To smart for middle america?

[brantcollins]

Me do not understand what mean from that statement.


I like TRS more than any show on Revision 3. But I did not like this comment. You do not have to live in LA, NY, or SF to enjoy the arts. And I was surprised this came from Alex.

Brant Collins
Middle America

[kahunablair]

They weren't referring to one person, it was a demographic statement.
If you look at what shows are preferred regionally, what he said isn't that off. Reality shows and serialized Crime dramas are the main contenders for TV in the majority of American households.
He really wasn't taking a jab at you. There are always exceptions to the rule. I live in New Jersey, but I don't live on a landfill, I'm not a lawyer, and I do not have a mullet nor jersey girl hair.

[filch]

I live in Florida, and Floridians get riffed on all the time, but it doesn't bother me nor do I get offended by it. I know me and I think I can consider myself an intelligent and informed person. I think you do to, but if you're offended and didn't realize the meaning in his statement...... well, lighten up bit. :)

[denmmurray]

Dude...I live in Tennessee...c'mon...it's like living in Arkansas...seriously...

[atom12]

Me do not understand what mean from that statement.


I like TRS more than any show on Revision 3. But I did not like this comment. You do not have to live in LA, NY, or SF to enjoy the arts. And I was surprised this came from Alex.

Brant Collins
Middle America

Not to be a grammar Nazi but I think it supposed to be "I do not understand what you mean from that statement." Otherwise it comes across as an unintelligent hick statement. As you watch TRS we know this is not the case for you.

To your comment, they did point out that many of their fans come from middle America. What they where saying is that middle America tends to have the biggest impact to viewer ship numbers (and voting for that matter). In essence middle America is not known for it's taste in cutting edge or groundbreaking programing or leaders for that matter.

You are obviously the exception, congrats on being diffrent from the pack. You truly are Totally Rad!:cool:

[denmmurray]

Not to be a grammar Nazi but I think it supposed to be "I do not understand what you mean from that statement." otherwise it comes across as an unintelligent hick statement. As you watch TRS we know this is not the case for you.

Oh, sarcasm...you are so misunderstood.

[brantcollins]

Not to be a grammar Nazi but I think it supposed to be "I do not understand what you mean from that statement." otherwise it comes across as an unintelligent hick statement. As you watch TRS we know this is not the case for you.

To your comment, they did point out that many of their fans come from middle America. What they where saying is that middle America tends to have the biggest impact to viewer ship numbers (and voting for that matter). In essence middle America is not known for it's taste in cutting edge or groundbreaking programing or leaders for that matter.

You are obviously the exception, congrats on being diffrent from the pack. You truly are Totally Rad!:cool:


That was sarcasm

[brantcollins]

Oh, sarcasm...you are so misunderstood.

Thanks for getting it. Damn! There are smart people in Tennessee(more sarcasm)

LOL

[lrsk]

Could it be that they meant Middle America as the concept of "The Average American"? They might have just used Minnesota as an example. Not being an American myself, I'm not too familiar with the term, so I couldn't say for sure.

[denmmurray]

Thanks for getting it. Damn! There are smart people in Tennessee(more sarcasm)

LOL

Well, strangely enough...I lived in Oregon up until 5 years ago...so I'm not really from Tennessee...thank god.

[xibalba]

Well, strangely enough...I lived in Oregon up until 5 years ago...so I'm not really from Tennessee...thank god.

I've lived in Tennessee all my life born and raised so screw you. :D

[trsjeff]

(Well, his thread title should be "Too smart" not "to smart" and I don't think that was supposed to be an intentionally sarcastic grammatic mistake - but I digress)

I understand the feeling of being slighted by Alex's comment. But honestly, he was NOT implying that where you live dictates your level of intelligence. Nobody seems to remember that we all rushed to point out that anyone who seeks out the kind of entertainment we talk about on TRS is already distinguished among his peers. Rather, Alex's point was that people who tend to feel ambivalent about their entertainment - or, to put it another way, aren't discerning viewers (oftentimes because they don't work in the media or entertainment industry and don't pay very much attention to what is available) - those people often live in the middle of the country. If YOU live in the middle of the country, and ARE a discerning viewer, Alex was not referring to YOU. So please, do not take offense.

Thanks,
-Jeff

[mltvcocktail]

Middle America are the people who support American Idol and Deal or No Deal over our beloved shows like Battlestar Galatica, Arrested Development and the like. They don't like things that are too far out or challenging. They go see Wild Hogs and Delta Farce instead of Sunshine or Stardust. Yes, occasionally they take some things to heart like Heroes or Lost or 300 but more often than not they like to take the easy way. I'm not saying they're wrong I'm just saying they are responsible for murdering some brilliant shows and movies.

[brantcollins]

(Well, his thread title should be "Too smart" not "to smart" and I don't think that was supposed to be an intentionally sarcastic grammatic mistake - but I digress)

I understand the feeling of being slighted by Alex's comment. But honestly, he was NOT implying that where you live dictates your level of intelligence. Nobody seems to remember that we all rushed to point out that anyone who seeks out the kind of entertainment we talk about on TRS is already distinguished among his peers. Rather, Alex's point was that people who tend to feel ambivalent about their entertainment - or, to put it another way, aren't discerning viewers (oftentimes because they don't work in the media or entertainment industry and don't pay very much attention to what is available) - those people often live in the middle of the country. If YOU live in the middle of the country, and ARE a discerning viewer, Alex was not referring to YOU. So please, do not take offense.

Thanks,
-Jeff

Ok Jeff you caught me on the To vs. Too, I will admit it.

Thanks for the reply.

[tokenuser]

Middle America.

I am having a hard time deciding if that is the part that seperates North America from South America ... you know down around the equator ... the bit in the middle.

Or if it is the "New World" that the elves migrated to from Middle Earth. If thats the case, I'd have thought it would have referred to the tree huggers in Oregon and NoCal.

[mier]

Middle America are the people who support American Idol and Deal or No Deal over our beloved shows like Battlestar Galatica, Arrested Development and the like. They don't like things that are too far out or challenging. They go see Wild Hogs and Delta Farce instead of Sunshine or Stardust. Yes, occasionally they take some things to heart like Heroes or Lost or 300 but more often than not they like to take the easy way. I'm not saying they're wrong I'm just saying they are responsible for murdering some brilliant shows and movies.

