" This episode of I think envoy has brought you by square space."

" Netflix and GoDaddy."

" So who have watched them but the joker that -- goblet terrible. It. Or or let's consider -- absorbing man if -- A little -- total pulp and."

" Other news about family public discussion -- I'm Ron and has always on here -- and Josh you know he's got a lot I'm talking about. Superhero comics in superhero comic life heroes yeah and we did a show once superheroes and things like that he. He had. And they cut back. Well enough when you did this -- Pakistan. -- And scat solo about here what does the flip side -- it's okay on it forever super. It is a villain if not he's now twenty or thirty. And so really. You know a lot of the superhero comics did -- John is the strength of the villains and I think the villains have almost been lost a little bit going you know going for the not as a -- to be used to be. You know what was the neat thing about every Spiderman comic was. The new -- each comic and quite often a lot of these heroes of the past forty years have been defined by their villains. Yes very much so and rose gallery as important as the heroes yes definitely so I. I thought we takes time and and talk about. -- what makes good villain some of the things that we like about that you know late. What it is that makes that work and then you know we'll what some that some of the really good villains and possibly some really bad habits -- over time. On the so so what what do you think will -- sunny Mexico is a couple couple weeks months ago on like him an outcome -- to post that was about."

" Villains and looking and they're they're kind of two types of -- and the wins well look at it. Visibility who is purely evil and it and is a villain who's been misunderstood. Or misguided or just maybe a bad guy and that couple runs isn't stand -- for example it out doctor doom. Yeah lobbied so easy that passes for -- is a pitcher he's protecting his country -- some bad decisions while doing that red cell Nazi evil. And the motivation between the two. World domination. Revenge -- reed Richards protection in my country you know alert they're different things -- look at the -- and -- He's done some horrible horrible things but he's completely he sees it as he's a freedom fighters protecting his race you know not not wholly evil I think I see -- my allegiance yes yes that if a player because it did this theory kind of falls is only -- tomorrow. Norris couples are DC universe is -- DC -- to suck that's crazy some topics -- any accidents -- wondering what what makes a villain. You know what I just ahead."

" The campaign and later the fifth. I think a lot of us to do with connections to the character. I think really good -- have some sort of personal connection. Not always the really good -- usually have some sort of personal connection to take the something in that character. Admit is mirrored in the hero some the -- and to that yes today character not just go to bank -- again it's more like there's been more of those -- we're going to reverse last dash I. Not literally but like a little bit and a little is out of the joker but the jokers like is the bat man turned twelve you know he's like. He's of the re you crazy gotten into something of the something in there -- in -- and got an -- and and yeah we'll -- there -- has."

" Here's if you look at there's two ways that things work differently we take Batman and joker I think fit I think that when you really think Bennett got a lot of violence but his opposite. Now he's got it joker and it is it's it's such they're both crazy. Sort of and where is that man is the good guy but he's the dark. Joker is light but he's the evil guy and so they've they've forced off and so like that any of the telling -- a book that really sort of gather what that was about luckiest. But did this on the surface you know who who's really bad view of the clown when is the evil demon -- itself. Where is and so that they're not really connected to each other just ran across each other we're if you look at Spiderman -- problems is being is our you know have been around right and and -- over the years then. It's a whole other thing. Because there's a personal relationship going on net on did did did wasn't. It was a present from Batman joker for example -- venom even sort of works and that way -- that's that's sort of another way to do it."

" Then there's also I mean there's also sometimes jealousy aspect and you to Lex -- to -- relationship been at an afternoon and we Richards relationship where it's like Google and strives to be like be here again same level here on trails -- for -- as opposed to just electing it a lot of the really good villains."

" Our. Well there's the cycle of violence that retirement the joker -- we talk about like are preparing mr. is that we'll get to that. They're just. Bat (%expletive) crazy -- action. But then make them there's the ones. There's the ego trip guys and I think that those are which opens an extra. -- an Astro doctor doom is one the red skull is one Lex Luthor and it's it's spurned -- ego. Gone gone wild that it's you know like I world or universe nomination and you know I should be in charge didn't -- it really has to do I mean like. The culture it what's insecurity. I mean it Lex Luthor is all life which really all about -- security and a he so what needs to be the best series is he's second best. You know he's the smartest guy either is and he cannot get over and accept the fact that somebody better than him and that drives him nuts that. And --"

" So that's what -- way more interesting than just. I -- cash I had and then dust and man who and he needs to pay bills automatic -- classic -- excitement when he goes to the bottom boat bull (%expletive) sandman yeah. We'll -- Mandela wearing win with joker shows up red skulls of that you go all shook the -- goal you know that there's a difference of the level. Between the really scary good villains in this with the the classic but they're not as gaelic. For me to the level of it's terror we see them you know somebody that's going to happen you know you're able from the -- evil. I don't know if you know they're really -- hero whereas guys show up to not hurt randomly there's not going to hurt that."

