'The War', A Ken Burns Film

[conorkilpatrick]

I don't know about you, but the release of a new Ken Burns film is a big deal around my apartment. Okay, not Jazz. I couldn't have cared less about that. But once a year I sit down and watch Baseball all the way through and The Civil War is a classic.

Sunday night on PBS brings us the first installment of Ken Burns' World War II documentary, The War (http://www.pbs.org/thewar/).

It's a 12 part documentary that's over 15 hours long and I'm excited but also worried. PBS always puts these documentaries out to coincide with the start of the TV season and I know why they do this - when The Civil War premiered in 1990 it took a sizable chunk out of the networks' audience. It was a national event. The problem is that none of his movies have done that since - Baseball did a little bit and was definitely somewhat of a national deal, but Jazz landed without a peep. I fear the same fate for The War.

I really want to watch The War, but there is also a lot of TV I want to check out. I've got a DVR and it's going to definitely be working overtime in the next two weeks.

[paper]

I'll be watching this.

[mikegraham6]

i've never seen a ken burns film (although im familiar with Ken Burn's parodies), and believe it or not, im a history buff. PBS just doesn't register on my tv radar, the channel is buried amongst the 60s/70s up here so i always forget to check it. what other documentaries has he done?

[labor_days]

I don't care overmuch for Burns' work. Too steeped in rose-colored nostalgia and heavy-handedness for my tastes.

The film on Jazz was offensive, one sided and revisionist. No one should ever listen to the Marsalis brothers and their anachronistic bullshit.

[conorkilpatrick]

i've never seen a ken burns film (although im familiar with Ken Burn's parodies), and believe it or not, im a history buff. PBS just doesn't register on my tv radar, the channel is buried amongst the 60s/70s up here so i always forget to check it. what other documentaries has he done?

I listed a few of the major ones (the ones he is most famous for) in the first post (The Civil War, Baseball, Jazz) but check him out here (http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/).

[labor_days]

I think I prefered that HBO documentary, When It Was Game to Burns' Baseball.

[conorkilpatrick]

I think I prefered that HBO documentary, When It Was Game to Burns' Baseball.

When It Was a Game was boring. But that's got nothing to do with The War.

[labor_days]

When It Was a Game was boring. But that's got nothing to do with The War.
Well, I could say the same of Burns' Baseball. It's a matter of preference.

I thought it was ok to talk about Burns in general. Excuse me, sir.

[mikegraham6]

Alright! the DVR has been set! this is going to be one helluva long documentary isn't it? im looking forward to checking it out now though

[paper]

Coming to dvd....October 2nd. (http://www.amazon.com/War-Film-Burns-Lynn-Novick/dp/B000R7NBMK/ref=pd_ts_c_th_9/102-1603915-8792944?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=right-5&pf_rd_r=1QPW9PKG64YM0PK35D8Z&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=294635701&pf_rd_i=507846)

[jimski]

I've been excited about this all summer. If Dish network gave me my PBS in HD, it'd be the perfect way to kick off the season.

[superfriend82]

I saw it on the the Today show. When is it on? So that i can rec it or something.

[diggkisser]

I've been waiting months for this show. I'm excited because it's HD! Yeah! I'll probably miss it on tv because I don't watch tv at night... but the dvds are coming out next week! Go Ken Burns... loved the Jazz series!

[paper]

Half hour to go. Who's ready to get sad?!

[labor_days]

I bet someone will somberly read a touching letter from a homesick soldier.

[six-gun]

wait, I... don't... get... PBS...???!?!?!?!? Noooooooooo!

[paper]

Who doesn't get PBS?

[six-gun]

Who doesn't get PBS?

Direct TV Costumers without a local package

[acomicbookgirl]

Direct TV Costumers without a local package

Wait.. You don't get PBS? :confused: Ok..

[paper]

You don't have local reception otherwise?

[paper]

Don't bother. This is boring as hell.

[labor_days]

Direct TV Costumers without a local package

If you aren't opposed to torrents, you can always download the show about an hour or two after it airs.

[labor_days]

Don't bother. This is boring as hell.
It's alriiight so far.

If anyone is interested in actual good film making that isn't American-centric, check out World At War (http://www.amazon.com/World-War-30th-Anniversary/dp/B0002F6AH0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-1054921-6594863?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1190587909&sr=8-1).

http://img01.picoodle.com/img/img01/9/9/23/f_51T38ZY8PCLm_707fe1e.jpg

Focuses more on an overview history of WWII and the politics of the time without the hokum and violins & cello.

[paper]

I usually like hokum.

[six-gun]

You don't have local reception otherwise?

I get 3, 9 and 12 but PBS is so blurry and the sound non-existent.

I'll get the DVD for Christmas

[six-gun]

Don't bother. This is boring as hell.

