Do You Think 'The Dark Phoenix Saga' is a Classic Must-Read for All Comics Fans?

[conorkilpatrick]

Ron and I just had a mini debate over the penetration level of The Dark Phoenix Saga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Phoenix_Saga) in the hearts and minds of comic book fans, especially in regards to its status as a classic book on the level of Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns.

And now I'm really curious about what you all think.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/5/55/200px-XMen135.jpghttp://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/9/94/250px-Tux-men2.jpg

[mikegraham6]

i think it's the best X-men story out there and reads better than a lot of the "classic" older books. I don't think it's up to the standards of Watchmen or DKR, but in terms of a classic superhero tale pre-modern era, it's definitely up there

[xyzzy]

Comic fans is a pretty broad category. I'm going to say no. Certainly, I wouldn't recommend it to anybody who didn't like superhero comics. It's a great super-hero story, but it doesn't transcend the genre like Watchmen does.

I would certainly think it was a must-read for anybody with an interest in the Marvel Universe. Outside of that, though, I think that most people could live happy comic lives without it.

[conorkilpatrick]

Now with poll. Voting's public. Own up, suckers!

[ronxo]

For the purpose of science, please vote in the poll above as well as providing your comments and thoughts (which are awesome!)

[mikegraham6]

hmmmmmm.....

i don't want to vote yes because i don't think it's up there with those two books, but i don't want to vote no either because i think you should read even if your not just an x-fan...... im conflicted:confused:

[conorkilpatrick]

hmmmmmm.....

i don't want to vote yes because i don't think it's up there with those two books, but i don't want to vote no either because i think you should read even if your not just an x-fan...... im conflicted:confused:

I clarified the options.

[mikegraham6]

okay, i voted no, but only because i don't think it reivented the medium the way Watchmen and DKR did. it's excellent and a great story, but i look at the other two books as great litterary works period, while Dark Phoenix is just a great superhero tale.
I'd give it to new readers only after weening them on more complex books first

[hometeam790]

I voted no, its great, but not transcendent like those two are.

[fred]

Ron and I are holding down the fort on classic status. It's part of one of my favorite comic runs of all time. It's really easy to get me to go on about it. As a matter of fact, I just mentioned the run on this week's show. I'm really tied up today so I do have time to be verbose.

[mikegraham6]

Ron and I are holding down the fort on classic status. It's part of one of my favorite comic runs of all time. It's really easy to get me to go on about it. As a matter of fact, I just mentioned the run on this week's show. I'm really tied up today so I do have time to be verbose.

it's on you Ron, quit lurking and post your love!

[ronxo]

Oh the love will come and the argument in favor of it - but I'm gathering data first..

patience Mike..patience...

[fred]

I love that Ron lurks on his own forums only surfacing when he or the DPS are mentioned. ;)

[mister-s]

it is defintiely the best X run of all time, and I can totally see what Fred and Ron are getting at.

However, was it the defining arc for the X Men, like DKR?

Did it have lasting effects across an entire industry like WM?

I don't think so, and I am really interested to see what you guys think.

[davegraham]

I vote, "no." I have been reading comics for a long time. Mostly, Marvel comics. I have known about The Dark Phoenix Saga ever since I collected the Marvel trading cards in the early 90's (precursor to Wikipedia), but I have never felt compelled to read it. Dark Knight Returns was one of the first Batman stories I went to when I ventured into DC comics, after being a Marvel only fan for a long time. Watchmen was the first comic I picked up when I started hearing things about Alan Moore being a great comic writer. However The Dark Phoenix Saga always seemed like just another piece of X-Men history that I wasn't all that interested in. I have never felt I missed out on anything at having never read Dark Phoenix. While Dark Knight isn't my favorite Batman story, I very much appreciate the artwork as a leap forward in sequential story telling. Watchmen...well... it is Watchmen.

Maybe I am missing out on having never read Dark Phoenix, but until I started listening to iFanboy I never heard anyone exclaim it as anything other than a piece of X-Men lore. I will have to put it on the reading list.

[kahunablair]

I love this storyline. It's definately one of the best X-Men stories ever told.

I have fond memories of the time when the X-Men cartoon started to advertise the upcoming "Phoenix Saga". I was in elementary school at the time and I do think that I've ever heard as much Lunchroom buzz as I did for this arc.