" And yet when the smoke clears -- standing at the end of the into the room you'd -- and the vendors -- you know it's a notion you know you know versus versus just you know dealing with you know those that -- the leap right and -- love that profit record anyway he's he's all in her. I think that there are too many really strong villains. Like you know what I like by power level -- want to think about it lake. If these guys get their (%expletive) together even just a little bit there's really no way I mean when you take this tang. All -- what is the later canyon mortis you know -- for the altogether that was the premise wanted a meaning they said that was meant was that an organized --"

" On the premise. Crisis apprentice identity crisis in the premise vendors and a close -- but the point is that those guys can't work got -- let us."

" is all because there's always this there's always though the the tentative agreement -- don't remain don't screw you know where it's not a cereal and Arizona and LA -- like that always happens is by nature they're looking for that that ever element in the wilderness that's something that's that's happening and you look at -- branded -- with the hood yet he's. This. I'm going to make this work out for you got to do it this way and that's it's almost like what's not Arafat crisis of the would -- It feels like a lot of times the -- into the villain characters are. A lot more powerful -- think there's a lot more of those. Michael active X will -- by athletes who we don't -- you got except collecting and you cosmic level yet read the cosmic level and why do -- again back let's say black -- not evil he's hungry he's hungry exactly -- he's celestial being and a contract."

" It kills people its food I don't get old and may be his shortcomings he does listen."

" These -- is as if you -- this bacteria to food and harmful to you but it's America. I read that the lack this is not in the ideal not have a giant -- and I think that's good -- you what are you where to hit us evil. Well power hungry guests and -- north people -- Editing I mean I think it's just and you look at the motivations and look what they're -- it comes back to the difference between evil or just or misunderstood or not. If not acceptable by our societal sense well. Then there's this sort of the middle ground guys -- they make really good stories you take a guy like you're talking out I need -- now -- go. He's been -- all sorts of ways over the years it from from just evil guy. It prohibited evil mutants it's Richards of the title. -- and you look at -- movie which -- they think she's been like -- some controversies of nationalist -- various -- and the outlook is some sort of political kind of -- guess where protecting my skis yeah and it's it's -- somewhat manipulated the excellent if you take women you know. X-Men severely lacking violence. They've got a bunch of you know sour on -- themselves -- mister -- was kind of but it was never -- you know like. And this -- where we are right now Sid -- Yeah juggernaut is reform click next and just keep performing on yeah and I have a property exactly exactly which is weird -- belt fire club that has the -- that looks just saw something -- but but but but even -- Shaw is an evil in his -- just he's he's he's been in a manipulating power hunger. That's less -- of the -- X-Men good. Question but in the end there's there's questions about that -- but -- and I don't know there's certainly it. You know it's an equation it -- and let it matter you're right it is but it's a minute will you are talking about the sand manor area like has many good. There's ice gray area about that the knots but because of not scary for example in catwoman is is villain or historically what sounded more of that sort that all around but. She is scary and you were worried about what she showed -- because but which is is in and I was in the same category in the middle ground I would couples. Even though he's an expert he's he's -- crazy murder but Andy's got dispersal -- daredevil but he's he's a mercenary you are hooked I don't know. I yelled yeah and now he's a bad dude -- he's he's dead he's he's he's not aside from the daredevil connection. And there's a time when they're from rubles I was a random dude that showed up the digit and -- that that -- because of the -- did but he wasn't of the doctor drew level. Now that he's -- little beyond evil."

" He is that because it it got ahead of him. And a in this -- he isn't the same whether Lex Luthor is less of this consumer Superman and because of that. Nothing else is important -- to Lex -- the only thing that matters is that he best Superman it. And everything else collateral damage that doubles as a semi right I remember when I first read Kevin Smith's take on stumbles I was I was oh now he's a very very bad dude."

" Like if I came out came in one case -- Gaza itself for the romantic about sort of -- kill people for money. The federal CommScope 120 volts. Yeah like goodness because because this job I make it less evil just murderer was donated another evil you know I think they don't think that the -- really bad guys that's which just happens well. Yeah test and it never understood it well like it was the police for some than for wise guys have a theory that I want to share when you couldn't go to the police and a that's -- on understood. We're gonna take a break when we get back Johnson who says there about about our terror group of."