I'm ok with boring if it's done well and it's about history. What I can't stand is boring because it's badly done. I recently finished reading The Jedburghs by Will Erwin and hated it. The story of guerrilla warfare in France around D-Day should be enthralling, but it was so badly written that the book became almost unreadable. (Here's an example, he started about 50% of his sentences with "but", apparently the guy never heard of the semi colon.)

I still can't wait to see The War

[paper]

Mmm, semicolons aren't all that better. There's a section of that in A Man Without a Country. Which I've been reading.

You'll probably like it. It's growing on me a little. Started off a bit stuffy.

[six-gun]

Mmm, semicolons aren't all that better. There's a section of that in A Man Without a Country. Which I've been reading.


Frustrating isn't it? It should have been ye most enthralling book ever.

[paper]

I like it actually. It's a book of simple advice.

[six-gun]

I like it actually. It's a book of simple advice.
I was talking about The Jedbourghs

[paper]

Gah, my mistake.

Have you seen any good war documentaries, Six? (bringing it back on topic).

[six-gun]

Gah, my mistake.

Have you seen any good war documentaries, Six? (bringing it back on topic).

my favorite documentary last year was The Crusades: Crescent and the Cross on the history channel. It was fantastic.

[six-gun]

nothing immediately springs to mind on WWII, however the History Channel has done more good 1-hour shows than I can even try to recount, I'd recommend the special features on the Band of Brothers disc to be honest

[paper]

It was all worth it for the terribly unfortunate advertisement at the end:

"Corporate funding for the war was provided by..."

[conorkilpatrick]

I thought that was really well done, if slightly all over the place but I think by the end it started to gel, structure-wise.

Ironically, the best part was the tacked on end bit about the Latino soldiers that Burns put in to satisfy protesters. It had the most compelling story and the most heart wrenching moment of the night.

[six-gun]

It was all worth it for the terribly unfortunate advertisement at the end:

"Corporate funding for the war was provided by..."

that's so funny, yet sad all at once
how long was last night's episode?

[iSteve]

I'm Tivoing "The War" - don't know when I plan to watch it.

[conorkilpatrick]

how long was last night's episode?

Two and a half hours.

[esophagus]

It was all worth it for the terribly unfortunate advertisement at the end:

"Corporate funding for the war was provided by..."The legion in Grand Falls, Newfoundland has a poster up from WWII that showed a Nazi atop a missile, and I can't remember what it said. The nazi looked like this complete cartoon douchebag, and they were trying to say "weapons are good, if were killing these guys" or something to that effect. And it was absolutely hilarious, something you'd never believe were produced in a serious manner.

[sullivan85]

The legion in Grand Falls, Newfoundland has a poster up from WWII that showed a Nazi atop a missile...

This probably isn't the place to ask, but I'm actually from Grand Falls. Do I know you?

[horatio616]

The legion in Grand Falls, Newfoundland has a poster up from WWII that showed a Nazi atop a missile, and I can't remember what it said. The nazi looked like this complete cartoon douchebag, and they were trying to say "weapons are good, if were killing these guys" or something to that effect. And it was absolutely hilarious, something you'd never believe were produced in a serious manner.

I'd love to have a poster like that except with Jane Fonda on it!

[six-gun]

I got The War for Christmas, enjoying it a lot

[mikegraham6]

my roommate and i tried to watch this when it first aired because we are huge history buffs but we couldn't deal with it. It was too America-centric for our liking. The fact that the doc started when America entered the war kinda bugged us and it lost us us almost immediately. they should have sold it as America's War not The War. we were more than a little disappointed

[labor_days]

Mike, check out this post (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showpost.php?p=206578&postcount=23) on page 3 of this thread.

I agree with you. The War was too Americano-centric and played up the sappiness. Ugh.

[conorkilpatrick]

my roommate and i tried to watch this when it first aired because we are huge history buffs but we couldn't deal with it. It was too America-centric for our liking. The fact that the doc started when America entered the war kinda bugged us and it lost us us almost immediately. they should have sold it as America's War not The War. we were more than a little disappointed

It was a documentary about American soldiers by an American filmmaker - what did you expect?

[mikegraham6]

It's called The War and it started like the war hadn't been going on for 3 years. it was WAY too ethnocentric, almost insultingly so

that being said, we only watched the first 40 minutes

[conorkilpatrick]

It's called The War and it started like the war hadn't been going on for 3 years. it was WAY too ethnocentric, almost insultingly so

that being said, we only watched the first 40 minutes

The point of the documentary was about how The War effected four small towns in America. It wasn't an all-encompassing look at World War II.

[mikegraham6]

fair enough, that's not what i expected going into it though and i was really disappointed that he took such a narrow view of the war, he could have focused on these towns without leaving out OVER HALF the world!

regardless, im glad you guys enjoyed, just don't forget that the states weren't the only people fighting the damn war :mad:

[conorkilpatrick]

fair enough, that's not what i expected going into it though and i was really disappointed that he took such a narrow view of the war, he could have focused on these towns without leaving out OVER HALF the world!

