck even a shout out for Birthright (one of my faves)!

I think All Star is probably the best, Morrison has done a fantastic job of telling one-shot stories that feel like definative supes stuff. Plus he feels like an alien in these stories, but maintains a human quality, it's a tough line to walk but Grant has managed it exceptionally.

Also, I know it's legendary and all...but I really enjoy superman in Dark Knight returns...just saying.

[conorkilpatrick]

This is probably the best single issue Superman story I've read... sadly, it was, like, five years ago.

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/action-comics/775-1.jpg

It was Superman up against a thinly veiled version of The Authority and showed why their "cool" was just posturing and what it took to be a real hero. It also showed that, if he wanted to be, Superman could be ****ing scary.

It was a Pick of the Week when it came out, but sadly it was amongst the data we lost when our first server went kablooey.

[cam-]

That issue seems to be on most lists as one of (if not THE) greatest single issue of all time. Sadly I haven't been able to find it anywhere.

[mastap]

That issue seems to be on most lists as one of (if not THE) greatest single issue of all time. Sadly I haven't been able to find it anywhere.

This (http://dccomics.com/graphic_novels/?gn=2415) is the only place I could find it collected, kind of appropriate though

[spiffy]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest a novel. I know, I know, there's no fancy pictures, but It's Superman! (http://www.amazon.com/Its-Superman-Novel-Tom-Haven/dp/0811844358) by Tom De Haven is one of my favorite books. I'm a huge Superman fan though.

It tells the story of Clark Kent growing up during the depression and how he became Superman as well as his first run in with Lex Luthor.

I'm not sure if anyone else has read this (I'd be interested to see if anyone has) but it's a great look at the character and what made him into what he is. It doesn't only focus on Clark, but also a variety of supporting characters.

One thing to note though is the fact that this is not an action novel. It's all about a character driven story. There is some action, but don't go in expecting a blockbuster in novel form.

As for comics, Kingdom Come is probably my favorite interpretation of the man that Superman is. If you can get your hands on it, "Superman: Peace on Earth" is a pretty good story as well, showing the troubles of being super powered but completely powerless.

The thing to remember about Superman is that though he may be physically an alien, when it all comes down to it, he's mentally and emotionally a human.

[diabhol]

Is this just a normal preference I need to live with? Or is there something I should be reading that will bring me over?

I don't need to like him, but I just know how much writing can change a character.

I like the Superman movies (yes, even III and IV). I freakin' love Smallville.

I don't really enjoy Superman comics, so I don't buy them.

My advice? Don't worry about it.


[M]

[cloneboy]

I just dropped Superman, Action Comics and Super/Batman for the same points you mentioned in you post.

"Up, Up and Away" was really good and the last 3 trades of Superman/Batman are worth picking up.

But the last few months of these titles got me asking the same questions.

[kamagurka]

I haven't even read your main post, but I agree with your title. At best, I'm mildly disinterested. At worst, he makes me grind my teeth almost as bad as the Walking Flagstand.
For some reason, I really liked the Adventures of Lois and Clark, though.

[itsbecca]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest a novel. I know, I know, there's no fancy pictures, but It's Superman! (http://www.amazon.com/Its-Superman-Novel-Tom-Haven/dp/0811844358) by Tom De Haven is one of my favorite books. I'm a huge Superman fan though.


THIS is an awesome suggestion. What I'm looking for is not a "troubled or brooding hero" (masherscf) I'm just looking for DEPTH. I can like good guys too, but there does need to be conflict. Superman has always struck me as a flat character, for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Maybe I'm tainted from seeing the old (OLD) animations of him that were basically Intro->Conflict->"It's a bird... it's a plane"->Hooray PROBLEM SOLVED. Basically, what I'm trying to find out is is this model citizen intrinsic to his character or is it just a prejudice due to my particular experience with him.

Anyway, thank you, thank you for all the input. I'll revive the thread after I've read a few and either come happy or ready to battle it out with you Superman fans.

[paper]

I find the concept of Superman very appealing. I think the difficulty is tapping into what makes him so iconic, so very special. Superman is an outsider, and unlike many caped crusaders, his problem isn't being a superhero, surviving to the end of the day. His problem is straddling that line of being a human and being more than a human. He doesn't really belong anywhere, so he must prove himself to this adopted home. But because he's so powerful, he must live up to an impossible benchmark. He must constantly test his limits, without going too far and becoming a God.

To be Superman is to be the lonliest person in the world while still being burdened with the weight of the hopes and dreams of the countless people he has vowed to protect. If he is to uphold justice, he must work within the limits of justice. And when you can so easily break those limits, restraint is a very noble thing. A very difficult thing.

Just because you are blessed with incredible natural ability does not mean you are prepared to use it. It must be terrible to be Superman, to know that every move you make could change the way the world spins. What guilt you'd have to feel to know that you, through no special merit of your own, gained impossible powers, while those you care about could be compared to eggshells. No matter how good they are, how hard they fight, they will never be the mountain you are. And there's nothing you can do to change that, and there's no matter how many times you save them, they're always going to be in danger.

The best Superman stories probably have nothing to do with great accomplishments as a warrior. As in any great story, the real drama is in his choices. In what he has ultimately decided not to become. In the way he deals with the guilt of his own circumstances.