" Godaddy.com. Thanks for sponsoring this episode -- godaddy.com includes 99 point 9% up time. Tony 47 support of free access to hosting connection the placements all of a 33 applications sort of get the most from your hosting plan. And website you want to make an impact online godaddy.com has what you need dot com names as low as one dollar 99 cents. World class hosting fast these website dealers and much more. Looking to drive viewers to your video content and get a dot TV domain name and stand up in the crowd TV domains are perfect for podcasters. Video bloggers -- with something to say and -- bill now I'd godaddy.com. And let us not forget Netflix for the movie lover in your heart with over 90000 titles fast free shipping. And they wonderful use system Netflix is the place that you want to be for dvds. If you'd like to get a free two week trial go to www. Netflix dot com slash -- envoy and sign yourself up today."

" With a flash as though the flash is more so like DC here is affected their cities something that. Batman dolphins obviously after Batman Gotham flashing keystone. Is one of the main things and it's more like flash in the city versus the people who are terrorists in the city SO and that and the fact that those roads. -- I know but I hadn't even -- yeah -- zoom. And I he let us. Yes something read the -- is not right now but that's that is why these deficits in the red -- evil which is not a supremacy taking over the world and all bad idea but I -- like either confuse the rogues gallery would be good guys there well. I'm not. There's a difference I was in the difference between pure cold hearted. Hellfire evil little question amber kept it cold be so what if what if that's what -- single mom and in any and is standing to him in the money does he does he opt to save that mom -- does he opt to kill her -- the money more -- lets them on and not necessarily a good story it's. I don't know you next. I'm asked about it no question that's they do well but not all -- I think all of them I think that I think what you do is what that would be here -- are the pure evil -- oldest takes what -- doesn't need to because he's evil and but with those with the -- and allows you get -- momentary -- you get those characters especially when they way try to -- sometimes they're trying to do to get out of do well daredevil of openness -- doing daredevil look at some of those stupid level you know and gladiator elegant it is spinning blades but that. And that sometimes they're just guys who and he was like yeah like Portland retarded yeah and I was actually back. Yes but you know so I'm gonna figure that those kind of the question is is it mental illness or is it maniacal you know. -- what -- evil eye but I know people. Like joker and that's going off comics back nine here."

" took -- is here don't want all of there'll competitive with the joker is is abject fear and share things are really scary to me. Are things that cannot be beaten by reason there and -- to be my reason is no choice of the joker but to kill him that's the only thing they'll stop him he will never. Give up -- what else can be reasoned with yet of beyond blackest and can't address book like -- you know you can even reason with the refs call. You couldn't be -- out of it's killing you is not when his best interest -- joker will kill you yet no matter what he's gonna so that is for me the most terrifying yet thing about."

" And then Mora is sort of goes on with the joker of atomic they keep finding new horrible things that do. And I think for awhile a generation up too much and then and then later today. They toned him down so that when he did show up admit it mattered it meant something when they realize that -- aren't really freaked out by -- character as much as we hoped for. Joke. Let's you know then it's true though like for me that there's nothing scarier than the joker the other thing that's. It's and that it -- it make him an amalgam sit sit back man is that he does not powers. He's just scary because the fact -- isn't a lot of these so you'll leave it right because his mind is messed up there and that's. That's scarier than than anything I mean that's scarier than than they announcer whoever he's he's like yeah."

" Don't be. There was terror everywhere is very much of -- horror movies you know Michael Myers who is he but but really the joker freaky because all this comes and tells you when there's no reason why doesn't it just yet nobody really get a ten terabytes sequels there's no reason with the sort of happened -- walking no reason he just walked kills for no amusement of secularism and -- people say that. You know had a professor colleges and villains who had no response we're -- that's what you're --"