All this being said, it's a classic, but a classic on the level of DKR and Watchmen? I just can't bring myself to say that for some reason.

[humphrey-lee]

For comic fans? No. For X-Men or Marvel Universe fans? Of course.

But simply put, I've read at least, I dunno, 70, 80 maybe? runs, mini's, maxi's, extended series, et al that are of a much higher standard of quality that have come from the same time Dark Phoenix did up until now. To me that doesn't scream "Essential read" unless you're lean more towards the subject matter itself. Just how I see it.

[sullivan85]

I'll go with "no". It's a great story, and a classic defining X-Men story, but I don't think it changed comics the way Watchmen or DKR did.

[smaktakula]

I really enjoyed the "Dark Phoenix Saga." To my thinking, it's one of the high points of my time with comics.

I don't think it compares with Watchmen, which is a work of astouding depth and craftsmanship, but it's certainly on par with DKR.

The "Dark Phoenix" stuff still reads well, but to fully understand its impact, you have to look at comics as a whole during the late 1970s. There was definitely some exciting stuff going on in mainstream comics, but nothing to this level.

Claremont and Byrne put a lot of effort into that storyline, and began hinting at the potential dangers of Phoenix's new powers very early on (that may have begun during the Cockrum era). Viewed through that lense, the transition of Jean Grey from team weakling to world-devouring God is both beautiful and tragic.

Great book!

[thelostwoods]

The Dark Phoenix Saga was amazing and will always be an enjoyable read, but I don't think it would have had the impact that it did if I didn't already have an established relationship with these characters. I mean, to just give it to someone and tell them to have at it, I don't think they'd get the satisfaction that they would from works like Watchmen.

[ronxo]

A point of clarification here - the question isn't:
"Is the Dark Phoenix Saga as good as Watchmen or Dark Knight?"

rather,
"Is the Dark Phoenix Saga a classic must-read for all comic fans"

just because something is a classic, must-read definitely doesn't mean its as good or better than other books in that category...

[kahunablair]

A point of clarification here - the question isn't:
"Is the Dark Phoenix Saga as good as Watchmen or Dark Knight?"
rather,
"Is the Dark Phoenix Saga a classic must-read for all comic fans"
just because something is a classic, must-read definitely doesn't mean its as good or better than other books in that category...

Are you sure?
No! It's great but not a classic on a 'Watchmen' and 'DKR' level.

[paper]

I haven't read it, but is it a satisfying read as a standalone piece considering it's an arc within an ongoing? The self-contained aspect of Watchmen and DKR are probably a part of the draw.

[jimski]

I really enjoyed the story, even though I first read it in its black and white "Essentials" incarnation which was probably a mistake. If it isn't the best story to be printed between the covers of an X-Men comic, I am at a loss to think of what is.

I voted "no," though, because I think there are a couple of things keeping it out of the stratosphere. I feel like Watchmen or (to a lesser extent) Dark Knight could be picked up by anyone, read, and enjoyed. You don't really have to know anything about Charlton comics or Batman's cast of characters, and I know this because I read both of them in the eighties and had no idea whether any of the characters had ever appeared in print before other than Batman and a few others. You don't have to really like or be interested in Batman, or even be particularly interested in superheroes, to get something out of those books.

Dark Phoenix, though... it's obviously an ongoing storyline between other ongoing storylines, and the characters were established years earlier in other books that the reader may not have read without really being re-established in the Dark Phoenix book itself. It seems a little more... not dated, necessarily, but more "of its era," more seventies-comic-booky, while the other two seem more timeless to me. I feel like the reader would have to be more actively interested in the X-Men to get much out of it.

That may sound obvious, but here is a conversation that never happens:

"I was thinking of reading Catcher in the Rye. Is it any good? Would I like it?"

"That depends. Are you a big Holden Caulfield fan? Have you read anything else about Holden Caulfield?"

"I-- um... what?"

[mjm05k]

I haven't read it, but only because I've never really gotten into the X-Men. Nothing against them, just more interested in other characters.

[mrugly]

Oh wow, I borrowed this from the Library 2 weeks ago. I'll read it and join the discussion.

