Early Batman/Superman

[esophagus]

i'm extremely backed up on trades. On top of it all I have the "Batman Gigantorrent" that I just found online. Issues 1-662 plus annuals. I don't really feel bad about downloading this one, because I'm sure I couldn't buy each issue if I could, and I've paid for my fair share of the dark knight.

[mikegraham6]

Please let's not attack our friend Esophagus for downloading comics...
we don't want to go down that path again.

I figured i'd be pre-emptive

[esophagus]

Please let's not attack our friend Esophagus for downloading comics...
we don't want to go down that path again.

I figured i'd be pre-emptiveYeah, that's kind of why I explained. Generally I don't download a torrent of something, unless I know it will get my money eventually, like FotC or The Office. But I just couldn't resist this one. I thought it would be neat to see the first few issues and whatnot. I'll probably opt out of the entire 30 gig torrent, as I'm sure I'll never read msot of it.

[mikegraham6]

did you read some of the earlier issues yet? i hear they are actually pretty dark, i read one early issue in the Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told where bats actually kills a villain

[esophagus]

did you read some of the earlier issues yet? i hear they are actually pretty dark, i read one early issue in the Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told where bats actually kills a villain
Really? Was that explaine at all, or was this before he had the morality of never killing people?

[mikegraham6]

Really? Was that explaine at all, or was this before he had the morality of never killing people?

i would figure that the "morality" thing came about the day his parent's got murdered, you know, the murderer did use a gun and all that

[conorkilpatrick]

did you read some of the earlier issues yet? i hear they are actually pretty dark, i read one early issue in the Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told where bats actually kills a villain

They are very dark. Batman killed people - sometimes with machine guns mounted on his plane!

They are all being collected now, comprehensively and in chronological order, in trades.

Batman Chronicles, Vol. 1 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bill-Finger/dp/1401204457/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/105-5963529-2134037?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189020903&sr=8-2)
Batman Chronicles, Vol. 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bob-Kane/dp/1401207901/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/105-5963529-2134037?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189020903&sr=8-3)
Batman Chronicles, Vol. 3 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bob-Kane/dp/1401213472/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-5963529-2134037?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189020903&sr=8-1)
Batman Chronicles, Vol. 4 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bill-Finger/dp/1401214622/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/105-5963529-2134037?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189020903&sr=8-4)

[conorkilpatrick]

Really? Was that explaine at all, or was this before he had the morality of never killing people?

Batman wasn't a fully formed character back then. He is in many ways quite different than the character we know now.

[esophagus]

Batman wasn't a fully formed character back then. He is in many ways quite different than the character we know now.I know that, but I always thought that his not killing people went back to the beginnings. I was wrong though.

[mikegraham6]

They are very dark. Batman killed people - sometimes with machine guns mounted on his plane!

They are all being collected now, comprehensively and in chronological order, in trades.

Batman Chronicles, Vol. 1 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bill-Finger/dp/1401204457/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/105-5963529-2134037?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189020903&sr=8-2)
Batman Chronicles, Vol. 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bob-Kane/dp/1401207901/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/105-5963529-2134037?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189020903&sr=8-3)
Batman Chronicles, Vol. 3 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bob-Kane/dp/1401213472/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-5963529-2134037?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189020903&sr=8-1)
Batman Chronicles, Vol. 4 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bill-Finger/dp/1401214622/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/105-5963529-2134037?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189020903&sr=8-4)

Conor, have you read those older issues? What did you think of them? I think their really interesting when compared to the early superman issues...

[esophagus]

Conor, have you read those older issues? What did you think of them? I think their really interesting when compared to the early superman issues...I've always loved that in the beginning Superman pretty much was Lex Luthor.

[conorkilpatrick]

Conor, have you read those older issues? What did you think of them? I think their really interesting when compared to the early superman issues...

Yeah, I own the first three volumes and I have the fourth preordered. I really like them a lot. It's interesting to see where the early concepts were introduced and either how different they are now or how much they haven't changed. Thery're also a lot of fun to read.

It's been a long time since I read the old Supermans. Weren't they somewhat political? I seem to remember him taking on corrupt politicians in Action Comics #1. Superman is getting the same Chronicles treatment, maybe I'll pick up the first volume of that one.

[mikegraham6]

Yeah, I own the first three volumes and I have the fourth preordered. I really like them a lot. It's interesting to see where the early concepts were introduced and either how different they are now or how much they haven't changed. Thery're also a lot of fun to read.

It's been a long time since I read the old Supermans. Weren't they somewhat political? I seem to remember him taking on corrupt politicians in Action Comics #1. Superman is getting the same Chronicles treatment, maybe I'll pick up the first volume of that one.

Ya in the beginning Superman was more about taking out corruption and helping out the "little guy", it has some interesting socialist undertones to it.

I wrote a paper in University about the evolution of comics and their characters as a commodity and my central focus was Batman. I love how in the beginning he was this darker and more serious response to Superman and then when the comics code came into play the character did a complete 180. You can kinda tracethe entire history of the comics industry through Batman, because it wasn't until the comics got more serious (with DKR) that they really became popular again. Batman basically had to embrace his original nature in order to jump start the industry. Of course im generalizing here, but it's really pretty facinating when you study the history of the character and how he's been handled.