" You know the question is is he evil by his own perspective that. Like he's -- by our respective she's just doing what kind of nice not thinking this is bad this is why I'm going to do that's the societal -- I think and his organization. Obviously right. The -- they don't know when -- look into this. -- everyone else is saying he's just. A view that we will that I did in my dilemma obviously. Yeah I think he's truly evil because he -- live because he he gets in the its standing firm -- read about it crowded. You'll see what he had it right -- like about the daredevil bull's -- which which is the great that'd be great -- with with you know -- they're gone back and -- also and -- bulls as laid up in the hospital and they're -- comes -- he's not a gun in it and I don't can't do because he won't cross the line that Saddam is probably. Never put the reason they never put joker to death. Out there's no death penalty and in DC you but it's because he's missing. So it's not fault but yeah I guess theoretically which skipper which is free he's actually very scary. I think I would agree with the degenerative -- it is sort of if I was having is that. While. For me yeah except for marvel. Superheroes and I guess I like their heroes more because they're more nuanced at times and that's that's -- generation is we don't need to make but. For me DC villains. And then the marveled at its. -- can you think about that the joker he got Lex Luthor or in the both humans I should note you know -- you've got. Like those kind of dark side dark side which is not human is scary because again. There's no reasoning went dark side these guys shipped out of power I was on the -- but I mean -- level Lebanon on the shelf right by. It but put an -- beyond beyond Lutheran joker two face to face surfaces that are. Stroke. It's not relevant it's. It grows doubted and is trying to DC marvel -- active in and his because I think but I think for every for every DC villain there isn't a mountain on the marble -- that sheriff but I mean I may just -- and and reading them. Well one thing is whether reasons that I say that of -- what does that say is that a lot of the let's say the Justice League seven or whatever they're. Light really they stand for good they're just sort of shining beacons of not. And it by making their villains. All the more scary. Contrast is really -- is an easy -- yeah. NN and that's the difference in two companies is any the war one of the is that there's -- there's more you can you can questioned you can question in marble where you know wolverine kills right now let you know -- and -- a lot of DC heroes I guess who like wolverine. It amount. Known -- he disease that if hero is the general bodies that are okay that's great news. He's he started in the lyrics of things like wolverine you don't like Jason as a lot of it would never read comics and -- you've dropped rather really -- was -- amount will be what. I mean it's because I can't think of any marvel villains like that. I mean the reds -- me is that is the best example again he's human blah -- But -- just pure evil bad scary -- they get seems to me like there's a lot of modeled on the Marlins are a little Courtney -- elegant doctor do. -- Now before that they when they took admissible look at what he can actually do and how does work in real life. Andy and aliases and talking about the -- man who is joke before that -- still meant to deal that. The conference of genuinely scary and mean he really messes her up and means innocence I don't believe."

" Yes he yes he does and he was on the rafts whenever he's out but we never see a very easily I think obviously. Mastermind on the expense side which I think has been an under used Millen has that evil -- do what he's doing he's dropping his illusions I'm really -- screw with people. And messed up a -- when -- next -- a mess ovens but nobody came back Obama isn't yet on stuff that's I've read comics but if you look at if you if you -- you forget about the Phoenix often look at what he did. In that meeting up to it and it was some pretty sick stuff and yeah."

" Oh yeah thinks that the euros and you see a more balanced the villains and marveled that the more of them are more bit louder more bombastic the yeah don't intend to work case yes they they're there those sort of like. I'm the villain right or like move on leader of the C whereas the marvel heroes -- gritty here and -- of these are all of generalizations whereas."

" Any -- the gritty irritated look outwards and these these changes you go -- time it is what they're like right now but I suppose you know like like they've done a lot of good where -- threats calls a great one -- you're already a major -- to -- cosmic cube so that you know. Really messed up dude plus the cosmic -- London and is now is his early so we comets are built -- of -- yes he's out of -- for obvious -- You know on the Internet and coming -- all the creators yeah you know we're scary. The -- termites. Relativism area Alison Alison I just like other. But it did talk about -- DC is you know not the only one of the -- that's scary. They are of really they're all Superman net and they go to take over the world depicted in the right thickness. Let's have some serious stuff that's bad stuff why -- let -- slices through and so much people love -- for the Baghdad because it's it's do what you can we can never intended as a fan as the ultimate fantasy type thing this is like all the heat into the vampire in Alabama and did you think you're probably about -- root for the violence that is I don't have the -- I think civil rights of people like people like the more true nothing's the matter I -- I think that they also exceeded anguishing of that like I think that she could not evil just dozens. -- this you only apparel martyrs the businessmen. He does have another side where he was in love his wife and and yes I mean I don't know me beyond jokers like pure evil right what everyone even -- and its gulf. The threats that evil but because like he went on a nervous I think is that if not -- let's let me know there's nothing at -- on every moment that the accounting problem -- still -- and slow shop for clothes. Evil he he usually goes to the movie was evil movies. If you -- is evil TV he goes for evil walks what about we just try to balance the budget expert isn't evil budgeted for protection. Could this all else Linda it's -- someone else does that he plays evil solid -- the sleeves up with the guys today and general manager. And as -- follows that up and hasn't evils of -- and I think every there's if there's a lot of there's not a pure evil and marvel. Does not as much that they and everything is inevitable as the gray area -- and that's and they they or the more militant Arabs on the board goofy that I -- I think I think a lot of those films didn't hold up. As well or religious war -- from the sixties and -- yes they are they weren't adjusted properly which is starting to happen now I mean when you and you look at this stuff that's happening. Informally as a good example -- aggravated it Tamara revamp Leo yeah before those two guys crystal card who like they would show we need to like kitty. -- And nobody who. You liken it almost can't -- you know and and and marvel films like about recognition. DC was I had. Of that I think in in making their villains scary when you look at you know identity crisis of my dad later and we can go on and on about sir how does but if you want to weigh in on the debate on eighteen also talk about him but I come. You could. Call the voicemail and leave the sinister messages -- is less than thirty seconds at AT and boys -- 66 accept it."

