Ipad vs linux.

[phatlip]

Originally Posted by computoman

To really use the pad effectively, you will be spending close to a grand for all the bells and whistles.

As Token pointed out, this isn't true. You mentioned the docking station in your other post. I can't find a price for that on Apple.com yet, but I highly doubt it costs $371 for a docking station (assuming you get the $629 iPad).

Originally Posted by computoman

If can not not mod it, you do not own it.

I don't see how that's the case, but you can mod it. I guess you never heard of Jailbreaking or the folks who put Linux on their iPhones.

Originally Posted by computoman

For all intents and purposes you are renting Apple equipment and not owning it.

Um...how so? I bought a Macbook back in 2006 and got another Macbook Pro this Christmas. Those are mine. At no point am I giving that back to Apple. This makes no sense.

Originally Posted by computoman

I am not afraid of typing and still do a lot in the command line environment.

Same. But I don't want to use a command line on an iPod touch. I wouldn't want to on any device that's all touch screen. Why would you want to?

Originally Posted by computoman

A touchy feely computer does not really excite me. To me it is more of a limitation.

Then what's stopping you from using the Terminal in OS X (assuming you're talking about a mac). Nobody is forcing you to use the GUI. Use the terminal and issue all of the UNIX commands you love so much.

Originally Posted by computoman

Maybe that is why the Ipad has no usb ports........ and Apple has allegedly stopped support for usb devices on it's other equipment.

Every single solitary Mac sold has USB ports. I have no clue what you're talking about. The iPad doesn't have a built in USB. But it's (unfortunately) not a computer.

If it has a cpu it is a computer albeit a special purpose one. The top end ipad as I understand it was over $800 not including all the other add-on's, so the value you mention may be incorrect as I understand it. The regular macs and osx have nothing to do with it. We are talking about the IPad not regular macs. I no longer own a mac anyway. As far as owning it, you completely misunderstand. You think you own it, but if you want to mod it, kiss your warranty goodbye. You have lost at least part of the value you paid for it. That is my point. The fact that Apple only let's certain applications be used on the ipad amplifies that you do not own it..You have no clue what real freedom is. Owning the ipad is like owning a car with the hood locked down so you can not work on it. You have to get Apples development package to write software. Why no third party development packages????? The cpu is proprietary to prevent alternative os's from being run on the ipad. Apple is about as open as a closed door.

Anyone who disses Steve Wozniak (originally an hp employee) is just plain insulting. If it were not for Steve Apple might not be even around today. He almost went to work for Commodore. Mr. Tramiel has an interesting story about him. When the Apples first came out they were sold as kits and users were expected to mod them. His royal highness has just plain ignorance of computer history.


The original issue was Ipad vs linux. I have seen some tablets for linux but they were insanely overpriced. With the new arm and atom cpu's you will see tablets at a much less cost than the apple ipad. Third party development will skyrocket for linux based units over the ipad. I predict then the apple ipad popularity will hit the skids. There is already so much software available that can be ported easily. One of the reasons microsoft can not compete in the netbook market. There is so much free source code, which you do not have for the ipad. You do not have to have anyone's blessing to run code on linux except for some of the cellphones (nothing to do with linux) which is ludicrous. I can compile the same code for a variety of platforms without any real modifications. I can not do that for the ipad per se unless you use web based apps. The Ipad will have it's fifteen minutes of fame just like the Newton........ Besides if apple has it's way, you will not see linux on the ipad so the question per se is irrelevant from one point of view.

Something to watch: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/02...nor-v-autodesk

[tokenuser]

1/2 cup unsalted butter, softened
1 cup brown sugar
3 tsp. granulated sugar
1 egg
2 tsp. vanilla extract
1/2 tsp. baking soda
1/2 tsp. baking powder
1/2 tsp. salt
1 3/4 cups flour
1 1/2 tsp. instant espresso powder, slightly crushed
8 ounces semisweet chocolate chips

Cream the butter with the sugars until fluffy. Beat in the egg and the vanilla extract. Combine the dry ingredients and beat into the butter mixture. Stir in the chocolate chips. Drop by large spoonfuls onto a greased cookie sheet. Bake at 375 degrees for 8-10 minutes, or 10-12 minutes for a crispier cookie. Makes 15 large cookies.

