View Full Version : Creator Catfights...
luthor
08-20-2007, 11:23 PM
One of my favorite things about CBR's Lying in the Gutters (http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/archive.cgi?column=litg) is the frequent inclusion of creator web fights. This week the creator's are Rags Morales and, iFanboy message board favorite, Rob Liefield.
This web fight might have my all time favorite put down.
Rags: And as far as being me? I'm sure you'd lop off your right hand at the wrist to be me. If you knew what a wrist looks like.
Enjoy! (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?p=4226994)
esophagus
08-20-2007, 11:45 PM
This is hilarious. I'm definitely going to have to look for the rest of these creator fights. How low is this.
six-gun
08-20-2007, 11:59 PM
I now like Rags Morales even more
mikegraham6
08-21-2007, 12:03 AM
great thread Luthor!
Didn't John Byrne also get into a tussle with Peter David once?
in fact didn't John Byrne get into a fight with just about everyone?
six-gun
08-21-2007, 12:12 AM
great thread Luthor!
Didn't John Byrne also get into a tussle with Peter David once?
in fact didn't John Byrne get into a fight with just about everyone?
Yeah, he bit off my ear once.
horatio616
08-21-2007, 12:15 AM
Personally, I'd love it if Rob got to kick the ass of all these people who have nothing better to do than run around message boards and badmouth him. Sure, we've all made jokes from time-to-time, but the Liefeld jokes have become a tired cliche.
Not that I think Rags is doing that, but when one comic artist tells another "I'm not to be toyed with", I can't help but laugh.
Holy shit. Thanks Luthor. This made my day. The wrist thing .... priceless
paper
08-21-2007, 02:04 AM
Met Rags at WizardWorld Philly. He's a class act. Very high on my "sketch hunting" list (he'd reached his daily quota by the time I got to his table).
esophagus
08-21-2007, 05:14 AM
Wow. I read the whole thread, past Rags and Rob, and I can't believe how stubborn and grumpy everyone seems. I can't believe Rob was the one let back either. That's bad moderating. "You're the retard" sounds like taunting to me.
mikegraham6
08-21-2007, 02:17 PM
not to sound like a kiss ass or anything, but reading the newsarama boards makes me appreciate this place more
horatio616
08-21-2007, 02:20 PM
How about Frank Miller v. Alan Moore v. Topeka Board of Education?
Taken from wiki:
Renowned comics writer Alan Moore has criticized 300 as historically inaccurate, with particular reference to the characters' attitudes towards homosexuality:
There was just one particular line in it where one of the Spartan soldiers — I'll remind you, this is Spartans that we're talking about — one of them was talking disparagingly about the Athenians, and said, ‘Those boy-lovers.' You know, I mean, read a book, Frank. The Spartans were famous for something other than holding the bridge at Thermopylae, they were quite famous for actually enforcing man-boy love amongst the ranks as a way of military bonding. That specific example probably says more about Frank's grasp of history than it does about his grasp of homosexuality, so I'm not impugning his moral situation there. I'm not saying it was homophobic; just wasn't very well researched.
Miller, in the letters page of the original series, admits the inaccuracy, and angrily defends it. He insists that the Spartans were not scholars themselves, and that the offending passage was intended to portray the Spartans as hypocrites. The Spartans, he argued, so maligned the Athenians that any Athenian action was worthy of scorn. Miller demands that their hypocrisy is a character flaw, but not unrealistic. Beyond that, the majority of evidence suggests that the institution of pederasty as the Spartans practiced was chaste, which did contrast the more sexual varient the Athenians practiced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_%28comics%29
luthor
03-03-2008, 08:42 PM
From Today's Lying in the Gutter (http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13):
"Over at WizardWorld, Grant Morrison is quoted as saying, "We're going to kick their ass so hard. [Laughs] Marvel had its big year last year with 'Civil War,' which was an amazing event and really changed the Marvel landscape. With 'Secret Invasion,' we've seen the Skrull thing before. We've seen it in the Kree-Skrull War, again in series like the Fantastic Four. They re kind of resting this year. [Laughs] So if you re a Marvel fan, come over here. There s only one book to read this summer. It's simple."
Standard PR bravado. But Brian Bendis wasn't having it, in a thread now deleted, replying "knowing what everyone in the industry knows about what's going on with 'his' book behind the scenes, even jokingly, he really should keep his yap el shutto."