" And you can go to let him or not probably post about this show you can talk about who your favorite villains aren't wise and you can also check out our weekly audio show a couple of new books the week. And uterus through dot com slash I fan boys and you can see your post about the threat of forms are also there."

" You know who doesn't have a very good don't tell the whole. Because he basically -- is that there is -- The leader the monster inside them exactly. How Google's. -- let's -- Thomas. Voluntarily come to light in the net now."

" This episode of I think envoy has brought you by square space."

" Netflix and GoDaddy."

" So who have watched them but the joker that -- goblet terrible. It. Or or let's consider -- absorbing man if -- A little -- total pulp and."

" Other news about family public discussion -- I'm Ron and has always on here -- and Josh you know he's got a lot I'm talking about. Superhero comics in superhero comic life heroes yeah and we did a show once superheroes and things like that he. He had. And they cut back. Well enough when you did this -- Pakistan. -- And scat solo about here what does the flip side -- it's okay on it forever super. It is a villain if not he's now twenty or thirty. And so really. You know a lot of the superhero comics did -- John is the strength of the villains and I think the villains have almost been lost a little bit going you know going for the not as a -- to be used to be. You know what was the neat thing about every Spiderman comic was. The new -- each comic and quite often a lot of these heroes of the past forty years have been defined by their villains. Yes very much so and rose gallery as important as the heroes yes definitely so I. I thought we takes time and and talk about. -- what makes good villain some of the things that we like about that you know late. What it is that makes that work and then you know we'll what some that some of the really good villains and possibly some really bad habits -- over time. On the so so what what do you think will -- sunny Mexico is a couple couple weeks months ago on like him an outcome -- to post that was about."

" Villains and looking and they're they're kind of two types of -- and the wins well look at it. Visibility who is purely evil and it and is a villain who's been misunderstood. Or misguided or just maybe a bad guy and that couple runs isn't stand -- for example it out doctor doom. Yeah lobbied so easy that passes for -- is a pitcher he's protecting his country -- some bad decisions while doing that red cell Nazi evil. And the motivation between the two. World domination. Revenge -- reed Richards protection in my country you know alert they're different things -- look at the -- and -- He's done some horrible horrible things but he's completely he sees it as he's a freedom fighters protecting his race you know not not wholly evil I think I see -- my allegiance yes yes that if a player because it did this theory kind of falls is only -- tomorrow. Norris couples are DC universe is -- DC -- to suck that's crazy some topics -- any accidents -- wondering what what makes a villain. You know what I just ahead."

" The campaign and later the fifth. I think a lot of us to do with connections to the character. I think really good -- have some sort of personal connection. Not always the really good -- usually have some sort of personal connection to take the something in that character. Admit is mirrored in the hero some the -- and to that yes today character not just go to bank -- again it's more like there's been more of those -- we're going to reverse last dash I. Not literally but like a little bit and a little is out of the joker but the jokers like is the bat man turned twelve you know he's like. He's of the re you crazy gotten into something of the something in there -- in -- and got an -- and and yeah we'll -- there -- has."

" Here's if you look at there's two ways that things work differently we take Batman and joker I think fit I think that when you really think Bennett got a lot of violence but his opposite. Now he's got it joker and it is it's it's such they're both crazy. Sort of and where is that man is the good guy but he's the dark. Joker is light but he's the evil guy and so they've they've forced off and so like that any of the telling -- a book that really sort of gather what that was about luckiest. But did this on the surface you know who who's really bad view of the clown when is the evil demon -- itself. Where is and so that they're not really connected to each other just ran across each other we're if you look at Spiderman -- problems is being is our you know have been around right and and -- over the years then. It's a whole other thing. Because there's a personal relationship going on net on did did did wasn't. It was a present from Batman joker for example -- venom even sort of works and that way -- that's that's sort of another way to do it."

" Then there's also I mean there's also sometimes jealousy aspect and you to Lex -- to -- relationship been at an afternoon and we Richards relationship where it's like Google and strives to be like be here again same level here on trails -- for -- as opposed to just electing it a lot of the really good villains."

" Our. Well there's the cycle of violence that retirement the joker -- we talk about like are preparing mr. is that we'll get to that. They're just. Bat (%expletive) crazy -- action. But then make them there's the ones. There's the ego trip guys and I think that those are which opens an extra. -- an Astro doctor doom is one the red skull is one Lex Luthor and it's it's spurned -- ego. Gone gone wild that it's you know like I world or universe nomination and you know I should be in charge didn't -- it really has to do I mean like. The culture it what's insecurity. I mean it Lex Luthor is all life which really all about -- security and a he so what needs to be the best series is he's second best. You know he's the smartest guy either is and he cannot get over and accept the fact that somebody better than him and that drives him nuts that. And --"

" So that's what -- way more interesting than just. I -- cash I had and then dust and man who and he needs to pay bills automatic -- classic -- excitement when he goes to the bottom boat bull (%expletive) sandman yeah. We'll -- Mandela wearing win with joker shows up red skulls of that you go all shook the -- goal you know that there's a difference of the level. Between the really scary good villains in this with the the classic but they're not as gaelic. For me to the level of it's terror we see them you know somebody that's going to happen you know you're able from the -- evil. I don't know if you know they're really -- hero whereas guys show up to not hurt randomly there's not going to hurt that."