Galactica is not a brilliant show so lets get that out of the way. It's not a question of finding things "brilliant" it's one of is it watchable. It's not a question of they don't like "challenging" material it's about being down right offensive. There's a place for these "brilliant" shows and it's on cable.

[gojira]

Rather, Alex's point was that people who tend to feel ambivalent about their entertainment - or, to put it another way, aren't discerning viewers (oftentimes because they don't work in the media or entertainment industry and don't pay very much attention to what is available) - those people often live in the middle of the country.

Can someone please show me some facts to back up what Alex or Dan said? If it is true, then fine. But without facts those statements just come off as elitist. I'm not really all that bothered by what Alex said, but I have to say how I feel being from Minnesota.

[stubadub]

Can someone please show me some facts to back up what Alex or Dan said? If it is true, then fine. But without facts those statements just come off as elitist. I'm not really all that bothered by what Alex said, but I have to say how I feel being from Minnesota.

I don't know the location of any hard data to back this up, but I'm pretty sure it exists. Nielson data can probably be viewed by city or state, and I'm sure they can provide this level of detail to networks for advertising purposes.

Anecdotally, I've noticed that movies that are comperable to the type of television they were discussing usually perform well in cities like Los Angeles and New York (thank god Austin as well) while they usually don't even show up in most of Middle America. I'm talking about foreign films,art house films and the like. While population size plays some part, I believe there is more to it than that.

For example, the South Lamar drafthouse gets a lot of unique films as well as big summer movies, and people here tend to want to see everything they can at the drafthouse as opposed to other theaters. The most successful movie to ever play at the drafthouse is Pan's Labyrinth.

We have two full fledged Art House theaters, a Drafthouse location downtown that plays arthouse films, the South Lamar location which often plays arthouse films, the Paramount theater which runs classic films several times a day over the summer, and often arthouse films tend to roll over into the multiplex locations.

In contrast, while I lived in New Orleans between 1989 and 2005 we had one arthouse theater with 4 screens, and it did ok enough to continue to stay open. Population wise New Orleans was at about 490,000 in the city and 1,320,000 in the greater metro area, while Austin is at 690,000 and 1,500,000. Not a significant enough difference in population size for it to be the sole reason that these movies are more successful here.

[ryan79]

Being from Kentucky, the epicenter of all things artistic and intelligent, I have to say I was a little put off by Alex's comment. I understand what he was trying to say but it just came off as elitest.

Maybe it's just the people I come into contact with, but I know far more people that watch(ed) Battlestar or Firefly than any of the Law & Orders or other crime-drama shows.

[darthender]

I'm just gonna cut n' paste my comment from the episode thread since it's the exact same discussion here:

Seriously kids. Stereotypes exist for a reason.

Yeah, okay, you're not stupid. What a surprise, someone who knows how to download a show off the internet isn't a complete moron.

Doesn't mean your state isn't made up of mostly morons.

In fact, every state is made up of mostly morons. Because most people are morons.

It's just that most of the Nielsen rating boxes go to middle america. So those are the morons that make our TV suck.

[heyseuss]

Can someone please show me some facts to back up what Alex or Dan said? If it is true, then fine. But without facts those statements just come off as elitist. I'm not really all that bothered by what Alex said, but I have to say how I feel being from Minnesota.

Jeff said it, not Dan. And the facts are in the populous.

Are you more concerned about the comment because it's false in your eyes, or because you are from the midwest? I don't see that many British people conveying the same thing as you.

[heyseuss]

Galactica is not a brilliant show so lets get that out of the way. It's not a question of finding things "brilliant" it's one of is it watchable. It's not a question of they don't like "challenging" material it's about being down right offensive. There's a place for these "brilliant" shows and it's on cable.

Read what you type before you post.

[tnvwboy]

Do we really need yet another thread crying about how the guys said or did something that hurt your feelings?

TRS is an opinion show and opinions are just that and everyone is entitled regardless if you agree or not. Additionally this is more or less an improvisational show. This means that sometimes they will say stupid things. Get over it.

Sure Alex may have specified a state but his point was valid. Do you really think he was looking at us, the viewers of TRS, and calling us stupid?

Bottom-line... man-up and deal.

[diggkisser]

I too didn't appreciate the comment. As if people that live in Minnesota are bunch of cowpokes. Huh! Minnesota is a Blue State and very liberal. What a snobish thing to say. As if any show on Television is that "brilliant". Television in itself is made for the masses and needs ratings. Same with movies. Same with podcasts. If you want a large audience (and large money) you'll have to sell everyone. I love the shows but you guys have to get over your snobish attitudes about "smart media" and "dumb media". It's just a business to make money and more viewers equal more money. It's not art, it's business. It can be artistic sometimes but it's business. You fellows are learning that quickly because Rev3's bills need to be paid.

[mrpopular]

OMG

it takes me 2 tears to see that the TRS forum has been over taken by a bunch of whiners.

Take a chill pill. talk Southland Tales trailer or something.


Bay City Michigan.... Middle America and Proud!... (The place where the Bay City Rollers got their name)

[heyseuss]

I too didn't appreciate the comment. As if people that live in Minnesota are bunch of cowpokes.

You should make it more obvious that you're being sarcastic. Someone might actually think you are confused enough to believe that middle america isn't full of cowpokes.

As if any show on Television is that "brilliant".

You're right, there aren't that many shows that are brilliant any more, due to ratings coming out of that area.

It's not art, it's business.

Enough. That's the kind of simple thinking that is being referred to. The topic is beyond you.

You fellows are learning that quickly because Rev3's bills need to be paid.

Something that has nothing to do with them, and is again, a topic out of your league.

[mltvcocktail]

Ok, here's the perfect example to end this discussion. Look at Ricky Gervais' show Extras (which I suggest everyone go watch because it was hilarious). Ok, so Ricky plays Andy Millman who is a struggling actor who writes a sitcom and pitches it to the BBC. His thinking is that it is a smart, funny look at real people in the workplace *cough*The Office UK*cough* but the BBC turns it into a stupid formulaic sitcom where the joke is catchphrases and costumes and random unexplained celebrity guests. The show gets great ratings but destroyed by the critics and Andy feels like he sold out. The people giving the show the great ratings are the average viewer or "middle america". There's nothing wrong with liking shows like that but it just means that anything challenging the norm or requiring some extra thought is going to have a tougher time. They will probably get critical praise but not enough ratings.