[tokenuser]

Hope you had time to enjoy the cookie.
It is the actual Neiman Marcus cookie recipe, and not the one perpetuated b the famous cookie hoax.

Originally Posted by computoman

If it has a cpu it is a computer albeit a special purpose one. The top end ipad as I understand it was over $800 not including all the other add-on's, so the value you mention may be incorrect as I understand it.

So far you are correct ... however all the accessories are just that, accessories, and not need to run the machine, and non essential to its operation. Other "pad" type device will need similar accessories to achieve extended functionality as well.

Originally Posted by computoman

The regular macs and osx have nothing to do with it. We are talking about the IPad not regular macs. I no longer own a mac anyway. As far as owning it, you completely misunderstand. You think you own it, but if you want to mod it, kiss your warranty goodbye. You have lost at least part of the value you paid for it. That is my point.

I don't think you get the point. People buy things that are fit for purpose. You don't buy a stove when you want a dishwasher. You don't buy a car when you want a boat. If you want something to heavily mod, you buy something with a more open architecture. If it was fit for the purpose for which you purchased it. You own it. You have an odd sense of ownership.

Originally Posted by computoman

The fact that Apple only let's certain applications be used on the ipad amplifies that you do not own it..You have no clue what real freedom is. Owning the ipad is like owning a car with the hood locked down so you can not work on it.

I guess that over 99% of the population don't do mechanical work on their car. They bought the vehicle knowing that they would need to get a mechanic to open the hood. For the other less than 1%, I am guessing that a majority of them if they do want to mod the car, they get one that is readily accessible (parts, service manuals, etc), and don't go out and buy a Tesla.

Originally Posted by computoman

You have to get Apples development package to write software. Why no third party development packages?

That part irks me, but its a minor irritation.

Originally Posted by computoman

The cpu is proprietary to prevent alternative os's from being run on the ipad. Apple is about as open as a closed door.

Can you run an alternate OS on desktop/laptop Macs? Absolutely. You've said you did it yourself. Can you run an alternate OS on the iPhones? Sortof - limited Linux support (functional but not all iPhone hardware accessible by the OS), but hacked (jailbroken) firmware available.

But, why does Apple need to be open? Again, if you want open, look at another platform with a clearly defined, none locked down, architecture.

If the purpose is to mod the device, get something that has those options.

Originally Posted by computoman

Anyone who disses Steve Wozniak (originally an hp employee) is just plain insulting. If it were not for Steve Apple might not be even around today. He almost went to work for Commodore. Mr. Tramiel has an interesting story about him. When the Apples first came out they were sold as kits and users were expected to mod them. His royal highness has just plain ignorance of computer history.

Can't see anyone dissing Steve here. Its a pity he had his plane crash - he was never truly innovative after that event.

As for computer history ignorance (and I'll take it that the "royal highness" quip was aimed at me), take a look at your history.

The Altair was a kit computer. It was NOT designed by the Woz.
The Apple I which was designed by Woz - WAS FULLY ASSEMBLED, minus keyboard, case, powersupply, monitor. It was never sold as a kit. It might well have been modded, and I remember the Apple ][ (which Woz also designed) having a prototype board available, but I'll say it again - it was not sold as a kit.

Originally Posted by computoman

The original issue was Ipad vs linux. I have seen some tablets for linux but they were insanely overpriced. With the new arm and atom cpu's you will see tablets at a much less cost than the apple ipad.

Perhaps, but those that are in the business of building computers seem to disagree.

Interesting interview with Scott Lin of Acer Taiwan, basically he says:

Lin pointed out that designing an iPad-like device would not pose any technical challenges for Acer, but said such a product does not fit into Acer's business model.

No brainer there - they manufacture laptops for many companies, so they have the skills and experience to do it, and do it at an attractive price point.

BUT ...

Apple is able to support the iPad through its iTunes ecosystem, while few other makers, including Acer, have comparable experience in operating an online store, Lin noted.

Historically, closed platforms are typically limited in terms of scale and are confined to niche markets. Apple has built is business out of carving its own niche, which means that while Apple could see success with devices like the iPad, other players are unlikely to be able to replicate its result simply by copying, Lin noted.