Read to be as an implication that Morrison isn't writing the book, or certainly not on the level being credited.
Bendis later edited the post to add "guys calm down. he shit talked. so what? i thought it was a little beneath him too, but, hey, its comics. he's having a row, as they say.
"same shit gail does all the time. they must teach a class in it over there."
And referring to the old Grant Morrison underwear modelling photos posted on the thread, "and although i pulled a hammy holding in the jokes goofing on that picture, i say let it ride.
"in 2012 when final crisis is done, we'll see what's what."
So, is Final Crisis late as well? Or is that a reference to the end of the Mayan calendar, signaling the end of the world, often used by Morrison in his work?
Cue Gail.
"Yes, you're right, Brian, no one from Marvel ever bashes DC, well stated, sir! Well, except for all the times they do.
"Why did I have to be dragged into this? I defend Marvel and Joey CONSTANTLY. I think I've actually had a total of two serious complaints about Marvel; one, that the early MU females were terrible characters (which has long since been made up by the X-females and others), and the stuff about the 'crazy bitches.' I defy you to find a DC creator who has said more positive things about Marvel recently.
"Other than that, I just gave an interview praising a bunch of Marvel books, I start threads about new Marvel books I'm loving, I mention my love of you, Bru, Beland, Reed, Fraction, and Millar all the time.
"Are you guys REALLY that sensitive? I tease here because everyone teases everyone here. Does anyone here ACTUALLY think Spider-man is gay? Spider-man is one of my all-time favorites. He is at MOST promiscuously bi with a hamster fetish.
"For the record, everyone knows you're not a top professional by accident and that you're not going to turn in some retread story. And I'm pretty sure Final Crisis is going to kick a ton of ass no matter what you're implying is going on behind the scenes.
"I'm looking forward to both.
"They must teach it over there, sheesh, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard DC bashing here or at a con from Marvel guys, I'd have a lot of nickels. Maybe a bushel. Or a peck.
"What happened to our senses of humor, seriously?"
Followed by:
"The weird thing here is, I'm actually looking forward to both of these crossovers and I've had very little interest in any of the big crossovers for a while at either company. They just didn't spark my interest, somehow.
"But I'm all up for Secret Invasion. I love the b-movie promo stuff. I am not a fan of the Skrulls, but done right, which Brian will do because he's great at that stuff, I think the paranoia and infiltration stuff will be big fun. It sounds right up my alley and it's the first Marvel crossover in a while I'm going to be following very closely.
"And Final Crisis is Grant, whom I think is simply a genius. I've kept away from spoilers as much as possible, but I've heard him talk about it at length and it really does seem like an epic in the sense that the scope is just massive. He sold me with the idea that it starts with Anthro (the first boy on Earth) and ends with Kamandi (the last boy on Earth). I think it's gonna be steaming hot.
"I'm willing to bet that these are the most entertaining crossover books in a long while.
"The readers win."
After pages of commentary, Bendis kicked off again
"holy fuck!! this is the dumbest thread full of stupid on the entire internet!!! and that is saying something.
"you see the fucking smiley faces on my original posts?? it means i'm goofing around!!! like grant seemingly was!!
"see how i have no smiley faces here?? means i'm not!!
"who gives a fucking shit about any of this!! what does it have to do with comics or storytelling or art or fun!!
"gail, go outside, you're losing your mind!! you're on here 24/7 taking shots. i mention you once and we get a lecture. you ARE dave sim. so get some air!!!
"comics are fun!! they are art!! none of this thread is.
"go read the killer. its fucking fantastic.
"and if you were el douchy enough to cut and paste my other posts, minus smileys, on other boards, to see if you can start shit or something.... time to do some soul searching, i would think."
LITG is proud to preserve all text... Gail concluded with
"Yikes. The Bendis over-reaction train keeps a'rollin' on!
""Taking shots 24/7?"
"Have you gone nuts?
"Yikes."
And on that suggestion of mental illness, the thread was gone, to be remembered only in clipped smiley-less comments on Newsarama and CBR boards.
This may have been where it started a couple of years ago (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3460853&postcount=19), but it was nudged (http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=69944) along here and there (http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showpost.php?p=1995107&postcount=26) as well."
esophagus
03-03-2008, 08:50 PM
WHERE ARE BENDIS' SMILEYS?! THEY ARE IMPERATIVE TO MY UNDERSTANDING THE MEANING! God damnit, Luthor!
labor_days
03-03-2008, 08:53 PM
Yeah, I saw that originally. I kinda agree with Bendis in that it was just unnecessary of Grant to put down Secret invasion. The two events can't be more apart from what I can gather of them. But at the same time, I do think Grant was just having a bit of a laugh. What he said wasn't overtly mean or hurtful. He's pumping up his book.