[mister-s]

Definitely a must read then (especially for Marvel Zombies).

[trsjeff]

Ooooh, juicy topic. Definitely can see both sides, now that I think about it, but it would honestly never have occurred to me to tell someone getting into comics that the DP Saga was a 'must read'. If someone wanted to get an understanding of the X-Men specifically, then I'd say yes, must-read. But comics on the whole? I'd certainly recommend Watchmen and DK, though, so I guess it doesn't hit that scale for me. In fact, I might say it is not even my favorite X-Men tale ever (I dunno, maybe the Mutant Massacre? That f-ed me up when I read it).

-Jeff

[jurassicalien]

I'd say yes it is, but here's the thing. I read the phoenix Saga for the first time through Essentials. So basically from her rising out of the water to her death. I think reading it this way is best, because it feels so epic and reaching and devistating when it's all done. Reading just the trade, you feel like you're missing things, because in a way you are. I know it's like...40 ish or something to read all that, but due to, from first essential on, you won't be sorry.

[jo11ypenguin]

I love this storyline. It's definately one of the best X-Men stories ever told.

I have fond memories of the time when the X-Men cartoon started to advertise the upcoming "Phoenix Saga". I was in elementary school at the time and I do think that I've ever heard as much Lunchroom buzz as I did for this arc.

All this being said, it's a classic, but a classic on the level of DKR and Watchmen? I just can't bring myself to say that for some reason.

I totally remember the cartoon when I was in elementary school, it got me into comics when I was young, and more recently when I saw it in syndiacation. I read DPS as a child, I was like 10 at the oldest so I cant say I remember it. I will see if I can pick it up wednesday at the store or the library. All this talk about it has renewed my interest. I say this before reading it again: it is hard for me to imagine that an X-story can compare to Watchmen, just because of all the X-history there is too know. I will track this down and read it so I my opinion actually matters.

[acomicbookgirl]

I voted yes. I loved it! This was the first Marvel story I read when I was getting into comics. God Loves Man Kills was the second one. For me, those are my must read X-men books..

[mastap]

I did't love it, it was good, but it felt a bit dry to be honest. Now to be honest I olny read it once in small chincks over a long time so I may have to read it again. But God Loves Man Kills is in my mind the second strongest single story from Marvel (the 1st is Born Again)

[esophagus]

I think this is quite possibly the ultimate X-Men book. But, I don't think it quite reaches the level of DKR or Watchmen. A classic nonetheless.

[labor_days]

Where is the poll option for "No. People like to remember it better than it was."? That would get my vote. Or you could just add "Terrible" as an option for the pithy voter.

[senoj1]

I think that the Dark Phoenix Saga is great and one the first things you should read but i don't think that it is necessary. However i don't like the X-Men all that much but this made me go on a craze for a month where all i read was X-Men.

[cormano]

I'd put God Loves Man Kills above Dark Phoenix Saga. I enjoy it more, personally but I also think it's more comparable to DKR and Watchmen because it's a self contained story rather than part of the ongoing. It also deals with issues from the time in a super hero world.

So anyway, I'd say no, although it's great I don't think it's comparable to the others.

[labor_days]

Yup, "God Loves, Man Kills" is better in almost every way.

[diabhol]

Dark Phoenix Saga is every bit the equal of DKR and Watchmen.

As I've said many times before, however, I think Daredevil's Born Again series is also in that same class.




--Marshall

[mikegraham6]

this was THE book that got me into comics. sure i had read comics prior to this but i didn't fall in love with them until my brother bought me a copy of DPS as my very first trade. Not only did i become a comics fan but an X-men as well.
I was listening to the newest episode of the Uncanny X-cast (an x-men podcast) and they are working their way through the entire x-men back catalogue and coincidently they have just reached the DPS. they had a great analysis that has almost changed my mind on the whole thing (the only that stops me from voting no is the wording of the poll choices, it's not on par with the other two books). but it is very significant.
it's a story that's been built up over countless issues, it has very subtle changes to a character building up to a point where she becomes completely different, it has character defining moments (wolverine, Alone! this created the wolvie we all know and love), and many other significant moments. I think it's essential to any x-fan as well as an essential must-read to show an evolution in story telling beyond the simplistic formulaic issues that came before (not just x-men but most comic books).
I don't think it elevated the medium like Watchmen or DKR but it definitely was a significant stepping stone in superhero comics.

check out the uncanny x-cast discussion on it, it was pretty interesting (and change the voting options and maybe i'll vote yes;))

[conorkilpatrick]

I don't think it elevated the medium like Watchmen or DKR but it definitely was a significant stepping stone in superhero comics.