[mara11jade]

okay


1) I am from Minnesota

2) I work in LA now at an indie movie studio.


In LA/NYC/SanFran, you have a very concentrated group of people who will consume any new types of arts/shows/movies, etc. It's a part of being in a much larger city.

However, the numbers that really count are the rest of the 48 states and what THEY go see. We actually have a meeting every Monday morning to compare box office stats (down to how much each single theater/city made that we had a movie in)


My movie studio put out a little movie called Sunshine.

Where did Sunshine do really well with a great screen average? LA, NYC, & San Fran. Where did it not do so well, which cause us not to keep the movie in the theaters as long? Pretty much the rest of the country. "Too heady of a movie" way to foreign concepts, etc

We still did get SOME numbers of people coming out... but then there is a whole section of people too who download the movie instead, we don't see those numbers, and thus we pull the movie sooner too.


Now, compare that to a much more generic "fun for everyone" sort of film like Wild Hogs even (and I liked it) Transformers. Where are the numbers higher? The whole country :D



So yes, there are real numbers to back up what Alex is saying and I see them weekly working at in "indie" film studio. If there is one truth to hollywood, whatever makes them money they will keep producing... and what does not gets axed big time, despite how good people may say it is.



so, simmah down people!!!

[mrpopular]

Umm Mara jade.... can I have a job?? lol. j/k


and to everyone complaining...
This Thread = Fail

[lrsk]

okay


1) I am from Minnesota

2) I work in LA now at an indie movie studio.


In LA/NYC/SanFran, you have a very concentrated group of people who will consume any new types of arts/shows/movies, etc. It's a part of being in a much larger city.

However, the numbers that really count are the rest of the 48 states and what THEY go see. We actually have a meeting every Monday morning to compare box office stats (down to how much each single theater/city made that we had a movie in)


My movie studio put out a little movie called Sunshine.

Where did Sunshine do really well with a great screen average? LA, NYC, & San Fran. Where did it not do so well, which cause us not to keep the movie in the theaters as long? Pretty much the rest of the country. "Too heady of a movie" way to foreign concepts, etc

We still did get SOME numbers of people coming out... but then there is a whole section of people too who download the movie instead, we don't see those numbers, and thus we pull the movie sooner too.


Now, compare that to a much more generic "fun for everyone" sort of film like Wild Hogs even (and I liked it) Transformers. Where are the numbers higher? The whole country :D



So yes, there are real numbers to back up what Alex is saying and I see them weekly working at in "indie" film studio. If there is one truth to hollywood, whatever makes them money they will keep producing... and what does not gets axed big time, despite how good people may say it is.



so, simmah down people!!!


EXACTLY! Well said! Alex didn't mean to say that people in Minnesota or Iowa or Tennessee are stupid because they don't like shows that are good. He meant that shows like Pushing Daisies doesn't have the kind of mass appeal that is required to be a success and stay alive. And mass appeal means not-niche, not gender specific etc...

Alex could probably have worded it a little differently, but that was the gist of it. Now let's end this before it gets misinterpreted further...

[wizmaster]

EXACTLY! Well said! Alex didn't mean to say that people in Minnesota or Iowa or Tennessee are stupid because they don't like shows that are good. He meant that shows like Pushing Daisies doesn't have the kind of mass appeal that is required to be a success and stay alive. And mass appeal means not-niche, not gender specific etc...

Alex could probably have worded it a little differently, but that was the gist of it. Now let's end this before it gets misinterpreted further...

He could have worded it differently but the message is the same and people would have still been offended. Frankly, these people are whiners. I'm a New Yorker and I don't complain about the stereotypes that are associated to me (true or not). For a show that's about opinions, people are getting their underwear in a bunch for something small and that they showed that they weren't trying to insult anyone after it came out that way.

Don't think the complaints will stop but whatever.

[serenity]

Ug, you guys seriously. Why are people so sensitive?

You know, if they had said, "Eh, people who live in South Florida won't get it because South Florida is a bunch of geriatric Jews and they don't care about this stuff" I would laugh and think "Yeah, that's half my family and no, they wouldn't get it".

I wouldn't be offended because I am not what they are describing but I can look around me and see exactly what they are talking about. My state has this reputation for a reason; for the most part, it's true!

When someone makes a general statement it is usually not intended to include every single individual within the generalization. We make generalizations to describe the world around us because we have to, we can't name every individual involved.

Look around you, middle America. Do you *not* know people exactly like the boys were discussing? You may not be one of them but they are probably a majority in your town or state. Be happy you are not one of the crowd and realize that the boys statement did not include you.

Relax!


Edit: Oh, well now I see I could have just copied and pasted Ender's comment. :P Although it's a bit harsher than I would have put it and not quite what I wanted to convey, it's short and gets the job done.

I'm just gonna cut n' paste my comment from the episode thread since it's the exact same discussion here:

Quote:
Seriously kids. Stereotypes exist for a reason.

Yeah, okay, you're not stupid. What a surprise, someone who knows how to download a show off the internet isn't a complete moron.

Doesn't mean your state isn't made up of mostly morons.

In fact, every state is made up of mostly morons. Because most people are morons.

It's just that most of the Nielsen rating boxes go to middle america. So those are the morons that make our TV suck.

[masherscf]

I think this was a forgivable, but unfortunate verbal slur on Alex's part. However, Alex is not known for his political correctness.

[roomforpanic]

I prefer to think of 'Middle America' as a colloquialism referring to cultural averages. The truth is, regardless of geographical locale, the average American equates American Idol with television, Tom Cruise with acting, and Taco Bell with Mexican food.

I happen to live in Oklahoma, and Alex's comment took me off guard; however, I have been a long-time fan of CAC, Diggnation, and I've been with TRS since the beginning, so I choose to allow the heft of positive feelings outweigh what seemed, at first, like a slight.

[kilroyperrywinkle]

Numbers.... and just the same argument as the other thread...

Pushing Daisies is a show lets say 5 out of 15 love, mark their calenders, and watch. Another 5 out of 15 never hear of it, would of liked it, but don't live in big cities like LA where the Ad-Machine is churning out Subway Tunnels, and Taxi Cabs coated with billboards and posters. None of the 5 that love the show tell them to watch it in time because the show only has 5 ep. to get going before its axed. They never see the show, they never watch the show, the show dies.