But that's not the film he made. There are plenty of films about WWII, it's not like it's a subject lacking in coverage.

Also I'm not sure how you can make a film about four small towns and the boys they sent off to war and still focus on every one else in the world who fought in the war, but that's just me.

[psu18660]

I
It's a 12 part documentary that's over 15 hours long and I'm excited but also worried. PBS always puts these documentaries out to coincide with the start of the TV season and I know why they do this - when The Civil War premiered in 1990 it took a sizable chunk out of the networks' audience. It was a national event. The problem is that none of his movies have done that since - Baseball did a little bit and was definitely somewhat of a national deal, but Jazz landed without a peep. I fear the same fate for The War.

I really want to watch The War, but there is also a lot of TV I want to check out. I've got a DVR and it's going to definitely be working overtime in the next two weeks.

The War documentary is the best. Loved this series. I loved it so much I am even thinking about getting a Ken Burns haircut. If you haven't seen that it he has sort of a Journey/Steve Perry thing going on.

[six-gun]

The point of the documentary was about how The War effected four small towns in America. It wasn't an all-encompassing look at World War II.

He was trying to do what he did with his Civil War doc, give what could very well be the definitive portrait of the American's experience of WWII and for that, I think he did a great job (I'm only three hours in)

[six-gun]

But that's not the film he made. There are plenty of films about WWII, it's not like it's a subject lacking in coverage.

Also I'm not sure how you can make a film about four small towns and the boys they sent off to war and still focus on every one else in the world who fought in the war, but that's just me.


Plus, there's no such thing as an all encompassing history. There is no absolute truth of history that humans can grasp, and yet there is an all encompassing history. The key is in the debate over who is most right.

Historical philosophy is a passion of mine

[six-gun]

It's getting better, A+ right now

[mikegraham6]

He was trying to do what he did with his Civil War doc, give what could very well be the definitive portrait of the American's experience of WWII and for that, I think he did a great job (I'm only three hours in)

i argue that we are not sorely lacking in the field of "The American World War II" experience. In fact, i would say that 95% of the WW2 films i've seen have been about this topic. It's something that's very frustrating to a non-american. It was a war faught by ALLIES not one nation.

[conorkilpatrick]

i argue that we are not sorely lacking in the field of "The American World War II" experience. In fact, i would say that 95% of the WW2 films i've seen have been about this topic. It's something that's very frustrating to a non-american. It was a war faught by ALLIES not one nation.

Well then get some non-Americans making documentaries. You can't fault people for telling the stories they want to tell.

[mikegraham6]

im not faulting him in the slightest, im just telling you why i didn't like it. it wasn't the documentary i was expecting it to be and it disappointed me

[conorkilpatrick]

Okay, I can understand that.

I will now direct my generals to cancel the launch orders on Canada.

[six-gun]

It was a war faught by ALLIES not one nation.

If I ever become a famous comic book writer, which is honestly something that I don't want, my first vanity project is going to be a Catain America/ Wolverine crossover during the invasion of Dieppe just to make you canucks happy ;)

[six-gun]

so no one wants to argue historical philosophy with me?

that's fine, I'd p0wn you guys anyway ;)

[mikegraham6]

so no one wants to argue historical philosophy with me?

that's fine, I'd p0wn you guys anyway ;)

I've yet to watch Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iowa Jima but it really interests me that Clint Eastwood basically made two movies about the same thing but from the two different perspectives.
It becomes far to easy to look back at war and villify the loser, but too many people forget that they were just people like us, doing what their leaders told them was the right thing to do. of course there are exceptions, mainly the nazis who worked at concentration camps, but other than that, people HAVE to remember that History is written by the winners, and there is an entirely different perspective out there.

[six-gun]

and there is an entirely different perspective out there.

And they're all true and untrue at once! :)

That's whay I love history!

[labor_days]

I don't think it's totally a matter of the victors writing history anymore. To a degree it is true. The advent of informant being able to travel the world in an instant, along with the increasing globalization of such events diminishes that somewhat.

[six-gun]

I don't think it's totally a matter of the victors writing history anymore. To a degree it is true. The advent of informant being able to travel the world in an instant, along with the increasing globalization of such events diminishes that somewhat.

I've always found that the idiom of the winner writing history isn't very true. The loser has had their say for a long, long time

[mikegraham6]

sure, that's true now. but we were talking pre-1945 here. there was no internet back then people. when was the last time you read a history book written by the Gauls after Ceasar? That's right, you didn't! because all those books were burnt!
im glad the information revolution has somewhat changed this, but really i think your still hard pressed to find the two perspectives of war easily (especially if your in the country of the victor)

[labor_days]

I've always found that the idiom of the winner writing history isn't very true. The loser has had their say for a long, long time
Hm. I don't know about that. Centuries of vilifying conquered peoples, was very much a product of the victors putting their spin on things.