[jgg0610]

I just dropped Superman, Action Comics and Super/Batman for the same points you mentioned in you post.

"Up, Up and Away" was really good and the last 3 trades of Superman/Batman are worth picking up.

But the last few months of these titles got me asking the same questions.
You might want to rethink dropping Superman/Batman, Rucka's on that next.

[conorkilpatrick]

To be Superman is to be the lonliest person in the world while still being burdened with the weight of the hopes and dreams of the countless people he has vowed to protect. If he is to uphold justice, he must work within the limits of justice. And when you can so easily break those limits, restraint is a very noble thing. A very difficult thing.

This is why I loved Superman Returns so much.

Sometimes when I'm daydreaming at work or when I can't sleep I wonder what it would be like to wake up with Superman's abilities and almost immediately I am so overwhelmed with choices and things to do: "I'll have to go here, and fix this, and do that, and of course this, and, and, and, and..." It becomes too much to ponder just in the hypothetical. Were it reality I'm sure for all the good I'd do I'd still be haunted by all the good I didn't. I think that's what is intrinsically interesting about Superman and what, for the most part, the comics totally blow by not writing anything other than Superman punching big robots and aliens.

I've heard that Superman: The Animated Series is excellent as far as Superman stories and portrayals go. I'm excited to jump in and start watching. That might be something to look for, Becca. I'm thinking it will be more emotionally complex than the old (yet excellent) Max Fleischer cartoons.

[comhcinc]

I find the concept of Superman very appealing. I think the difficulty is tapping into what makes him so iconic, so very special. Superman is an outsider, and unlike many caped crusaders, his problem isn't being a superhero, surviving to the end of the day. His problem is straddling that line of being a human and being more than a human. He doesn't really belong anywhere, so he must prove himself to this adopted home. But because he's so powerful, he must live up to an impossible benchmark. He must constantly test his limits, without going too far and becoming a God.

To be Superman is to be the lonliest person in the world while still being burdened with the weight of the hopes and dreams of the countless people he has vowed to protect. If he is to uphold justice, he must work within the limits of justice. And when you can so easily break those limits, restraint is a very noble thing. A very difficult thing.

Just because you are blessed with incredible natural ability does not mean you are prepared to use it. It must be terrible to be Superman, to know that every move you make could change the way the world spins. What guilt you'd have to feel to know that you, through no special merit of your own, gained impossible powers, while those you care about could be compared to eggshells. No matter how good they are, how hard they fight, they will never be the mountain you are. And there's nothing you can do to change that, and there's no matter how many times you save them, they're always going to be in danger.

The best Superman stories probably have nothing to do with great accomplishments as a warrior. As in any great story, the real drama is in his choices. In what he has ultimately decided not to become. In the way he deals with the guilt of his own circumstances.

paper you pegged the character. unfortunely there doesn't seem to be alot of writers up to the task of doing right by the character. i have often thought (and i may get hung for this) that superman (like thor) could be served well by a nonsuper hero writer

[paper]

Sometimes when I'm daydreaming at work or when I can't sleep I wonder what it would be like to wake up with Superman's abilities and almost immediately I am so overwhelmed with choices and things to do: "I'll have to go here, and fix this, and do that, and of course this, and, and, and, and..." It becomes too much to ponder just in the hypothetical. Were it reality I'm sure for all the good I'd do I'd still be haunted by all the good I didn't. I think that's what is intrinsically interesting about Superman and what, for the most part, the comics totally blow by not writing anything other than Superman punching big robots and aliens.

I think a lot of people (including myself up until recently) dislike Superman so much because it's too easy. It's lazy. Superman will always save the day. But the thing is, he doesn't have to. He chooses to. He could be an all-powerful deity, but he's a public servant.

I liked the concept I read about the Superman Returns game (which I understand sucked, but it's the theory I'm talking about) where Metropolis itself has a life meter. Not Superman. At least that's what I'd read. I think that sums it up pretty well. You're not just looking out for yourself, you're looking out for a whole city, and frequently a whole world (and a dimension every so often). It can die all around you, and you'd be alone again.

[itsbecca]

Paper that was brilliant, and that's exactly the angle that can be expounded upon to make him a dynamic character. Stories that do that, I could enjoy reading.

I've heard that Superman: The Animated Series is excellent as far as Superman stories and portrayals go. I'm excited to jump in and start watching. That might be something to look for, Becca. I'm thinking it will be more emotionally complex than the old (yet excellent) Max Fleischer cartoons.

I actually did watch that on and off. I only have a fleeting memory of it, but I'm pretty sure that's where most of my knowledge on superman and some of his adversaries comes from. It never really grabbed me though, I was mostly religiously into Batman and X-men. Although, for whatever reason I wasn't into Spider-man: The Animated Series at the time either; yet, I love the character now. So maybe I'll go back and check it out.

[paper]

Seriously, the next time you go to the comic shop, stop at the Blockbuster nextdoor and see if they have Look, Up in the Sky (http://www.amazon.com/Look-Up-Sky-Amazing-Superman/dp/B000FO0AHY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-1428809-0488915?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1178324037&sr=8-1). I caught it on tv, and liked it enough that I actually bought it on DVD. I think it's impossible to watch that program and come back from it without some kind of respect or admiration for the character.