Also, you don't have a heavily populated area where the 5 that love run into the 5 five that like and tell them about it.

It isn't about stupidity, its not about education, its about marketing. Bigger cities get the bigger posters cus more eyes will see them.

That being said, if you live in MI (like me) and watch the show... tell 5 people about it.

Save it before it dies.



Seriously guys, its just Alex for Christs sake...

...you know those LA kids have no manners....


ZING!

[heyseuss]

Seriously guys, its just Alex for Christs sake...

...you know those LA kids have no manners....
ZING!

But what amazing hair !

[gojira]

I don't think most people are morons. And that's it's these 'morons' fault that good TV shows don't make it while bad ones do. It's partly marketing and how much a network supports a show, but it's also due to cultures of watching TV.

What I think Alex meant and Jeff was alluding to is that cultures of TV viewing exist. There are groups of people who are very discerning when it comes to their TV viewing. They seek out new and interesting televisions shows. And cheer when something unique and interesting is made. It's like they're TV connoisseurs.

Then there's the culture of people who just plain enjoy watching TV. They aren't morons or people who are too stupid to watch 'good' TV. They just watch the shows they like and the shows their friends like. Sure, they aren't connoisseurs, but they know good TV when they see it. And they will support and watch good shows if they get hooked.

And for the reasons given and many more, cities like New York and Los Angeles have larger versions of the TV connoisseur culture. So while I guess I agree with what Alex said, I don't really agree with how he said it. It just came off wrong, I'm sure.

[gm_wil]

Just gotta put in my quick 2 cents as well...

People get offended and take things personally because, I'm guessing, they love the show and have put a personal investment into it...they get attached to the guys and the show becomes an experience they can take delight in for an hour a week...so if something is done that suddenly saps that enjoyment they were expecting, like if a good friend said something that offended them, they'll speak up...because that's what friends do.

People are saying they are unhappy. Let them be unhappy, they'll still watch...but to want them to keep their mouth shut? That's not cool. You tell them if they don't like the comment, don't watch the show...but yet, when they complain, you can't take your own advice and choose not to read.

That's messed up, hypocritical, and sounds like ya got advice from my ex-girlfriend. (chuckle)

Let the guys make a show people can choose to watch or not watch...

Let the forums be a place where people can speak...and you can choose to read...or not to read.

Born n raised in 'sconny (Wisconsin)

-

[kilroyperrywinkle]

And for the reasons given and many more, cities like New York and Los Angeles have larger versions of the TV connoisseur culture. So while I guess I agree with what Alex said, I don't really agree with how he said it. It just came off wrong, I'm sure.

Wha?

What are you basing this on? Where's the survey that backs that up? There's no elderly people watching Wheel of Fortune in NY? There's no nerdy Dead Like Me fan in Idaho? You mean to tell me that "TV Connoisseurs" only exist in big cities? I mean come on, NBC in Nebraska is the same NBC in New York. HBO is the same no matter what cable provider you've got. We've all grown up watching the same Saturday morning TV shows, the same lame sitcoms.

Its the same TV, no matter where ya live!

Am I the only one thats sick of this ongoing mass generalization based on some superficial claim Alex made without thinking and off the cuff? No one has come up with any concrete evidence to back up their arguments on either side.

Its like me saying Firefly, (or Generic Show Number One) was canceled because people with red hair are stupid and didn't watch it.

Its not offensive its just asinine.

Bad shows stick around because enough people do watch them, and they're cheap to make.

Sitcoms, game shows and reality TV may suck, but they're cheap and don't require a lot of viewers. Heroes, BSG, Firefly, all are expensive to make and need a loyal fan base (and at TV Studio thats not mentally retarded) to keep them a float.

Thats why there's not that many quality sci-fi on the air, not because people in Iowa are too stupid to understand good TV, its just that good TV is too damn expensive nowadays to make.

So stop.

Just stop, its not geography... or culture... or snobs.... its a business model that makes money on eyeballs not art.

[gm_wil]

...one more thing...if that's how Alex feels, at least he was honest about it and shared it...I'd rather feel disappointed by the truth, than feel good about a lie.

"No Bullshit Wang?"

"No Bullshit Jack."

-

[serenity]

I don't think most people are morons. And that's it's these 'morons' fault that good TV shows don't make it while bad ones do. It's partly marketing and how much a network supports a show, but it's also due to cultures of watching TV.

What I think Alex meant and Jeff was alluding to is that cultures of TV viewing exist. There are groups of people who are very discerning when it comes to their TV viewing. They seek out new and interesting televisions shows. And cheer when something unique and interesting is made. It's like they're TV connoisseurs.

Then there's the culture of people who just plain enjoy watching TV. They aren't morons or people who are too stupid to watch 'good' TV. They just watch the shows they like and the shows their friends like. Sure, they aren't connoisseurs, but they know good TV when they see it. And they will support and watch good shows if they get hooked.

And for the reasons given and many more, cities like New York and Los Angeles have larger versions of the TV connoisseur culture. So while I guess I agree with what Alex said, I don't really agree with how he said it. It just came off wrong, I'm sure.

I'm going to have to politely disagree here.
Although I wouldn't call a lot of Americans "morons", that's just because I'm nice.
Oh fine, I suppose they aren't morons exactly but they just want mindless goofy crap to watch ALL THE TIME! Mindless stuff is alright once in a while but just like eating junk food, too much of it is bad for you.

My boyfriend jokes that he sees shows getting closer and closer to "Ow, My Balls!" every day.
This is why we don't have cable. We download the shows we want from iTunes and only pay for the good stuff. :)

You don't have to be a connoisseur to like smart, interesting, funny and unique TV. You just have to "get it".
They don't. They get "OW, My Balls!".


Edit: Typo Queen.

[filch]

And we've reached page 5...... O.o

[horatio616]

It's a common fallacy of people in New York and LA to think that they are so much more sophisticated than the unwashed masses that live in the rest of the country. If a critically-acclaimed show doesn't succeed, we're usually blamed for not supporting it because we're not sophisticated enough to understand it. Don't worry, if Pushing Daises is good, we'll eventually catch on. If not, it will go the way of the many shows that we refused to watch because some guy from LA told us that if we didn't we were stupid. Remember Arrested Development?

I'm not anywhere near Minnesota, but I'd gladly back my brothers-from-another-mother against LA tastemaker aggression any day. We here in TRS-land expect better from you, Albrecht!