Only relatively recently has that been toned down somewhat. But I clearly remember my text books up till high school having a very Anglo-centric view of history.

[mikegraham6]

That's what i was trying to get at ;)

[six-gun]

Hm. I don't know about that. Centuries of vilifying conquered peoples, was very much a product of the victors putting their spin on things.

Only relatively recently has that been toned down somewhat. But I clearly remember my text books up till high school having a very Anglo-centric view of history.

I disagree, you have to remember that the Europeans lost and still wrote the definitive histories. All of our knowledge of the Crusades comes from westerners and yet tey were the losers by and far.

Going back even further, look at all of the history written by Israel despite their collosal loosing streak in the bronze age

[six-gun]

there's also the fact that, aside from Livy, most of our classical manuscripts come from Greek sources even after the Roman's defeated the phalanx. The same too for the late stages of the eastern empire when most history was written in Constantinople despite the city's losing struggle with Islam

[labor_days]

But they eventually won the cultrual war, no?

Becasue I don't see why new historians would look back in shame on the Anglo-centric view of history as filtered through the general populace if they did not. "Dem Injuns", as it were.

Perhaps in a academic setting one acknowledges Islam's rise in the Byzantine Empire vis-a-vis the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire. Sure.

But what sort of rhetoric led to Western schoolchildren believing the Romans brought culture to the heathens and that there was little of note outside of Rome?

That stuff, in popualr and philosophical thought, persisted for a good long while and has been leveraged in one form or another to claim superiority over these peoples or that.

Jesus, I recall my 7th grade teaching calling the Germans "Huns" when teaching WWII.

[six-gun]

But they eventually won the cultrual war, no?

Becasue I don't see why new historians would look back in shame on the Anglo-centric view of history as filtered through the general populace if they did not. "Dem Injuns", as it were.

Perhaps in a academic setting one acknowledges Islam's rise in the Byzantine Empire vis-a-vis the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire. Sure.

But what sort of rhetoric led to Western schoolchildren believing the Romans brought culture to the heathens and that there was little of note outside of Rome?

That stuff, in popualr and philosophical thought, persisted for a good long while and has been leveraged in one form or another to claim superiority over these peoples or that.

Jesus, I recall my 7th grade teaching calling the Germans "Huns" when teaching WWII.

I think that too much history is taught at too you of an age to give a true idea f what happened.

Highschool teachers get students filled with more misconceptions that solid facts

[labor_days]

Well, that's true as well. Hopefully, one goes about a deeper and more balanced sense of history on their own.

But how many people were content to believe "good work" was being done in the Afrika colonies despite the horrible atrocities? Or even in the east.

Hell, a lot of the tumult that we've see in following decades is in part rooted in those native people's animosity and resentment of them being exploited by their European overlords. Disgusting.

Indo-China, where you at bros?

[six-gun]

Indo-China, where you at bros?

They are the great foil to any theory of history. Especially geographic determainism

[mikegraham6]

I think that too much history is taught at too you of an age to give a true idea f what happened.

Highschool teachers get students filled with more misconceptions that solid facts

that's why i loved taking History classes in University. Basically you were asked to look at, not only at source material but artifacts as well, and instead of being told what happened, you were asked to give your educated interpretation from these first hand historical pieces. It was very very difficult but extremely interesting and thought provoking. it really helped to open my eyes to a different type of personal historical interpretation

[six-gun]

that's why i loved taking History classes in University. Basically you were asked to look at, not only at source material but artifacts as well, and instead of being told what happened, you were asked to give your educated interpretation from these first hand historical pieces. It was very very difficult but extremely interesting and thought provoking. it really helped to open my eyes to a different type of personal historical interpretation

I've been blessed with a History teacher who has a PHD in American history and has become like a grandfather to me. (he has honestly taken the place of a passed grandfather as much as anyone can)

Thanks to him I've read: Dante, Livy, Plato, Aristotle, Martin Luther, Erasmus, Herodotus, Calvin, Vassari, Boccacio, Machiavelli and modern writers like Cahill, Borstein and others.

He more than any other teacher has made me into the man (well, 17 year old) I am today.

[labor_days]

Herodotus, haha. So boring.

Though for whatever reason, I enjoy the Protestants a fair bit. Calvin and Luther are great thinkers. Admittedly, though I disagree with a lot of their logical arguments in much the same way Aquinas and later on, Locke frustrate me.

edit: Though one can make that argument when judging such thinkers through the filter of how every many 100's of years of philosophical and historical buildup. But I'd be lying if I didn't say Spinoza engaged me deeply.