Before this documentary, I loathed the dude. Now I kind of want to write about him.

[itsbecca]

I saw you mention it before, it's in transit to my library as we speak. (For the umpteenth time... I love libraries.)

[benjy77]

I think that sums it up pretty well. You're not just looking out for yourself, you're looking out for a whole city, and frequently a whole world (and a dimension every so often). It can die all around you, and you'd be alone again.

Has there ever been a Superman story about what he would do if the Earth was destoryed?

[paper]

It'd be interesting as hell.

Sadly, I think the stories we all really want from a Superman book need to take place in an Elseworlds setting. Or in some way out of general continuity.

It'd be perfect territory for a non-comic writer. Because honestly they could mess around all they want, and it wouldn't be any skin off the noses of the fans. Because if it sucks, we can just say it doesn't count anyway.

I really want to read Red Son, and I hope similar projects get put into production.

[benjy77]

What is the name of the else world book in which Superman is found by the Waynes and grows up to become Batman?

Or did I dream that book?

[paper]

What is the name of the else world book in which Superman is found by the Waynes and grows up to become Batman?

Or did I dream that book?


Superman: Speeding Bullets puts Superman in Batman's shoes. Found and adopted by the Waynes and christened Bruce, he sees them murdered in front of him and grows up to be a superpowered Batman.

Thanks for asking this, because it led me to this Wikipedia guide to alternate versions of Superman. (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:XFFGz9xCtaYJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_versions_of_Superman+elseworlds,+clark+k ent,+adopted+by+waynes&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=safari)

[fred]

Red Son kicks serious ass

[keithm]

What strikes me as really interesting about this thread is that almost all of the stories recommended are either Elseworlds, or stories about young Superman.

This supports my thoery on the Man o' Steel. He's not an interesting character. He's an ideal. I really don't care about him as a person. I mean, honestly, would anyone care if DC decreed that Clark Kent would never appear on page again?

Does this mean that he can't be interesting? Of course not. He just has to be written in the right way. He has to be put in strange circumstances and see if his ideal will still be upheld, ala Kingdom Come or Red Son. Or he needs to interact with other characters, and focus on their reactions to him. This is why he's usually great in team books. The sad truth is that most writers seem content to simply have him fight a giant robot or super-strong alien, which is why 90% of Super-stories fall flat on their faces.

[paper]

I mean, honestly, would anyone care if DC decreed that Clark Kent would never appear on page again?



::raises hand::

[keithm]

Seriously? You're interested in Clark as a character? Why?

Also, does Clark write stories about himself? Seems like that would violite all sorts of ethical and objectivity rules.

[conorkilpatrick]

This supports my thoery on the Man o' Steel. He's not an interesting character. He's an ideal. I really don't care about him as a person.

That has nothing to do with the character and everything to do with the writers and the editorial mandates. Elseworlds stories take the shackles off the writers and allow them to write interesting stories. It's not that the character is bad it's that the corporation won't let them do anything too extreme to the "real" Superman.

I mean, honestly, would anyone care if DC decreed that Clark Kent would never appear on page again?

I would.

[conorkilpatrick]

Also, does Clark write stories about himself? Seems like that would violite all sorts of ethical and objectivity rules.

It's no different than Peter Parker taking pictures of Spider-Man.

[keithm]

That has nothing to do with the character and everything to do with the writers and the editorial mandates. Elseworlds stories take the shackles off the writers and allow them to write interesting stories. It's not that the character is bad it's that the corporation won't let them do anything too extreme to the "real" Superman.



Yeah I guess you have a good point there. But still, I don't think that Superman is an interesting character unless you put him in extreme siuations. Whether or not it's due to DC editorial or not, the character's day-today status quo is just boring.

[fred]

Seriously? You're interested in Clark as a character? Why?

Also, does Clark write stories about himself? Seems like that would violite all sorts of ethical and objectivity rules.

Seriously. The dude can FLY and jump buildings. It seems odd that your objection would be to journalistic integrity violations.

[paper]

As long as he doesn't write editorials and just sticks to objective news stories, I'm cool with it. But isn't Lois assigned to all the Supes scoops anyway?

[paper]

Yeah I guess you have a good point there. But still, I don't think that Superman is an interesting character unless you put him in extreme siuations. Whether or not it's due to DC editorial or not, the character's day-today status quo is just boring.

His day to day life is pobably more interesting than our most exciting.

I think pathos is a little more interesting than flat out action anyway.

[keithm]

It's no different than Peter Parker taking pictures of Spider-Man.


I would say that it is, because Peter sells them to the Bugle, and knows that they're gonna be used in an article slamming him. The Daily Planet regualrly publishes articles glorifying Supes. And while you're right, and Peter probably isn't being wholly ethical, the notion of begrudgingly selling picture of yourself to someone who hates you comes off a lot better than Clark writing articles about how awesome he is.