" And yet when the smoke clears -- standing at the end of the into the room you'd -- and the vendors -- you know it's a notion you know you know versus versus just you know dealing with you know those that -- the leap right and -- love that profit record anyway he's he's all in her. I think that there are too many really strong villains. Like you know what I like by power level -- want to think about it lake. If these guys get their (%expletive) together even just a little bit there's really no way I mean when you take this tang. All -- what is the later canyon mortis you know -- for the altogether that was the premise wanted a meaning they said that was meant was that an organized --"

" On the premise. Crisis apprentice identity crisis in the premise vendors and a close -- but the point is that those guys can't work got -- let us."

" is all because there's always this there's always though the the tentative agreement -- don't remain don't screw you know where it's not a cereal and Arizona and LA -- like that always happens is by nature they're looking for that that ever element in the wilderness that's something that's that's happening and you look at -- branded -- with the hood yet he's. This. I'm going to make this work out for you got to do it this way and that's it's almost like what's not Arafat crisis of the would -- It feels like a lot of times the -- into the villain characters are. A lot more powerful -- think there's a lot more of those. Michael active X will -- by athletes who we don't -- you got except collecting and you cosmic level yet read the cosmic level and why do -- again back let's say black -- not evil he's hungry he's hungry exactly -- he's celestial being and a contract."

" It kills people its food I don't get old and may be his shortcomings he does listen."

" These -- is as if you -- this bacteria to food and harmful to you but it's America. I read that the lack this is not in the ideal not have a giant -- and I think that's good -- you what are you where to hit us evil. Well power hungry guests and -- north people -- Editing I mean I think it's just and you look at the motivations and look what they're -- it comes back to the difference between evil or just or misunderstood or not. If not acceptable by our societal sense well. Then there's this sort of the middle ground guys -- they make really good stories you take a guy like you're talking out I need -- now -- go. He's been -- all sorts of ways over the years it from from just evil guy. It prohibited evil mutants it's Richards of the title. -- and you look at -- movie which -- they think she's been like -- some controversies of nationalist -- various -- and the outlook is some sort of political kind of -- guess where protecting my skis yeah and it's it's -- somewhat manipulated the excellent if you take women you know. X-Men severely lacking violence. They've got a bunch of you know sour on -- themselves -- mister -- was kind of but it was never -- you know like. And this -- where we are right now Sid -- Yeah juggernaut is reform click next and just keep performing on yeah and I have a property exactly exactly which is weird -- belt fire club that has the -- that looks just saw something -- but but but but even -- Shaw is an evil in his -- just he's he's he's been in a manipulating power hunger. That's less -- of the -- X-Men good. Question but in the end there's there's questions about that -- but -- and I don't know there's certainly it. You know it's an equation it -- and let it matter you're right it is but it's a minute will you are talking about the sand manor area like has many good. There's ice gray area about that the knots but because of not scary for example in catwoman is is villain or historically what sounded more of that sort that all around but. She is scary and you were worried about what she showed -- because but which is is in and I was in the same category in the middle ground I would couples. Even though he's an expert he's he's -- crazy murder but Andy's got dispersal -- daredevil but he's he's a mercenary you are hooked I don't know. I yelled yeah and now he's a bad dude -- he's he's dead he's he's he's not aside from the daredevil connection. And there's a time when they're from rubles I was a random dude that showed up the digit and -- that that -- because of the -- did but he wasn't of the doctor drew level. Now that he's -- little beyond evil."

" He is that because it it got ahead of him. And a in this -- he isn't the same whether Lex Luthor is less of this consumer Superman and because of that. Nothing else is important -- to Lex -- the only thing that matters is that he best Superman it. And everything else collateral damage that doubles as a semi right I remember when I first read Kevin Smith's take on stumbles I was I was oh now he's a very very bad dude."

" Like if I came out came in one case -- Gaza itself for the romantic about sort of -- kill people for money. The federal CommScope 120 volts. Yeah like goodness because because this job I make it less evil just murderer was donated another evil you know I think they don't think that the -- really bad guys that's which just happens well. Yeah test and it never understood it well like it was the police for some than for wise guys have a theory that I want to share when you couldn't go to the police and a that's -- on understood. We're gonna take a break when we get back Johnson who says there about about our terror group of."