[horatio616]

I live in Florida, and Floridians get riffed on all the time, but it doesn't bother me nor do I get offended by it. I know me and I think I can consider myself an intelligent and informed person. I think you do to, but if you're offended and didn't realize the meaning in his statement...... well, lighten up bit. :)

Floridians have no problems appreciating the arts. It's the voting machine thing that gives them trouble. ;)

[horatio616]

Not to be a grammar Nazi but I think it supposed to be "I do not understand what you mean from that statement." Otherwise it comes across as an unintelligent hick statement. As you watch TRS we know this is not the case for you.

To your comment, they did point out that many of their fans come from middle America. What they where saying is that middle America tends to have the biggest impact to viewer ship numbers (and voting for that matter). In essence middle America is not known for it's taste in cutting edge or groundbreaking programing or leaders for that matter.

You are obviously the exception, congrats on being diffrent from the pack. You truly are Totally Rad!:cool:


Wow, thanks for explaining that for us. A lot of us out here didn't get it. Do you have a time share in LA?

[horatio616]

okay


1) I am from Minnesota

2) I work in LA now at an indie movie studio.


In LA/NYC/SanFran, you have a very concentrated group of people who will consume any new types of arts/shows/movies, etc. It's a part of being in a much larger city.

However, the numbers that really count are the rest of the 48 states and what THEY go see. We actually have a meeting every Monday morning to compare box office stats (down to how much each single theater/city made that we had a movie in)


My movie studio put out a little movie called Sunshine.

Where did Sunshine do really well with a great screen average? LA, NYC, & San Fran. Where did it not do so well, which cause us not to keep the movie in the theaters as long? Pretty much the rest of the country. "Too heady of a movie" way to foreign concepts, etc

We still did get SOME numbers of people coming out... but then there is a whole section of people too who download the movie instead, we don't see those numbers, and thus we pull the movie sooner too.


Now, compare that to a much more generic "fun for everyone" sort of film like Wild Hogs even (and I liked it) Transformers. Where are the numbers higher? The whole country :D



So yes, there are real numbers to back up what Alex is saying and I see them weekly working at in "indie" film studio. If there is one truth to hollywood, whatever makes them money they will keep producing... and what does not gets axed big time, despite how good people may say it is.



so, simmah down people!!!

You should have had a meeting where you talked about having the worst title for a sci-movie ever. When I told people I was going to watch Sunshine, they thought it was a romantic comedy.

[iccanui]

first of all

http://revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9899


Secondly



(Well, his thread title should be "Too smart" not "to smart" and I don't think that was supposed to be an intentionally sarcastic grammatic mistake - but I digress)

I understand the feeling of being slighted by Alex's comment. But honestly, he was NOT implying that where you live dictates your level of intelligence. Nobody seems to remember that we all rushed to point out that anyone who seeks out the kind of entertainment we talk about on TRS is already distinguished among his peers. Rather, Alex's point was that people who tend to feel ambivalent about their entertainment - or, to put it another way, aren't discerning viewers (oftentimes because they don't work in the media or entertainment industry and don't pay very much attention to what is available) - those people often live in the middle of the country. If YOU live in the middle of the country, and ARE a discerning viewer, Alex was not referring to YOU. So please, do not take offense.

Thanks,
-Jeff

[tokenuser]

For those having a problem with what Alex had to say ... just remember that he might live in LA now, but that he does come from the backwoods of Virginia ;)

[mikeyj10]

I don't think middle America kills shows, I think it has more to do with scheduling. I mean they moved Shark to Sunday's. How the hell can I DVR this show now; Football is just going to delay the start so that I miss the ending each week.

This is how good shows wind up getting canceled.

[wizmaster]

I don't think middle America kills shows, I think it has more to do with scheduling. I mean they moved Shark to Sunday's. How the hell can I DVR this show now; Football is just going to delay the start so that I miss the ending each week.

This is how good shows wind up getting canceled.

They schedule shows to "bad" times because of ratings. If the ratings were hogher, it would be a primetime show.

[serenity]

This thread is just making me miss Firefly, Freeks and Geeks, The Tick, My So-Called Life, Arrested Development and Drive a whole bunch.

Those were my favourite canceled shows. :(

[wizmaster]

You should have had a meeting where you talked about having the worst title for a sci-movie ever. When I told people I was going to watch Sunshine, they thought it was a romantic comedy.

You are actually complaining about the title? People watch movies depending on the summary and/or commercials. Titles don't really summarized what the movie is about. I also don't see how Sunshine == romantic comedy but then again, it depends on the person. That's a pretty petty thing to complain about and the whole judging a book by it's cover thing applies.

As for your other posts, yea some city folk as assess but they will always be assess. The culture in a large city is different then suburban or rural cultures. Some things that would be popular in big cities may not always be popular elsewhere and without ratings across the board they will get cancelled.

Stupid may not be the best choice of words but if "middle america" doesn't like something, the networks will cancell it because it's not getting enough ratings, therefore not making enough money.

[tokenuser]

I don't think middle America kills shows, I think it has more to do with scheduling. I mean they moved Shark to Sunday's. How the hell can I DVR this show now; Football is just going to delay the start so that I miss the ending each week.

This is how good shows wind up getting canceled.Yep - DVR now being set to record 30 min longer than scheduled for Shark.

[masherscf]

This thread is just making me miss Firefly, Freeks and Geeks, The Tick, My So-Called Life, Arrested Development and Drive a whole bunch.

Those were my favourite canceled shows. :(

Firefly didn't get canceled because middle America rejected it. It got canceled because middle America never saw it.

[wizmaster]

Firefly didn't get canceled because middle America rejected it. It got canceled because middle America never saw it.

Heck, MOST people didn't see it. It was an interesting show and I enjoyed the movie. Kinda sad though, since it could have been a great series.

[mltvcocktail]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gNDmeZHdB4c

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gNDmeZHdB4c

nuff said

[serenity]

Firefly didn't get canceled because middle America rejected it. It got canceled because middle America never saw it.


Never said otherwise! :P

Hell, Drive didn't get canceled for any other reason other than "Fox is stupid and shoots themselves in the foot".
4 episodes? Really?

[gojira]

This thread is just making me miss Firefly, Freaks and Geeks, The Tick, My So-Called Life, Arrested Development and Drive a whole bunch.