[conorkilpatrick]

I would say that it is, because Peter sells them to the Bugle, and knows that they're gonna be used in an article slamming him. The Daily Planet regualrly publishes articles glorifying Supes. And while you're right, and Peter probably isn't being wholly ethical, the notion of begrudgingly selling picture of yourself to someone who hates you comes off a lot better than Clark writing articles about how awesome he is.

Unless you are awesome. Then it's just objective reporting.

[keithm]

Seriously. The dude can FLY and jump buildings. It seems odd that your objection would be to journalistic integrity violations.

Well not when the character is mostly known for having high morals and being completely ethical.

[fred]

he can FLY

[paper]

He's not writing about how awesome he is. He's writing objectively about what he's done. And it's not like he requests the Superman stories. He probably avoids them.

And since he's never there at the same time anyway....

[keithm]

First, in the DCU Supes is probably more respected for his unflinching morality than anything else, and I think that it just tarnishes that a bit. Second, isn't one of the major themes in a lot of Superman stories that being able to fly doesn't put him above other people?

[fred]

My position in this the silliest argument ever is that you're looking too deeply into this. If you believe that a man can fly, you should be able to believe that he can faithfully report upon himself or that it doesn't even matter either way.

[keithm]

My position in this the silliest argument ever is that you're looking too deeply into this. If you believe that a man can fly, you should be able to believe that he can faithfully report upon himself or that it doesn't even matter either way.

Oh I know. I don't genuinely care one way or another. I'm just bored and like arguing...

[fred]

fair enough.

[paper]

I always thought the other big problem with Superman was that he didn't have a great rogues gallery. I mean Lex is great, Brainiac can be fun, but he's tough to nail down.

I think a lot of Batman's appeal comes from his villains. His only rival in that respect is probably Spider-Man, and even then it's no contest.

[comhcinc]

http://www.autographcity.co.uk/catalog/images/zod.JPG

[paper]

I meant to include Zod. But then food came, distracting me.

Food. Kneel before Food.

[itsbecca]

Unless you are awesome. Then it's just objective reporting.

This was absolutley hysterical. The sort of situations this conjures in my mind just kills me.

[cam-]

I find the concept of Superman very appealing. I think the difficulty is tapping into what makes him so iconic, so very special. Superman is an outsider, and unlike many caped crusaders, his problem isn't being a superhero, surviving to the end of the day. His problem is straddling that line of being a human and being more than a human. He doesn't really belong anywhere, so he must prove himself to this adopted home. But because he's so powerful, he must live up to an impossible benchmark. He must constantly test his limits, without going too far and becoming a God.

To be Superman is to be the lonliest person in the world while still being burdened with the weight of the hopes and dreams of the countless people he has vowed to protect. If he is to uphold justice, he must work within the limits of justice. And when you can so easily break those limits, restraint is a very noble thing. A very difficult thing.

Just because you are blessed with incredible natural ability does not mean you are prepared to use it. It must be terrible to be Superman, to know that every move you make could change the way the world spins. What guilt you'd have to feel to know that you, through no special merit of your own, gained impossible powers, while those you care about could be compared to eggshells. No matter how good they are, how hard they fight, they will never be the mountain you are. And there's nothing you can do to change that, and there's no matter how many times you save them, they're always going to be in danger.

The best Superman stories probably have nothing to do with great accomplishments as a warrior. As in any great story, the real drama is in his choices. In what he has ultimately decided not to become. In the way he deals with the guilt of his own circumstances.

By Jove Paper, I think you've got it!!!

Interestingly, when Jim Lee And Brian Azzarello did their run on Superman (For Tomorrow I believe), Brian, in interviews often spoke of the character in these terms.

In practice though Superman came off as an ineffectual whiner.

[itsbecca]

Well I've still got some reading to do, but I thought I'd check in with my thoughts so far.

Superman For All Seasons
I really enjoyed this book. Although, I have to say this was kind of a cheat of a suggestion. Maybe. I haven't entirely decided. While the subject matter is Superman, the narrators are the characters in his life. Since one of my largest problem with Superman as a character is that I cannot relate to him in any way whatsoever, this book gets around it. I can relate to love, spite, confusion and all of these things that the very real people in Superman's life feel. On that note the Lana Lang section was just brilliant, it caught me off guard, but still made so much sense emotionally. Very well written.

In short, great book, but did not improve my thoughts on Superman.

Superman: Up up and Away [don't read if you've not read this]
This was the book that made me worry there was just little hope. It was well written, it showed Superman being fearless and... perfect even without his powers. Which just... made me care all the less. So everything doesn't just work out for him because he has alien powers. Everything works out for him because he's better than us. And when situation does require those powers, well of course they come back. Just enough, just when he needs them. Completley impervious as always. Sigh.

Superman: Red Son
I tried to soldier through, but I couldn't even finish this one. Elseworlds are good, great... but can we have a story please? Can it not just be entirely filled with this cheeky cheeky, oh look how I to encorporate all these things whether they make sense or not. Just because it's this other reality doesn't mean it has to be so clever. Also, so much of the book was this sort of introduction to this other world that I'd have to say the plot was hardly even discernable. I don't know how so many people recommended it. It almost disturbs me how much I disliked this, because I'm rather fond of Mark Millar.