And yeah, shit talking happens on both sides of the street with Marvel's fans being somewhat over-protective of their company one half of the time and DC's fans having blinders on the other half.
edit: also at some point I hope to understand where all the Devin Grayson love/hate comes from. As her work has often left me saying, "meh". Hard to imagine why people get so worked up over her output. Honestly.
esophagus
03-03-2008, 08:56 PM
It sounds to me like Bendis and GMo were both just having fun, and being a bit overbearing, but that Gail is the real crazy one.
I think Bendis has a point. It does seem like Gail will fight with anyone over anything. I'm not saying that it's not amusing, I'm just sayin'.
horatio616
03-03-2008, 09:14 PM
I think Bendis has a point. It does seem like Gail will fight with anyone over anything. I'm not saying that it's not amusing, I'm just sayin'.
I used to hang a lot at YABS. It seems like there was always something going on over there with Gail vs. so-and-so. I'm sure a lot of it comes from her being a woman in an 'All Boys Club' though...
labor_days
03-03-2008, 09:16 PM
Or just being outspoken and not afraid to say what you think.
Though I will say a lot of Gail's posts are a bit nudge-nudge/wink-wink in tone and content.
I'm not saying she's wrong, I'm just sayin' ... there's a whole lot of fighting going on there.
xyzzy
03-03-2008, 09:53 PM
Gail Simone is a bit of a shit stirrer over at the Bendis Boards, but its clear that she does it with love.
jimski
03-03-2008, 11:23 PM
I have yet to encounter Gail Simone writing anything other than an online brouhaha. I'll have to make a point of finding out whether there's a steak under all that sizzle one of these days.
You just don't see this happening in other media. "'Lost' forever; '30 Rock' never! ABC rules!!"
kahunablair
03-04-2008, 02:14 AM
Gail Simone won me over with her Deadpool/Agent X run, and that was her first big gig. So I can't ever really say anything bad about her.
Sure she talks some crap, but no more then other creators. At least she can back it all up though.
labor_days
03-04-2008, 02:15 AM
Just be glad she didn't say anything about Rags Morales!
edit: Wait a minute, that was too easy. I'm ashamed of me.
at least Rags Morales can draw a wrist. ;)
horatio616
03-04-2008, 03:24 PM
I have yet to encounter Gail Simone writing anything other than an online brouhaha. I'll have to make a point of finding out whether there's a steak under all that sizzle one of these days.
You just don't see this happening in other media. "'Lost' forever; '30 Rock' never! ABC rules!!"
I thought her run with Benes on Birds of Prey was pretty solid. Gail writes good dialogue. After Benes, BoP becomes a revolving door of artists and it really hurts the book.
euchre0
03-04-2008, 06:36 PM
Golly jeepers, those folks are harsh. Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, I still hate to see creators go back and forth with such...ferocity.
kahunablair
03-04-2008, 08:24 PM
I kind of like this passion they're showing. It shows they actually give a crap about the work they are doing.
Sure it may seem infantile, but at least it show's their pride. I imagine it's like a football team spray painting, "EAST HIGH SUCKS! WEST HIGH RULES!" onto their opponents football field.
esophagus
03-04-2008, 09:17 PM
I kind of like this passion they're showing. It shows they actually give a crap about the work they are doing.
Sure it may seem infantile, but at least it show's their pride. I imagine it's like a football team spray painting, "EAST HIGH SUCKS! WEST HIGH RULES!" onto their opponents football field.A practice I also find juvenile, and useless.
I do agree with you, though. This just shows they take pride in what they do. And that Gail Simone likes to argue. There's rivals in every profession, this one just happens to be very internet based. Much like the aforementioned football example is very school based. Oh well.
Bah you call that a creator fight?
We need some old school Dave Sim/Jeff Smith links up in here...
xyzzy
03-04-2008, 10:21 PM
A practice I also find juvenile, and useless.
I do agree with you, though. This just shows they take pride in what they do. And that Gail Simone likes to argue. There's rivals in every profession, this one just happens to be very internet based. Much like the aforementioned football example is very school based. Oh well.