Those were my favourite canceled shows. :(

Firefly was amazing, but I've never seen any of the other shows. My top canceled shows would be the Clerks cartoon, The Pretender, Firefly and The Incredible Hulk.

[serenity]

Sweet, we're derailing the thread!
This thread is now about your favourite shows that were canceled.
Go!

Firefly was amazing, but I've never seen any of the other shows. My top canceled shows would be the Clerks cartoon, The Pretender, Firefly and The Incredible Hulk.

I never saw The Pretender but I remember the Clerks cartoon.

Freaks and Geeks was so awesome and not only for the fact that Busy Phillips was in it looking like the hottest badass chick ever! <3
It was about the freaks (the stoner/cool/bad kids) and the geeks (the nerdy smart kids, duh) and the girl who was kind of a bridge between them. She was a geek who was slowly morphing to a freak but she still had a lot of her sweet geek qualities. It was set in the very early 80's, 1981 I believe.

Did I mention Busy Phillips is an extremely hot badass chick and I want to have her babies?

The Tick was also great. It starred Patrick Warburton as The Tick and he was so wonderfully cheesy and fun. "It's a secret message from my teeth!" (after eating a fortune cookie whole) He delivered lines like that so perfectly.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa130/Oomsoup/TheTickLiveActionBoxArt.jpg

Drive was canceled after only 4 shows. It was heartbreaking for me because I was loving the crap out of it. It starred Nathan Fillion (Mal, Firefly). It was about an illegal road race and the people behind the race were I suppose, betting on certain racers. It was only 4 episodes so it wasn't enough to really know what was going on behind the scenes but it they kidnapped Nathan's wife to make him race to get her back. Nathan's character was just emerging as way more complex than we originally thought. It was going to be a great show and Nathan was really, really good.

Arrested Development starred Jason Bateman as Michael Bluth, the only sane and normal member of this crazy family. - (grabbed form Wiki) Arrested Development is a character-driven American television comedy series about a formerly wealthy, habitually dysfunctional family. The show is presented in a mockumentary, complete with narration, archival photos, and historical footage. Since debuting on November 2, 2003, the series received six Emmy awards, one Golden Globe, copious critical acclaim, and a cult fan base. Despite the thorough approval from critics, Arrested Development never climbed in the ratings.

I'm not even going to bother describing My So-Called Life. My boyfriend says it's a chick show. :P
Still it was a more accurate look at the inner workings of high school than most shows ever gave.

Edit: Typo Queen.

[mara11jade]

You should have had a meeting where you talked about having the worst title for a sci-movie ever. When I told people I was going to watch Sunshine, they thought it was a romantic comedy.


Ha, and you only prove the point further by saying that. You wanted a title that you feel like everyone would just get it... and I'm not quite sure what else we WOULD have titled that movie anyhow.

[masherscf]

Never said otherwise! :P

Hell, Drive didn't get canceled for any other reason other than "Fox is stupid and shoots themselves in the foot".
4 episodes? Really?

I guess I was just refining the statement. I think middle America would have loved "Firefly" if the shit-heads at Fox had given it an even break.

[serenity]

I guess I was just refining the statement. I think middle America would have loved "Firefly" if the shit-heads at Fox had given it an even break.

Yeah, I think Fox has canceled more shows I've loved than any other network.

Let's see; Firefly, Arrested Development, Drive, Family Guy (back in the day), The Tick, Futurama...I'm sure I'm missing some.

[masherscf]

Yeah, I think Fox has canceled more shows I've loved than any other network.

Let's see; Firefly, Arrested Development, Drive, Family Guy (back in the day), The Tick, Futurama...I'm sure I'm missing some.

The thing about "Firefly" that the suits at FOX who read the concept but didn't understand was that it wasn't really a old-west-space-sci-fi cross. It was really about the characters. It doesn't matter that the setting was a little unorthodox and unique. Men and women from middle America would have immediately identified with Mal, Jayne and the rest.

[serenity]

The thing about "Firefly" that the suits at FOX who read the concept but didn't understand was that it wasn't really a old-west-space-sci-fi cross. It was really about the characters. It doesn't matter that the setting was a little unorthodox and unique. Men and women from middle America would have immediately identified with Mal, Jayne and the rest.

I somewhat agree but the concept itself is all a lot of people would see. "Sci-fi western? Screw that, it sounds stupid!" and that's as far as they would go.
It was different enough to make the average American ignore it even if it did get it's run. Anything with science fiction is a harder sell anyway, as a rule.
We'll never know, however. :(

[horatio616]

You are actually complaining about the title? People watch movies depending on the summary and/or commercials. Titles don't really summarized what the movie is about. I also don't see how Sunshine == romantic comedy but then again, it depends on the person. That's a pretty petty thing to complain about and the whole judging a book by it's cover thing applies.


The box office numbers speak for themselves. I heard some people in line at the movies see Sunshine on the marquee and say, "Sunshine? What is that? Is that a comedy or something?"

That movie very very poorly promoted. It's a shame too. Great film.

[horatio616]

Ha, and you only prove the point further by saying that. You wanted a title that you feel like everyone would just get it... and I'm not quite sure what else we WOULD have titled that movie anyhow.

Like Jeff said in the last episode. The title is important. Hmm, let's see, let's name this dark sci-fi film Sunshine. Consumer confusion, anyone?

[gm_wil]

The thing about "Firefly" that the suits at FOX who read the concept but didn't understand was that it wasn't really a old-west-space-sci-fi cross. It was really about the characters. It doesn't matter that the setting was a little unorthodox and unique. Men and women from middle America would have immediately identified with Mal, Jayne and the rest.

heck yeah...I second that...scraping by to make ends meet, that's the middle america I'm used to.

-

[darthender]

Yeah, I think Fox has canceled more shows I've loved than any other network.

Let's see; Firefly, Arrested Development, Drive, Family Guy (back in the day), The Tick, Futurama...I'm sure I'm missing some.3 words.

Brisco...County...Jr.

[summx]

what the hell, this isn't some new concept that trs made up. The south is known for their simplistic way of life and ignorance for lack of a better word. Many from the south think america is the best, **** yeah! and love reality tv. I don't have to be politically correct like jeff but the fact is the majority of southern viewers watch retarded shit like fox news

[darthender]

Well, America IS the best. **** YEAH! That's quatitatively provable.