It's funny though there's a particular scene where Pyotr, angry that Superman is unwittingly pushing him out of his heirship, is firing at an old scarecrow. The head comes off and Superman goes and puts it back on. This happens several times during their conversation, each time Superman fixing it. I almost enjoyed because of how perfectly it just encapsulates everything for me. He makes everything right; he does everything right; he fixes everything. The world is not perfect, but he is and he works to make it so. He's so... unnatural. He can't even understand that Pyotr just needs to be angry, he's so oblivious. It's almost like I'm racist against him... he's not one of us! It's strange. I feel almost wrong.

One line I did like was where... Oh Stalin I think explains Superman running off to save someone by saying, "Well what's he supposed to do, Captain? Stand there and grin like an idiot when he can hear people screaming for their lives?" Which hits on Paper's thoughts. Brilliant line.

Anyway... more next week probably.

[drwally]

Katie on CBQ had a really good theory on Superman, which explains the problems with the character making it so difficult to write, and completely matches 90% of the recommendations and comments people have made here.

There are only four Superman stories that can really be told:

1) Origins of Superman (Whether Krypton or Kansas)
2) Death of Superman (or, World without Superman, i.e. Hope as in the film, or Superman without super powers)
3) Crazy Superman (Red Son, lead in to Infinite Crisis, any Red Kryptonite story)

and

4) I forget...maybe Superman/Clark Kent dichotomy, Super famous but Super alone, which is the human/alien thing, or the superpowers/super responsiblity thing. Maybe Kingdom Come falls here, but this is definitely the hardest to define category. This is where Paper's analysis falls, no doubt, whereas the above categories have lead to so many Elseworlds stories.

Any story that plays up the supporting cast of Superman seems to work well, but any story that plays up how all powerful he is and can defeat anything tends to be rubbish. Kryptonite? One of the oldest jokes in comics that comes from making the character too darn powerful in the first place.

Modern Superman in Post Modern America:

My own take on the character is this: As a completely "Modern" character, understanding why people have a problem with him makes it easy to understand why we say we live in a "Post-Modern" age. -- he is definitely the American "Ubermensch" created and developed when this country was in love with the promise of Modernity, and the promise of Modern Progress to Perfection to make the world safe for Truth, Justice, and the American Way, and you can't just drop that last one and ignore where this character comes from. Even though in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, as he steadily aquired more fantastic powers, the way he used those powers in the comic books was often an excuse to show off what modern science might someday be able to accomplish. Belief in his perfection was America's belief in it's own perfection.

These days, we're not so sure of our perfection, so people don't see Superman as relevant, or have real big problems writing the character. The promises of the Modern Era have ended up being the disappointments of the Post Modern Era, so in that way, Superman is a very useful guide post. I think in Kingdom Come, he plays that role, or tries to walk it, and that's what makes that a great Superman story.

Paper is totally correct in saying that Superman's boundless powers and abilities have for nearly 70 years provided lazy writers with an excuse to write themselves out of a corner, in a way that's impossible with much less powerful characters. And so many have done so, that's loaded the character with decades of baggage that's hard to refresh. Byrne tried to "power down" the character, but it didn't last long.

What I find fascinating, is that Batman is just as old as Superman, is just as much a product of 1938, but of a different type. Batman is a definite descendent of The Shadow (dates from about 1930), where the world is not assumed to be a safe place that can be made perfect at all. The current hot writers have all played with material as old as the pulps (Rucka and Brubaker on Gotham, Brubaker on Cap, Bendis on Daredevil, etc.) and it's been just as fresh now as it was in the 1930s and 40s. Superman not so much.

Superman maybe an odd remnant of a certain way of seeing the world from 70 years ago, but it's not the only way of seeing the world from 70 years ago.

Finally, you could make a list of Marvel characters, who have been powered up too much, and suffer the same problems... too much Modern Promise, not enough depth of character (Looking at you, Tony Stark).

[mastap]

I always thought the other big problem with Superman was that he didn't have a great rogues gallery. I mean Lex is great, Brainiac can be fun, but he's tough to nail down.

I think a lot of Batman's appeal comes from his villains. His only rival in that respect is probably Spider-Man, and even then it's no contest.

Brainic is used so sparingly and done so poorly, which is a shame because he really should be awsome, the whole thing about his first appearence was that Superman, couldn't touch him, he couldn't even move him, he defied Superman's powers simply by standing still. He's this brilliant alien who has his goals and has already figured out ho to stop anything from ****ing with his plans. Throw in his wierd collector/scientist motivations and shrinking fetish, you have a terrifyingly awosme villain.

Unfortunatly, he hasn't been used well in decades, my theory is that they should just bring back the awsome metal version, 'cause everything else pales in comparison.

[mastap]

I always thought the other big problem with Superman was that he didn't have a great rogues gallery. I mean Lex is great, Brainiac can be fun, but he's tough to nail down.

I think a lot of Batman's appeal comes from his villains. His only rival in that respect is probably Spider-Man, and even then it's no contest.

Oh and Mr. Mxyzptlk, which is just fun

[paper]

I picked up Red Son today at my lcs. I almost got All Star Superman too, but I think I'm gonna wait for the paperback.