Eh. It's harmless. Friendly school rivalry (or company rivalry) is good for everyone.
labor_days
03-04-2008, 10:23 PM
Gail Simone totally punked Dave Sim in this thread (http://www.sequentialtart.com/community/Forum9/HTML/000244.shtml).
Simone gets tons of my respect for nailing an otherwse brilliant man for some of the most hateful comments I ever read about women.
I can't stand that misogynist bullshit of Sim's.
Gail Simone totally punked Dave Sim in this thread (http://www.sequentialtart.com/community/Forum9/HTML/000244.shtml).
Simone gets tons of my respect for nailing an otherwse brilliant man for some of the most hateful comments I ever read about women.
I can't stand that misogynist bullshit of Sim's.
Picking up Glamourpuss Labor?
I wonder how ROn's doing getting through Cerebus? I only need to read The Last Day now..
Disregarding mysogyny Cerebus is good comics.
xyzzy
03-04-2008, 11:05 PM
Picking up Glamourpuss Labor?
I wonder how ROn's doing getting through Cerebus? I only need to read The Last Day now..
Disregarding mysogyny Cerebus is good comics.
Do Sim's personal views intrude on the comic?
Hmmm, well it's impossible to do a 300 issue series and not involve some personal views, but it seems to me the controversial stuff was limited to the letters page and his essays which took up more and more of the issues near the end of the series.
labor_days
03-04-2008, 11:10 PM
No, think I am going to pass on Glamourpuss and Judenhaus.
I think one can appreciate art even if it's creator is distasteful to your own sensibilities. I enjoy Wagner for instance but obviously some of his views are offensive to me.
I just don't think Glamourpuss is going to sit right with me. Difficult as it is to separate the context of the work. Don't know about Judenhaus either. Seems to be hypocritical/unaware of it's own irony.
horatio616
03-04-2008, 11:15 PM
Do Sim's personal views intrude on the comic?
The problem with the series is that the entire second half is nothing but his personal views. It's basically an obtuse rant on what he sees as a matriarchal world. I would emplore anyone to stop reading Cerebus after "Jaka's Story". Actually, you could stop after "Church and State II" and you wouldn't miss anything enjoyable. Trust me.
I'm going to try out Glamorpuss, but the whole thing seems like another rant, this time about celebutantes. I'd rather Sim write about something than rage about something. Time for a new trick, old dog!
The problem with the series is that the entire second half is nothing but his personal views. It's basically an obtuse rant on what he sees as a matriarchal world. I would emplore anyone to stop reading Cerebus after "Jaka's Story". Actually, you could stop after "Church and State II" and you wouldn't miss anything enjoyable. Trust me.
I disagree.
One of the most arresting and moving moments I've ever read in comics comes near the end of the Going Home trade. I could spoil it, but I won't.
THere more to that series than just Sim rants. That is for sure.
horatio616
03-04-2008, 11:42 PM
I disagree.
One of the most arresting and moving moments I've ever read in comics comes near the end of the Going Home trade. I could spoil it, but I won't.
THere more to that series than just Sim rants. That is for sure.
Hmm, to each his own. Still, the warning to the others stands.
Cerebus went off the rails when Sim changed it from a story about Cerebus to a story about himself.
No, think I am going to pass on Glamourpuss and Judenhaus.
I think one can appreciate art even if it's creator is distasteful to your own sensibilities. I enjoy Wagner for instance but obviously some of his views are offensive to me.
I just don't think Glamourpuss is going to sit right with me. Difficult as it is to separate the context of the work. Don't know about Judenhaus either. Seems to be hypocritical/unaware of it's own irony.
Does Judenhaus mean what it sounds like?
labor_days
03-05-2008, 12:38 AM
Oh sorry, it's called Judenhass (http://www.judenhass.com/main.html). It's about the Holocaust.
The Beat (http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/02/27/the-one-about-dave-sim/) has an excellent and lengthy post that touches on Sim's views and his work. I think it is worth reading.
kashyyyk
03-06-2008, 02:31 AM
Listening to these folks rant and rave is amusing; but only in a dry, cynical way. It sounds too much like little kids fighting around the lunch table.
It doesn't reflect passion. To me it sounds more like insecurity. Artistic work is a very personal and vulnerable expression. I guess it makes that when you work gets slammed you feel it personally - and react accordingly.
Still, it turns me off.