[harkon]

... That's quatitatively provable.

What like with four breasts or something? :P

[horatio616]

what the hell, this isn't some new concept that trs made up. The south is known for their simplistic way of life and ignorance for lack of a better word. Many from the south think america is the best, **** yeah! and love reality tv. I don't have to be politically correct like jeff but the fact is the majority of southern viewers watch retarded shit like fox news

Wow, you have to be in high school.

And that's South. Capitalized. **** yeah!

Friggin' newbies...

[masherscf]

You don't have to be a connoisseur to like smart, interesting, funny and unique TV. You just have to "get it".
They don't. They get "OW, My Balls!".

Edit: Typo Queen.

I kinda lose perspective sometimes. In my career, I'm surrounded by "smart" people. And, even then, some of them act pretty stupidly sometimes.

Nevertheless, I have a great faith that average people are much smarter than they get credit for.

But, Humans are just such a herding animal, they often allow the culture to make judgments on things without investigating it themselves.

The "Firefly" example is typical. Joe figured that since "Firefly" didn't make it as a series, the movie "Serenity" must not be worth seeing. The only argument ever heard against seeing the movie was that it was based on a failed TV-series. The number of high-quality TV-series that get pulled in the first season never occurs to make a difference. Indeed, most Americans equate the financial success of a movie with critical quality. That is, they figure if everyone is seeing it, it must be good.

They allow the herding mentality of humanity to trump any individual judgment.

This is why I like TRS. They won't shy away from saying a movie sucks, even if all their buddies loved it...or visa versa

[wizmaster]

Lazy so multiple quotes.

I kinda lose perspective sometimes. In my career, I'm surrounded by "smart" people. And, even then, some of them act pretty stupidly sometimes.

Nevertheless, I have a great faith that average people are much smarter than they get credit for.

But, Humans are just such a herding animal, they often allow the culture to make judgments on things without investigating it themselves.

The "Firefly" example is typical. Joe figured that since "Firefly" didn't make it as a series, the movie "Serenity" must not be worth seeing. The only argument ever heard against seeing the movie was that it was based on a failed TV-series. The number of high-quality TV-series that get pulled in the first season never occurs to make a difference. Indeed, most Americans equate the financial success of a movie with critical quality. That is, they figure if everyone is seeing it, it must be good.

They allow the herding mentality of humanity to trump any individual judgment.

This is why I like TRS. They won't shy away from saying a movie sucks, even if all their buddies loved it...or visa versa

I will kindly disagree. I believe that most people are stupid and/or ignorant (and bad/evil but that's another discussion) regardless of where they live or what they believe.

Case in point,

what the hell, this isn't some new concept that trs made up. The south is known for their simplistic way of life and ignorance for lack of a better word. Many from the south think america is the best, **** yeah! and love reality tv. I don't have to be politically correct like jeff but the fact is the majority of southern viewers watch retarded shit like fox news

As for the herd mentality, it's a fact of american life (haven't toured the world so I'll discuss what I know) and isn't going to change soon if ever.

Like Jeff said in the last episode. The title is important. Hmm, let's see, let's name this dark sci-fi film Sunshine. Consumer confusion, anyone?

I believe title is only really important for marketing. The old saying, a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet applies here. Sure you might be able to work the title into the movie (maybe ironically) but the movie shouldn't depend on the title for anything but making it cool and marketable. I still don't get how Sunshine equates to comedy but that's just me. I'm not the one to dwell on titles or names of movies unless it has "Star Trek" or "Godfather".

[darthender]

I still don't get how Sunshine equates to comedy but that's just me.Because Little Miss Sunshine just came out a year before.


They shoulda called it "Here Comes Monster Man"!

[masherscf]

I will kindly disagree. I believe that most people are stupid and/or ignorant (and bad/evil but that's another discussion) regardless of where they live or what they believe.

I don't believe this cynical statement. There's ignorance maybe, but not by choice. I think every human has a potential for doing something brilliant. The trouble is that most people are hammered into small, "productive" lives without much that brilliance.

[wizmaster]

I don't believe this cynical statement. There's ignorance maybe, but not by choice. I think every human has a potential for doing something brilliant. The trouble is that most people are hammered into small, "productive" lives without much that brilliance.

That is a good point. I have more of a problem with willful ignorance, which probably isn't the majority. More then I would like but I guess "most" people would be pushing it unless you add the inability to tolerate other viewpoints (i.e. live and let live) as wilfull ignorance (but then that's me fudging the definition).

Oh well, we spent enough time on this tangent.

[brantcollins]

I am glad to see the open discussion of this topic. I used to work in promotions for a UPN and FOX station. The reason most "good shows" get canceled is the Networks do not give enough time to let them grow. I remember doing promos for Jake 2.0 and I thought the show was great, but UPN just wasn't a good fit viewer ship wise. Some reality shows stay so popular because they understand drama. Case in point


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLF9iEXnBRo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLF9iEXnBRo)

I will have to dig around through my stuff, but I think I have a copy of the Firefly and The Tick pilot on DVCPRO TAPE somewhere.

Everyone that posted is what makes this forum RAD.

[jimi]

I too was taken aback aback by the comment but I just think it wasn't expressed correctly. I agree with the basic idea that some shows are too new or unusual to catch on before they are cancelled and the large "unintelligent" viewing public is the culprit. Some people just want to tune in and know exactly what they are going to get. I think "According to Jim" is a perfect example. In talking with co-workers, I am surpised every day how so many won't even take a chance on a show no matter how much I promote it.

However, to narrow that down to just middle america felt wrong. I'm sure there are a ton of these people in NY or LA.

[filch]

I can't believe this got dredged to the top again

[tnvwboy]

I know...<sigh> Some threads need to be locked and die.

[jonathand-gordon]

seriously, that statement is so overused to explain away bad movies, music or art. Middle America Gets Lost , Middle America Got the Prestige. Smart artistic stuff doesn't befudle Middle America. Sometimes crap is crap. If you like something that is crap, don't play it off as everyone else doesn't get it cause they are less inteligent. Either it will be good and people will like it or it won't and people will pass on it. Chuck was supposedly an aweful show, as you can tell by the boards today the majority of people who watched it loved it. Maybe the Editing things don't mae as much different as you would like them to and maybe something that is supposedly brilliant isn't that brilliant to a mass audience. I used to love a Jeremy Piven show called Cupid. I thought it was smart and funny, when It was cancelled I didn't accuse everyone who hated it of being less intelegent.