[xyzzy]

Brainic is used so sparingly and done so poorly, which is a shame because he really should be awsome, the whole thing about his first appearence was that Superman, couldn't touch him, he couldn't even move him, he defied Superman's powers simply by standing still. He's this brilliant alien who has his goals and has already figured out ho to stop anything from ****ing with his plans. Throw in his wierd collector/scientist motivations and shrinking fetish, you have a terrifyingly awosme villain.

Unfortunatly, he hasn't been used well in decades, my theory is that they should just bring back the awsome metal version, 'cause everything else pales in comparison.

I'm a big fan of the version from Superman: The Animated Series.

[mastap]

I'm a big fan of the version from Superman: The Animated Series.

yeah I liked it too, but my favorate has always been the pre-crisis version.

But the smallville brainiac that was based on the cartoon, which was based on the comic... wasn't such a fan.

[itsbecca]

I picked up Red Son today at my lcs. I almost got All Star Superman too, but I think I'm gonna wait for the paperback.

Well I'm flattered that my awful review made you go out and buy it. Looks like I've really made my mark around here.

[paper]

I'm on an Elseworld's kick at the moment, and honestly I was really curious to see why it was drawing the mixed reactions.

If I do end up agreeing with you, Becca, I will make note of it and acknowledge my stupidity in my sig.

[itsbecca]

I'm on an Elseworld's kick at the moment, and honestly I was really curious to see why it was drawing the mixed reactions.

If I do end up agreeing with you, Becca, I will make note of it and acknowledge my stupidity in my sig.

Sure, sure, we'll see. But even if you do end up liking it I would enjoy reading your review. There was a lot of support for it but no one really said why.

[paper]

There was a lot of support for it but no one really said why.


There's your cue, clowns.

[darron]

It's very good.







What....?

[paper]

One day I'm gonna learn you to articulate, boy.

[darron]

And one day Fred will put a Humberto Ramos book on his pull-list. The day will come....it's just a long ways away.

[fred]

I am not need no book lurnin'

[acomicbookgirl]

That's a site I want to see..

[drwally]

I am not need no book lurnin'

I think the correct phrase is:

"I DON'T need no book learnin'"

Fred clearly failed Education Deprived Idiomatic English Class. And where was Superman then, huh??? Huh??

[fred]

see that? I can't even pretend to be uneducated correctly.

[drwally]

see that? I can't even pretend to be uneducated correctly.

As an English teacher in Japan, dealing with variations on the helping verb is a daily (hourly) thing I do.

"I am not need no book lurning" is a construction I see all the time (even hourly), but usually from middle class, "well educated" adult Japanese people. You could write Hiro and Ando's dialogue on Heroes...

[fanboys-strike-back]

We were talking about this on our podcast and we don't think that there really has been a definitive Superman story. Eric said he closest choice was probably Superman for all seasons while I would have to go with the death and return of superman. Both great stories but still not definitive.

What would you guys say is the definitive superman story, I'm very interested to see what you guys think.

[infernorhythm]

I'd call "Up, Up, and Away" definitive.

[big-doze]

"What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way?"

[six-gun]

I'd call "Up, Up, and Away" definitive.

I second that vote, great, great story that gets to the heart o who superman is.

Also, What Ever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? by Alan Moore is supposed to be great, I have it in trade but haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

[fred]

I'm almost certain that we've done this already but I'm too tired to search for the thread.

edit: I worked up the energy. It's here: http://revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5813&highlight=superman

[paper]

"What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way?"

Is this collected anywhere? I was reading up on it, and it sounds really good.

EDIT: Nevermind; it's in JLA: Elite (http://www.amazon.com/Justice-League-Elite/dp/1401204813/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0588757-0125500?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184766611&sr=8-1) and Superman: The Greatest Stories Ever Told. (http://www.amazon.com/Superman-Greatest-Stories-Ever-Told/dp/1401203396/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-0588757-0125500?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184766490&sr=8-1)

[sullivan85]

If Superman really was a flat uninteresting character, I wouldn't think there would be so much discussion as to whether he actually IS a good character.

That being said, he certainly can be a crap character in the wrong hands because his abilities make him all powerful. It takes a skilled writer to make an interesting Superman story.

[jimski]

I'm not sure the discussion proves much one way or the other; it seems to be about whether the good Superman stories are the exception or the rule. ("Alan Moore is so talented, he can write a good Superman story!" etc.)

[paper]

I got Superman for All Seasons and Up, Up and Away.

Last night at 100th episode after party:

Josh cornered me (literally; he backed me against a wall)

"We're gonna write our Superman."
"Okay."
"Okay."
"What do you want to do?"
"Our Superman."
"When should our story take place?"
"Now. Right...NOW."
"....here?"

[kahunablair]

I got Superman for All Seasons and Up, Up and Away.


I have got to pick those up. It seems like I'm the only one that hasn't.

[six-gun]

I got Superman for All Seasons and Up, Up and Away.

Last night at 100th episode after party:

Josh cornered me (literally; he backed me against a wall)

"We're gonna write our Superman."
"Okay."
"Okay."
"What do you want to do?"
"Our Superman."
"When should our story take place?"
"Now. Right...NOW."
"....here?"

I think Humberto Ramos should draw it :p

[kahunablair]

I think Humberto Ramos should draw it :p

I'll bust it out in MSPaint.