However, Lin said he believes the iPad is unlikely to impact the notebook/netbook markets as the two products target completely different consumer groups.

Bingo. A CEO who gets it.

Also of interest ...

The vendors (ASUSTek and MSI) originally planned to offer prices pegged at 20-30% lower than the Apple iPad, while they generally expected the device to cost as much as US$1,000. The US$499 entry-level price has caught vendors by surprise and means they will now need to adjust their price scales even lower to attract consumers, the sources pointed out.

However, starting a price war at below US$499 raises concerns that any profitably will be driven out of the nascent tablet PC market, before it even has a chance to take off. Vendors are currently evaluating their strategies hoping to avoid price competition, the sources noted.

Acer realise that the differentiator in this case is actually the "iTunes ecosystem". Without that, the devices are just a commodity level product and since the iPad is already priced lower than expected, they need to find another way to make themselves stand out. Apple has iTunes and the iBookstore.

What do the other vendors have? An open platform is one (ie can run Windows or Linux), but what does that really mean to the average consumer (not the typical Rev3 geek, but folks walking into a Best Buy or Walmart)? Cellular (3G) access? Maybe - but Apple have sown up a sweet deal with AT&T on that front ... and you can bet "exclusive" was written into the agreement.

There is more to it than many appreciate. This is not just about the hardware.

Originally Posted by computoman

Third party development will skyrocket for linux based units over the ipad.

Perhaps, but the general market penetration of those devices will be minor.

Originally Posted by computoman

I predict then the apple ipad popularity will hit the skids.

I predict you will be wrong for the simple reason that noone else has the iTunes/iBookstore infrastrcture backing it up. Love it or hate it, that is a huge part of the equation you are ignoring.

Originally Posted by computoman

There is already so much software available that can be ported easily.

Very true. Take a look at the iTunes app store (you can get to it online now - no need to install iTunes). Much of that software (or an equivalent app) has already been ported, and is readily accessible by the average consumer on the street without the need for an esoteric commandline toolchain.

Originally Posted by computoman

Besides if apple has it's way, you will not see linux on the ipad so the question per se is irrelevant from one point of view.

I think you miss the point. Not every device in the world needs to run Linux to be useful to the person that purchased it.

This is not "Ipad vs linux" <sic>. That is a different story. There is (going to be) plenty of opportunity for putting a variety Linux distros on tablet devices. Your argument is for putting Linux on an iPad, and you are pissed that the Apple hardware is closed so you can't do it.

Try the cookie recipe it might calm you down a little.

[phatlip]

Originally Posted by computoman

If it has a cpu it is a computer albeit a special purpose one.

Do you consider your car a computer? What about your phone? I get what you're saying, but I think that's too general of a statement.

Originally Posted by computoman

The top end ipad as I understand it was over $800 not including all the other add-on's, so the value you mention may be incorrect as I understand it.

Yeah, but it's also the TOP END model. And even then, I doubt it would come to $1,000. I doubt a docking station costs close to $200.

Originally Posted by computoman

You think you own it, but if you want to mod it, kiss your warranty goodbye.

That suggests having a warranty is what determines whether or not you own something. Having or not having a warranty has nothing to do with owning a product. Following your logic, when the warranty expires you would no longer own it. Bad argument.

Originally Posted by computoman

You have lost at least part of the value you paid for it. That is my point.

I hate to break it to you, but if you installed Linux on an iPad you lost at least part of the value you paid for it. That's even if it were still covered by the warranty.

Originally Posted by computoman

The fact that Apple only let's certain applications be used on the ipad amplifies that you do not own it.

I understand what you're TRYING to say, but that isn't true. I own it. It's mine. And again, if I really want to I can jailbreak it or install Linux on it. Yes that voids the warranty. But that's sort of expected. Apple is only going to support THEIR own software.

Originally Posted by computoman

You have no clue what real freedom is.

Simmer down drama queen. We're talking about an Apple product.

Originally Posted by computoman

Owning the ipad is like owning a car with the hood locked down so you can not work on it. You have to get Apples development package to write software. Why no third party development packages?????

This is probably the only thing you've said thus far that's true. I'm not a fan of that either. This is important to you, and it's important to me. It's not an issue to most though. It's not a big deal though. Just don't buy it. You have other options. I have an Android phone and love it. That and they are coming out with a ton of Android tablets this year.