(and change the voting options and maybe i'll vote yes;))

Your opinion to the question asked is "no", then.

[labor_days]

Poll is lacking an option for those who think Dark Phoenix Saga sucks. :-P

[acomicbookgirl]

Isn't that what No is for? :confused:

[conorkilpatrick]

Poll is lacking an option for those who think Dark Phoenix Saga sucks. :-P

Those people aren't pertinent to the discussion.

[conorkilpatrick]

Isn't that what No is for? :confused:

Reread the "no" option.

[acomicbookgirl]

Ok... You don't like it. Simple as that.. Leave it there.. I'm just used to the yes or no questions and no inbetweens.

[labor_days]

Those people aren't pertinent to the discussion.

You egalitarian, you.

[horatio616]

The Dark Phoenix Saga is my first comics love. Cyclops was the first character other than the "majors" (Spider-Man, Flash, Batman, etc.) who really caught my attention. All that being said, this story hasn't really aged well. Claremont's expository dialogue is dated and borderline corny. Yes, it's a classic, but it's nowhere near being in the same league as Watchmen or DKR. Looking at the polls, I'm kind of surprised that so many people have actually read it. A lot of good comics of this era seem to have been forgotten. *

* = shameless plug for Micronauts, Rom, and Seinkiewicz's Moon Knight.

[jimski]

Only just barely related, I was just reading John Byrne's thoughts on Rachel Summers in light of how the Dark Phoenix Saga turned out (http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20587&PN=1&totPosts=27):

As originally plotted by me, months before "The Fate of the Phoenix", Rachel was supposed to be Scott and Jean's daughter. As issue 137 turned out, that became impossible, but she was too central to the story to be eliminated, so I just left her as a generic telepath, and assumed Chris would not use the Scottt & Jean connection since it no longer worked.

Silly me.....

...There were two things I wanted to do when I plotted what became "Days of Future Past". First and foremost, of course, I wanted to do a kick-ass Sentinels story. But there was something else almost equally important: I wanted the X-Men to have a clean win. A story in which, when the dust settled, there was no doubt that they had accomplished what they set out to do. They had WON.

The story I came up with seemed pretty bulletproof. Marc Gruenwald, Captain Omniverse himself, insisted that what would happen was actually the "creation" of an alternate timeline, but I pointed out to him that Kate having been sent back thru her own "mindstream" meant there was no way that could happen. The link between Kate and Kitty was continuous, contiguous, and uncorruptable. When the past -- Kate's past -- was changed, it would be CHANGED, and the future from which Kate sprang would simply vanish.

That's what I plotted, that's what I drew, that's what I sent in. But when Chris scripted it, he included what immediately became known around the Office as "the lesbian incest scene", where Kate "leaves" Kitty's body, and "impulsively gives herself a kiss." In other words, she survives the alteration of the timeline.

I nearly exploded. I did not see this until it was published (and after this I insisted on script approval*), and I had never been so furious in my life. Roger Stern had to talk me out of quitting the book right then and there. He was no longer editor, but he was my friend, and he could see thru my anger to what was best for me and, he hoped, the book.

But the damage was done, both to my storyline and my attitude toward the book and the characters. That was when I really started to understand that, in the end, it didn't matter who I thought the X-Men were, or how I thought they should think and act, because it was what Chris scripted that was seeing print, and that was what the fans were accepting as "fact". (I did not know it at the time, but this was very much the same scenario that ultimately drove the wedge between Stan and Jack, and Stan and Steve.)

So the whole adventure did create an alternate timeline, which Chris and ^^***** have mined ad nauseum ever since. And the X-Men lost their clean win -- again.


*In the end, I didn't last long enough for this to kick in.

[horatio616]

Hmm, you'd think Byrne of all people could appreciate a scene where a character got to kiss herself.