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" With a flash as though the flash is more so like DC here is affected their cities something that. Batman dolphins obviously after Batman Gotham flashing keystone. Is one of the main things and it's more like flash in the city versus the people who are terrorists in the city SO and that and the fact that those roads. -- I know but I hadn't even -- yeah -- zoom. And I he let us. Yes something read the -- is not right now but that's that is why these deficits in the red -- evil which is not a supremacy taking over the world and all bad idea but I -- like either confuse the rogues gallery would be good guys there well. I'm not. There's a difference I was in the difference between pure cold hearted. Hellfire evil little question amber kept it cold be so what if what if that's what -- single mom and in any and is standing to him in the money does he does he opt to save that mom -- does he opt to kill her -- the money more -- lets them on and not necessarily a good story it's. I don't know you next. I'm asked about it no question that's they do well but not all -- I think all of them I think that I think what you do is what that would be here -- are the pure evil -- oldest takes what -- doesn't need to because he's evil and but with those with the -- and allows you get -- momentary -- you get those characters especially when they way try to -- sometimes they're trying to do to get out of do well daredevil of openness -- doing daredevil look at some of those stupid level you know and gladiator elegant it is spinning blades but that. And that sometimes they're just guys who and he was like yeah like Portland retarded yeah and I was actually back. Yes but you know so I'm gonna figure that those kind of the question is is it mental illness or is it maniacal you know. -- what -- evil eye but I know people. Like joker and that's going off comics back nine here."

" took -- is here don't want all of there'll competitive with the joker is is abject fear and share things are really scary to me. Are things that cannot be beaten by reason there and -- to be my reason is no choice of the joker but to kill him that's the only thing they'll stop him he will never. Give up -- what else can be reasoned with yet of beyond blackest and can't address book like -- you know you can even reason with the refs call. You couldn't be -- out of it's killing you is not when his best interest -- joker will kill you yet no matter what he's gonna so that is for me the most terrifying yet thing about."

" And then Mora is sort of goes on with the joker of atomic they keep finding new horrible things that do. And I think for awhile a generation up too much and then and then later today. They toned him down so that when he did show up admit it mattered it meant something when they realize that -- aren't really freaked out by -- character as much as we hoped for. Joke. Let's you know then it's true though like for me that there's nothing scarier than the joker the other thing that's. It's and that it -- it make him an amalgam sit sit back man is that he does not powers. He's just scary because the fact -- isn't a lot of these so you'll leave it right because his mind is messed up there and that's. That's scarier than than anything I mean that's scarier than than they announcer whoever he's he's like yeah."

" Don't be. There was terror everywhere is very much of -- horror movies you know Michael Myers who is he but but really the joker freaky because all this comes and tells you when there's no reason why doesn't it just yet nobody really get a ten terabytes sequels there's no reason with the sort of happened -- walking no reason he just walked kills for no amusement of secularism and -- people say that. You know had a professor colleges and villains who had no response we're -- that's what you're --"

" You know the question is is he evil by his own perspective that. Like he's -- by our respective she's just doing what kind of nice not thinking this is bad this is why I'm going to do that's the societal -- I think and his organization. Obviously right. The -- they don't know when -- look into this. -- everyone else is saying he's just. A view that we will that I did in my dilemma obviously. Yeah I think he's truly evil because he -- live because he he gets in the its standing firm -- read about it crowded. You'll see what he had it right -- like about the daredevil bull's -- which which is the great that'd be great -- with with you know -- they're gone back and -- also and -- bulls as laid up in the hospital and they're -- comes -- he's not a gun in it and I don't can't do because he won't cross the line that Saddam is probably. Never put the reason they never put joker to death. Out there's no death penalty and in DC you but it's because he's missing. So it's not fault but yeah I guess theoretically which skipper which is free he's actually very scary. I think I would agree with the degenerative -- it is sort of if I was having is that. While. For me yeah except for marvel. Superheroes and I guess I like their heroes more because they're more nuanced at times and that's that's -- generation is we don't need to make but. For me DC villains. And then the marveled at its. -- can you think about that the joker he got Lex Luthor or in the both humans I should note you know -- you've got. Like those kind of dark side dark side which is not human is scary because again. There's no reasoning went dark side these guys shipped out of power I was on the -- but I mean -- level Lebanon on the shelf right by. It but put an -- beyond beyond Lutheran joker two face to face surfaces that are. Stroke. It's not relevant it's. It grows doubted and is trying to DC marvel -- active in and his because I think but I think for every for every DC villain there isn't a mountain on the marble -- that sheriff but I mean I may just -- and and reading them. Well one thing is whether reasons that I say that of -- what does that say is that a lot of the let's say the Justice League seven or whatever they're. Light really they stand for good they're just sort of shining beacons of not. And it by making their villains. All the more scary. Contrast is really -- is an easy -- yeah. NN and that's the difference in two companies is any the war one of the is that there's -- there's more you can you can questioned you can question in marble where you know wolverine kills right now let you know -- and -- a lot of DC heroes I guess who like wolverine. It amount. Known -- he disease that if hero is the general bodies that are okay that's great news. He's he started in the lyrics of things like wolverine you don't like Jason as a lot of it would never read comics and -- you've dropped rather really -- was -- amount will be what. I mean it's because I can't think of any marvel villains like that. I mean the reds -- me is that is the best example again he's human blah -- But -- just pure evil bad scary -- they get seems to me like there's a lot of modeled on the Marlins are a little Courtney -- elegant doctor do. -- Now before that they when they took admissible look at what he can actually do and how does work in real life. Andy and aliases and talking about the -- man who is joke before that -- still meant to deal that. The conference of genuinely scary and mean he really messes her up and means innocence I don't believe."