[labor_days]

I'll bust it out in MSPaint.

Whoa, whoa. If they wanted art that ostentatious and gaudy they would not have tapped Ramos for the project. Not every comic needs "realism", Kahuna.

[zombox]

Well, I have to say I'm generally in the same place. Superman is big, powerful and dull as he is written in his 'day to day' comic. I often feel the same way about Batman and Wonder Woman. All three characters lack much human empathy and are very hard to relate to.

However! Each character, when written with the conceit of epic power in mind can be transcendant. The best written Superman ever was Kingdom Come. If you don't like Superman in taht story then you will never like Superman. Batman is defined, for me and most others, by the Dark Knight Returns. Wonder Woman I've never really enjoyed a lot, though I was kind of interested in her series reboot recently - until that written bombed out and a new one took over in three issues (oh, and the new writer wasn't very good). I think DC's 'Big Three' need to be written in very specific stories that are almost always out of continuity due to the need to maintain a status quo. They are character that could, and probably should, dramatically alter the world around them - but they don't. That leaves me feeling flacid as far as their day to day stories go.

I think this would be a mildly relevant place to ask something I've been thinking about since I joined here...

I hate Superman. His character at it's core just truly does not interest me in any way. With his goodness, perfection, abundance of power and I somewhat despise his position of lordship in the DCU. I have enjoyed stories he is a part of, but it was dispite him and I generally bit my tongue through his involvement . I also do enjoy some of his villians, which is what mainly inspires this question.

Is this just a normal preference I need to live with? Or is there something I should be reading that will bring me over?

I don't need to like him, but I just know how much writing can change a character.

[paper]

I dunno. I like Superman, but I'm not at all a fan of Kingdom Come. Maybe after the next JSA though...

[patio]

I'm not a huge fan of Superman's recent comics. But if you really want to understand who he is, I think you need to lay a groundwork:

1. The Superman Dailies (1940's comic strips; most of the villains are mobsters and crooked politicians)
2. Superman The Movie and Superman II
3. Superman (TV Show with George Reeve - you don't have to see all of these. just rent one dvd and you'll get the flavor)

Then you can start to add in some more modern interpretations:

Byrne's Man of Steel
The Nail
Superman for All Seasons
World's Finest #1-12
Superman/Batman (one of the early runs with Loeb and McGuiness)

Personally, I really have a soft spot for Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes (the original run circa 1970s). Again, these are not all gems, but if you get the chance to pick up a few issues, it will give you some back story and insight into who (at least who I think) Superman is.

[esophagus]

I think Superman is obviously one of the biggest forces in comics, which leads to him getting great treatment. I hate the idea of him being basically all powerful, but without him, we'd definitely be missing out on some great stuff.

Superman: For All Seasons
Superman: Up, Up, and Away
Superman: Birthright

The list goes on.

[mikegraham6]

I think Superman is obviously one of the biggest forces in comics, which leads to him getting great treatment. I hate the idea of him being basically all powerful, but without him, we'd definitely be missing out on some great stuff.

Superman: For All Seasons
Superman: Up, Up, and Away
Superman: Birthright

The list goes on.

Busiek's Superman: Secret Identity is sorely lacking on that list. It's the best Superman story I've ever read...

[esophagus]

Busiek's Superman: Secret Identity is sorely lacking on that list. It's the best Superman story I've ever read...I hadn't read it, or heard much about it. I'll definitely be looking into it. The pile of books to buy with this new discoutn of mine just won't stop adding up.

[mikegraham6]

I hadn't read it, or heard much about it. I'll definitely be looking into it. The pile of books to buy with this new discoutn of mine just won't stop adding up.

it's kinda more of a "Superboy Prime" type story, but it's the most human Superman story i've ever read (and yes i know that sounds wierd when he's an alien, but just read the story;))

[esophagus]

it's kinda more of a "Superboy Prime" type story, but it's the most human Superman story i've ever read (and yes i know that sounds wierd when he's an alien, but just read the story;))
Makes perfect sense. It's actually what I loved about Superman: For Tomorrow. While not in the realm of being my favorite Supes story, I loved the emotion and humanity it added to the character.

[smaktakula]

I've never been a great fan of Superman. As several people have noted, good Superman stories are hard to find.

My favorite Superman story is from the mid-1980's: Alan Moore's two-part Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow?.

When it was decided that John Byrne would be relaunching Superman, Alan Moore was given the task of writing "The Last Superman Story"--an ending for Supes in Action and Superman. This was an "imaginary story" (what they used to call non-canon stories before they had "Elseworlds").

The setup for the story involves an interview with Lois Lane, who is now married, on the 10th anniversary of the disappearance of Superman. Lois recounts Superman's heroic last days, and tells a story that's brimming with action and emotion. Perhaps the most touching scene is when Krypto comes back from space after several years, to stand by Superman in his most desperate hour.

This story was available as a Trade a few years ago. I've seen it most recently in the DC Stories of Alan Moore trade.

Great story. I've yet to see its equal for Superman.