Originally Posted by computoman

There is so much free source code, which you do not have for the ipad. You do not have to have anyone's blessing to run code on linux except for some of the cellphones (nothing to do with linux) which is ludicrous.

The app store begs to differ. Over 100,000 apps (and counting). I suspect we will one day see more Android apps though. But I say that only because collaboratively, there will one day be more devices running Android than the iPhone OS. But that's simple economics.

[omikron]

It's funny how Computoman has a monopoly on the linux threads. I'll bet 90% of them were started by him so he could preach the gospel of linux, lol.

I could go in to a lot of rebuttals to everything he has said but I think it would fall on deaf ears so I'll just make two points.

1.) The iPad SOLD over 300,000 on launch day, even the most popular linux distro can't even come close to that amount of DOWNLOADS in a 24 hr span and its being given away for free!

2.) In the article that Computoman linked to the author cited Moblin as a big competitor to the iPad. I have Moblin running on my eeepc and if this is the big competition from the linux side, Apple has nothing to worry about.

Ah I just can't resist, it's too easy. Apple has never been pro open source unless it was to their advantage. Yes at one point they attended computer clubs and hacked together software but that was when they were working out of their garage, man. They never would have become the company they are today if they kept that silliness up.

http://patentabsurdity.com/


I am not going to answer Phatlip's much less anyone else's. diatribe of misinformation. I am sure he truly believes what he says, but I do feel sorry for him. I was able to re-engineer an os program on my computer today to meet my needs, I could not have done that legally with MS or APPLE fanboy mentality.

If you need an overpriced babysitter the ipad is perfect. Unfortunately, I want to do more than sucking nipples for a premium price with my computer. I also do not want to be limited to just one place to get my software or media no matter how much they have.. I have managed quite well without the itunes store since it was created.

It will be very interesting to see what happens with the Bilski case before the Supreme court. It will also be interesting to see what the rough draft of acta due out next week has to say. We are about to see if the US is going back centuries to pre Magna Carta.

Make Magazine: "If you can't open it, you don't own it." (this is true of software and hardware)

The Maker's Bill of Rights

Meaningful and specific parts lists shall be included.
Cases shall be easy to open.
Batteries should be replaceable.
Special tools are allowed only for darn good reasons.
Profiting by selling expensive special tools is wrong and not making special tools available is even worse.
Torx is OK; tamperproof is rarely OK.
Components, not entire sub-assemblies, shall be replaceable.
Consumables, like fuses and filters, shall be easy to access.
Circuit boards shall be commented.
Power from USB is good; power from proprietary power adapters is bad.
Standard connecters shall have pinouts defined.
If it snaps shut, it shall snap open.
Screws better than glues.
Docs and drivers shall have permalinks and shall reside for all perpetuity at archive.org.
Ease of repair shall be a design ideal, not an afterthought.
Metric or standard, not both.
Schematics shall be included.

Most intelligent people feel this way.

[uteck]

Just because I can't resist wading into this mess, I'll jump on the "I hate the iPad" bandwagon also. It's a small and slow wagon, but we like it that way.

I had some hope for the iPad to be something new, but as it is just a large iPod that is not very interesting to me. If it had a USB port or microSD, that might be better, but you have to buy a proprietary cable to pulg in any device, so I just get the feeling Apple is gouging people for every last cent they have.
Also the heavy-handed control over the app store is disconcerting to me. They allow some apps that violate their terms, but disallow others. Their is no openness or transparency in the app process, which just grates on my nerves. Apple retains the sole right to do with whatever they want with their products, even retroactively changing your device to suit their ends. Will people be able to say 'no' to updating their 3G iPhones because they don't want iAd, or will that be shoved down their throat because iAd will be a new cash-cow for Apple?

The specs on the device are not that great either. It's only 4:3 aspect, so even if you tilt it sideways, it can not do 16:9 without bars. Not much of a media device. It's wifi seems to be bit wonky, and more people seem to be returning them after a few weeks when the "ohh shiny!" feeling as worn off. But then it won't be the first time Apple fans have lined and paid to be beta testers.

At least with Linux I get more then what I paid for it. It works great on my G3 PowerPC iMac running Debian.