" Yes he yes he does and he was on the rafts whenever he's out but we never see a very easily I think obviously. Mastermind on the expense side which I think has been an under used Millen has that evil -- do what he's doing he's dropping his illusions I'm really -- screw with people. And messed up a -- when -- next -- a mess ovens but nobody came back Obama isn't yet on stuff that's I've read comics but if you look at if you if you -- you forget about the Phoenix often look at what he did. In that meeting up to it and it was some pretty sick stuff and yeah."

" Oh yeah thinks that the euros and you see a more balanced the villains and marveled that the more of them are more bit louder more bombastic the yeah don't intend to work case yes they they're there those sort of like. I'm the villain right or like move on leader of the C whereas the marvel heroes -- gritty here and -- of these are all of generalizations whereas."

" Any -- the gritty irritated look outwards and these these changes you go -- time it is what they're like right now but I suppose you know like like they've done a lot of good where -- threats calls a great one -- you're already a major -- to -- cosmic cube so that you know. Really messed up dude plus the cosmic -- London and is now is his early so we comets are built -- of -- yes he's out of -- for obvious -- You know on the Internet and coming -- all the creators yeah you know we're scary. The -- termites. Relativism area Alison Alison I just like other. But it did talk about -- DC is you know not the only one of the -- that's scary. They are of really they're all Superman net and they go to take over the world depicted in the right thickness. Let's have some serious stuff that's bad stuff why -- let -- slices through and so much people love -- for the Baghdad because it's it's do what you can we can never intended as a fan as the ultimate fantasy type thing this is like all the heat into the vampire in Alabama and did you think you're probably about -- root for the violence that is I don't have the -- I think civil rights of people like people like the more true nothing's the matter I -- I think that they also exceeded anguishing of that like I think that she could not evil just dozens. -- this you only apparel martyrs the businessmen. He does have another side where he was in love his wife and and yes I mean I don't know me beyond jokers like pure evil right what everyone even -- and its gulf. The threats that evil but because like he went on a nervous I think is that if not -- let's let me know there's nothing at -- on every moment that the accounting problem -- still -- and slow shop for clothes. Evil he he usually goes to the movie was evil movies. If you -- is evil TV he goes for evil walks what about we just try to balance the budget expert isn't evil budgeted for protection. Could this all else Linda it's -- someone else does that he plays evil solid -- the sleeves up with the guys today and general manager. And as -- follows that up and hasn't evils of -- and I think every there's if there's a lot of there's not a pure evil and marvel. Does not as much that they and everything is inevitable as the gray area -- and that's and they they or the more militant Arabs on the board goofy that I -- I think I think a lot of those films didn't hold up. As well or religious war -- from the sixties and -- yes they are they weren't adjusted properly which is starting to happen now I mean when you and you look at this stuff that's happening. Informally as a good example -- aggravated it Tamara revamp Leo yeah before those two guys crystal card who like they would show we need to like kitty. -- And nobody who. You liken it almost can't -- you know and and and marvel films like about recognition. DC was I had. Of that I think in in making their villains scary when you look at you know identity crisis of my dad later and we can go on and on about sir how does but if you want to weigh in on the debate on eighteen also talk about him but I come. You could. Call the voicemail and leave the sinister messages -- is less than thirty seconds at AT and boys -- 66 accept it."

" And you can go to let him or not probably post about this show you can talk about who your favorite villains aren't wise and you can also check out our weekly audio show a couple of new books the week. And uterus through dot com slash I fan boys and you can see your post about the threat of forms are also there."

" You know who doesn't have a very good don't tell the whole. Because he basically -- is that there is -- The leader the monster inside them exactly. How Google's. -- let's -- Thomas. Voluntarily come to light in the net now."