[esophagus]

One of the books I bought at work today was "DC Universe: The Stories of Alan Moore" after Smak said it contained the Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? story. The story sounded good, so I bought it. I just opened it up and realized it also has The Killing Joke. I just paid a few more dollars than I would have for a copy of The Killing Joke for that, and about ten other stories.

[jonathand-gordon]

One of the books I bought at work today was "DC Universe: The Stories of Alan Moore" after Smak said it contained the Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? story. The story sounded good, so I bought it. I just opened it up and realized it also has The Killing Joke. I just paid a few more dollars than I would have for a copy of The Killing Joke for that, and about ten other stories.

I picked that up as well. It is one of the best values I have ever seen on shelves. I am currently on trade 2 of no man's land but ight dive back into the stories of alan moore again this weekend.

[paper]

Ok, gumshoes.

I need some help.

To your knowledge, is there anything written about Jor-el (Superman's dad) that takes place prior to the destruction of Krypton? Anything about how he decided on earth, or what he knew about it? I imagine that there is a lot of mixed continuity.

I've been thinking about that Superman story I always wanted to write, and I thought, well, maybe my Superman story isn't about Superman at all. Maybe it's about his dad.

[kahunablair]

It looks like there are a crapload of different Jor-El version. At least 2 since the last reboots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jor-El

[esophagus]

Neither of them are really stories on their own though, so much as little bits of information. That's my guess anyways, considering one of them is said to be Birthright. I don't think a Jorel story has ever stuck with much information past the whole sticking him in the ship thing.

I recommend picking up Stories of Alan Moore. In one story Superman is sucked into a world where his wildest dreams are true. It is, of course, about life on Krypton had it not been destroyed. Jorel is only there for a few pages, if that, but it's the only time I've seen the man given a personally, and it really showcases how two such extreme personalities (Jor-El and Clark) would clash. I liked it.

[euchre0]

One single issue i really enjoy is Action Comics #775, by Joe Kelly and Doug Mahnke, I believe. The premise is that a group of super-powered "anti-heroes" start zipping around the world saving people but also killing tons of people in brutal ways in the process. This group, The Elite, were to represent the growing popularity in harsher superhero stories such as the Authority. Superman has to deal with the fact that The Elite are more popular and they publically challenge him to defend his place at the top of the superhero world. Really a great story you should be able to find for cheap in the back issue bins. I have several copies that I give to people when they start talking about how Superman is too perfect and boring of a character.

[labor_days]

Action Comics #775 was a POW way back. Good issue.

[euchre0]

Dang! I quickly scanned the first three pages of the thread before posting, but now that I've posted, I see Conor beat me to it...by about 6 months. Really wish I could read that pick of the week!

[jbeck]

Aftermath : The Four Horsemen is a current ( and In-continuity )title that has a great portrayal of Supes alongside Bruce and Diana; it also has scary new villians.

[kahunablair]

Wow. I'm reading Superman For All Seasons right now.
I'm only in the first section, and I'm blown away. This is the Superman Story!

This is going to be my new background. It embodies pretty much everything that Superman is in one image.
http://img40.picoodle.com/img/img40/5/11/10/f_superm_da006fd.jpg

[six-gun]

Aftermath : The Four Horsemen is a current ( and In-continuity )title that has a great portrayal of Supes alongside Bruce and Diana; it also has scary new villians.
Kieth Giffen does a great job writing classic characters

[mastap]

Ok, gumshoes.

I need some help.

To your knowledge, is there anything written about Jor-el (Superman's dad) that takes place prior to the destruction of Krypton? Anything about how he decided on earth, or what he knew about it? I imagine that there is a lot of mixed continuity.

I've been thinking about that Superman story I always wanted to write, and I thought, well, maybe my Superman story isn't about Superman at all. Maybe it's about his dad.

There was a one issue story in Starman (I'm thinking issue 50, but I may be wrong) that had Jack Knight meeting Jor-El on Krypton and evetually telling him about earth

[paper]

Oooh, interesting. Thanks.

I can't wait to try my hand at that Jor-El story.

[bogotoko]

What's killing the Superman mythology is every month a new Kryptonian is found. Not counting Supergirl and Krypto, but for years the only Kryptonian was Superman. Now all of a sudden you have "foster son Chris" and Karsta Wor-Ul (aka Kristen Wells).

What kept Superman sorta human was his feeling of being the only one left of his race.

[conorkilpatrick]

What's killing the Superman mythology is every month a new Kryptonian is found. Not counting Supergirl and Krypto, but for years the only Kryptonian was Superman. Now all of a sudden you have "foster son Chris" and Karsta Wor-Ul (aka Kristen Wells).

What kept Superman sorta human was his feeling of being the only one left of his race.

Just ignore the ones that you don't like.

[six-gun]

Ok, gumshoes.

I need some help.

To your knowledge, is there anything written about Jor-el (Superman's dad) that takes place prior to the destruction of Krypton? Anything about how he decided on earth, or what he knew about it? I imagine that there is a lot of mixed continuity.

I've been thinking about that Superman story I always wanted to write, and I thought, well, maybe my Superman story isn't about Superman at all. Maybe it's about his dad.

Yes (http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Krypton-Kevin-Anderson/dp/006134074X), but the reviews don't look great. But hey, you kind of have to read it if you want to go through with that script