[atom12]

I know...<sigh> Some threads need to be locked and die.

I am so tired of this thread....:mad:

[filch]

http://www.savvy-baby-gear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/baby-crying.jpg

get it out... there ya go....... there ya go........

[gm_wil]

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/baby.jpg

*burp*

-

[gm_wil]

http://www.savvy-baby-gear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/baby-crying.jpg

get it out... there ya go....... there ya go........

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/baby2.jpg

"Dis tred vill not die! It von't, it von't, it VON'T!"

-

[gm_wil]

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/jep2.jpg

"Welcome back to Jeopardy. Sean Connery, if you get this last question right, you win the game. The category is: States that end with innesota. The question was: What is the mascot for this state's University? Let's see what your answer is."

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/jep3.jpg

< gophers >

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/jep2.jpg

"Good Lord, Mr Connery. If I'm reading this correctly, you could very well win the game. Let's see what you've wagered."

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/jep4.jpg

< Trebek gophers little boys >

-

"Really, Mr Connery. Are we going to do this again?"

"Ho ho ho, ha ha ha. Yer damn right. Got you good didn't I lad?"

"Honestly? Do we need to bump it?"

"That's what I said to your mother when she couldn't keep her hands off me last night. Ho ho ho...ha ha ha...."

"I've told you a hundred times Mr Connery, my name is Alex Trebek, not Alex Albrecht. He is on the Totally Rad Show, not this one. That's en entirely different program!"

"Well, laddy, you better lock this thread so we can get on with the Totally Rad Show!"

-

[serenity]

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/jep2.jpg

"Welcome back to Jeopardy. Sean Connery, if you get this last question right, you win the game. The category is: States that end with innesota. The question was: What is the mascot for this state's University? Let's see what your answer is."

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/jep3.jpg

< gophers >

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/jep2.jpg

"Good Lord, Mr Connery. If I'm reading this correctly, you could very well win the game. Let's see what you've wagered."

http://homepage.mac.com/wilknoble/jep4.jpg

< Trebek gophers little boys >

-

"Really, Mr Connery. Are we going to do this again?"

"Ho ho ho, ha ha ha. Yer damn right. Got you good didn't I lad?"

"Honestly? Do we need to bump it?"

"That's what I said to your mother when she couldn't keep her hands off me last night. Ho ho ho...ha ha ha...."

"I've told you a hundred times Mr Connery, my name is Alex Trebek, not Alex Albrecht. He is on the Totally Rad Show, not this one. That's en entirely different program!"

"Well, laddy, you better lock this thread so we can get on with the Totally Rad Show!"

-

Hahahahaahaaaa! Awesome.
<3

[gonzooo]

The threadmaker should try living anywhere outside the US - You would be surprised at how ignorant most north americans seem to be when it comes to the rest of the world.

(Hints: When someone says they live in Sweden, you shouldn't follow up with "Oh, so you live in the United Kingdom?". No polar bears here either. Europe is not a country. Europe encompasses more than just the UK and France.)

[horatio616]

The threadmaker should try living anywhere outside the US - You would be surprised at how ignorant most north americans seem to be when it comes to the rest of the world.

(Hints: When someone says they live in Sweden, you shouldn't follow up with "Oh, so you live in the United Kingdom?". No polar bears here either. Europe is not a country. Europe encompasses more than just the UK and France.)

People live in Sweeden? Well huh.

It's hard to learn about other cultures with all these new video games coming out.

Let's keep this thread going. Let's make it the Official TRS mascot.

I'm pretty sure North Americans should be capitalized.

[horatio616]

The threadmaker should try living anywhere outside the US - You would be surprised at how ignorant most north americans seem to be when it comes to the rest of the world.

(Hints: When someone says they live in Sweden, you shouldn't follow up with "Oh, so you live in the United Kingdom?". No polar bears here either. Europe is not a country. Europe encompasses more than just the UK and France.)

I also have a couple of questions. Does 'north americans' include Canadians? Do South Americans seem to be less ignorant about the rest of the world?

[wizmaster]

This is the thread that never ends
Yes, it goes on and on my friends
some people, couldn't let go of a small mistake that was
a misunderstood opinion that just won't die because
This is the thread that never ends
Yes, it goes on and on my friends
some people, couldn't let go of a small mistake that was
a misunderstood opinion that just won't die because
This is the thread that never ends
Yes, it goes on and on my friends
some people, couldn't let go of a small mistake that was
a misunderstood opinion that just won't die because
This is the thread that never ends
Yes, it goes on and on my friends
some people, couldn't let go of a small mistake that was
a misunderstood opinion that just won't die because
This is the thread that never ends
Yes, it goes on and on my friends
some people, couldn't let go of a small mistake that was
a misunderstood opinion that just won't die because...

[horatio616]

That just gave me a seizure.

Long live this thread!

I haven't watched the latest ep yet. Did the guys address this issue at all?

[wizmaster]

That just gave me a seizure.

Long live this thread!

I haven't watched the latest ep yet. Did the guys address this issue at all?

Alex said he loves MN(?) but they kinda addressed it during the last show by trying to make sure it wouldn't be taken offensively.

Well, that's just me. Of course some people would prefer a formal (open) letter of apology or something like that.

[deegraww]

Yeah why is this waste of space thread still open? people need to grow a damn funny bone.

[horatio616]

Yeah why is this waste of space thread still open? people need to grow a damn funny bone.

In the big scheme of things, aren't all these threads a waste of space when they could be used for important things like geography? US Americans need to learn about this stuff so that we can help South Africans and Asians I personally believe.

[deegraww]

No, not at all.

[gonzooo]

I also have a couple of questions. Does 'north americans' include Canadians? Do South Americans seem to be less ignorant about the rest of the world?

Yeah, the point was to include Canadians. I find it (even more) unfair to judge the South-American people without actually talking to any of them.

Edit: Sorry about not capitalizing North Americans.

[gm_wil]

Yeah why is this waste of space thread still open? people need to grow a damn funny bone.

...amen tah that.

Speaking of Midwest, how cool will it be for Favre to beat Marino's record in the dome? I'm afraid to watch...don't wanna jinx (got my shirt) the pack 'cause they are doing well so far and I haven't seen a game...

-