[mikegraham6]

This is a really interesting book that touches on this subject, it was basically my inspiration for the essay:

Batman Unmasked: Analyzing Cultural Icon (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Unmasked-Analyzing-Cultural-Icon/dp/0826413439)

EDIT: I could be wrong, it's been a while, it might be this book: The Many Lives of the Batman: Critical Approaches to a Superhero and his Media (http://www.amazon.com/Many-Lives-Batman-Approaches-Superhero/dp/0415903475/ref=sr_1_1/102-0618475-4924124?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189023142&sr=8-1)

[esophagus]

Ya in the beginning Superman was more about taking out corruption and helping out the "little guy", it has some interesting socialist undertones to it. Yeah... From the grand old Wikipedia: "In the early stories, Superman is the only science-fiction element. He is described as the champion of the helpless and the oppressed, and he combats real-world social evils: munitions manufacturers, dangerous conditions in mines and a hit-and-run drunk driver (in Superman #1), rigged prize fights and corrupt businessmen (in Superman #2), child abusers and wife beaters (in Superman #3) and crooked cops and politicians (in Superman #7). By 1940, more extraordinary antagonists began to appear in the stories, including giants, mad scientists and dinosaurs."

[cormano]

munitions manufacturers, dangerous conditions in mines and a hit-and-run drunk driver (in Superman #1)[/I]"

Wow… all that in Superman #1!

[drwally]

Ya in the beginning Superman was more about taking out corruption and helping out the "little guy", it has some interesting socialist undertones to it.

"socialist" says the Canadian? (j/k):)

You really have to place those versions of Superman and Batman in the context of those times, and you see that they are at all not unusual for the late 30s/early 40s , and not innovative in type of story (although the circus tights and superpowers thing was new)- they were quite a bit like many other "pulp" characters of the time. I think their evolution is plainly linked to the way most popular culture evolved.

Not to get too political, but FDR was president then, not George Bush or Herbert Hoover. Still, it was hardly controversial during the 1940s for Truman to investigate war profiteering by American companies, even though his party controlled both the White House and Congress. "Isolationist America," very unwilling to get involved in WWII before Pearl Harbor, had a strong memory of war profiteering in the previous world war. FDR was president (was he a socialist?), and America was still in the grips of the Depression. Although a practical man, he had to run in 1936 as though he was more leftist than he really was to maintain his popularity at a time when the union movement was finally estabishing itself as a powerful force for change and most people did want to burn the rich at the stake.

Don't forget - Billy Batson, who actually outsold Superman during the war, started as a homeless kid. The only person who thought crime was just lowlife stickup men and auto theft was J.Edgar Hoover at the FBI. Everyone knew about organized crime, racketeering (construcition project bribes, protection, loan sharking, etc.), and corrupt public officials. It was all over the newspapers. So, you hear lots of those kinds of stories on the Green Hornet radio program as well, and in other comics of the time. No wonder Superman has that as well -- it was just a very common type of story then. Even the Spirit had that kind of story then frequently, though in Eisner's case, one corrupt mayor was drawn to look like FDR.

And Batman? Oh that is so obvious - That's The Shadow in tights. I don't mean to demean Batman's creation -- in fact, Batman was a brilliant "update" or "modernization" of The Shadow, The Green Hornet, and other pulp characters for a new age and generation -- so much so, he continues to be a wonderful embodiment of the "dark pulp" type characters like The Shadow that lives on while the Shadow and The Hornet are basically defunct. I believe it was Denny O'Neil (?) who wrote a "Batman meets the Shadow" story in the 70s, and actually had Batman say something like, "You were what inspired me" or something like that. Zorro? baloney. The Shadow was the one that came out at night and made a point to frighten crooks (before he shot them). The radio show was more tame, but then as now, the more "mass" the media, the more tame its made for a larger, general audience.

As for guns, pulp characters like the Shadow frequently gunned down gangsters by the dozens in the early thirties. His twin .45 automatics were as much a trademark as his cape -- but not suitable as American pop culture changed post war. Characters like the Shadow could not retire their guns and still be who they were, but Batman could adapt. But, just look at the grief an extremely tame Batman got with those Congressional Hearings in the 50s when Ozzie and Harriet became the ideal-- yet young people read about the Shadow gunning down gangsters by the dozens all the time in the early 30s. But the 50s? Well, keeping young people safe from "dangerous media influence" became a mass frenzy.

what was it Harry Truman said?

[mikegraham6]

this thread is RIGHT up wally's alley ;)

[drwally]

this thread is RIGHT up wally's alley ;)

Ya' think? :)
If I had more time, I would work more on a script I have been "developing" for ages - guess which time period I would set it in?
I am a big "interwar" history buff, but the REAL master of Golden Age comics lore (and a master story teller) is Bill Jourdain on his podcast:
http://goldenagecomics.libsyn.com/ Just take a look at his podcast archive -- WOW it's a Golden Age dream.

And - Lobster Johnson out this week -- YUMM!